Haha! Lucky I just put my own coffee down or I would've snorted it thru my nose!
Bill!, if a mystical experience is dualist because it is subjective, then what of satori? Although body and mind had dropped, Dogen could still recall the experience to recount it. I've been fortunate to have had a mystical experience that was as 'mind blowing' as any account I've ever read and language is simply unable to deal with the contradiction of self dropping away, yet still being subjectively aware of the experience. I guess this is why 'ineffability' is considered one of the factors of a mystical experience (James inter alia). I still consider that Wunen's koan of the ox-tail not passing thru the window as addressing this point. Mike --- In [email protected], ChrisAustinLane <chris@...> wrote: > > On the one hand I have to agree with Joe that most writers on mysticism mean > something non-dual by it. On the other hand, I have always said that with a > full blown mystical union with all and $5, you can buy coffee for yourself > and a friend. > > Thanks, > Chris Austin-Lane > Sent from a cell phone > > On Feb 19, 2013, at 18:56, "Bill!" <BillSmart@...> wrote: > > > Joe, > > > > Lexicographers are the keepers of our language and terms. Yes, if you are > > using a term in some kind of specialized manner it might not exactly fit > > the dictionary definition. If that's the case, and I do it all the time, > > you need to explain your particular usage of the term. > > > > However in this case 'Mystical' is not used in a specialized manner, nor is > > 'Realist' IMO. 'Mystical' is the term that does have the connotation of > > 'special' or 'eclectic' experiences. I didn't read the book so I can't say > > that's what the author meant, and maybe he does explain more fully how he's > > using that term. > > > > As for 'subjective communion', that's entirely dualistic. First of all it > > references a 'subject' which means there has to be an 'object', and > > secondly it describes the 'experience' as a 'communion', which also implies > > subject/object or at least multiple items/beings joining somehow. I do > > however think the lexicographers got this one right. A 'mystic' does > > believe he/she is in communion with some other entity - at least in the > > normal use of the term. > > > > ...Bill! > > > > --- In [email protected], "Joe" <desert_woodworker@> wrote: > >> > >> Bill!, > >> > >> That dictionary pair of meanings is simply incorrect. Lexicographers do > >> not have the bottom-line on this. Their catalogings are just that: they > >> list the common understanding and ways of usage. > >> > >> This word is a little of a technical term. > >> > >> The lexicographers are not good technicians in every field themselves, and > >> sometimes miss the scent. Their attempt at that definition is one very > >> good example of their incomplete surveying, despite their earnest efforts, > >> smarting eyes, and their green visors. > >> > >> The "subjective communion" comes close to my understanding and experience > >> of direct experience. > >> > >> C'ain't get no more direct than the subjective, nor the communion. > >> > >> The fact that it's subjective makes it so much more direct to me, and > >> makes it truly mine. If it's subjective to others, and is also theirs, > >> then we have a nice discovery in common. > >> > >> Bill!, this is fairly common knowledge, and is well propagated by the > >> writers on Mysticism. Not by the Mystics themselves, but the writers *on* > >> Mysticism, who try to tell us properly, by way of introduction perhaps, > >> what Mysticism is. > >> > >> They say, and I say again, that it is experience. And the most direct and > >> unmitigated. I do not interpose the word spiritual or religious in any of > >> this (but I appreciate that Webster does). I do not take Webster as the > >> authority, there: instead I take or allow those who study mysticism, or > >> who may be mystics, to inform our understanding (at least of the word). > >> > >> I don't say that this is the view of Science (yet). > >> > >> I can recommend again to review Underhill, James, and Bucke. > >> > >> Webster had his head in books, too, like those three writers, but he did > >> not talk to right people on this point, nor, I think, did his dharma heirs. > >> > >> --Joe > >> > >>> "Bill!" <BillSmart@> wrote: > >>> > >>> Joe and Salik, > >>> > >>> I'm sorry to have to disagree with you but 'mystical' does NOT mean > >>> "direct, unmitigated experience". It is in fact just the opposite of > >>> that. It is a mistaken belief that some illusory thoughts or feelings > >>> you've had were a real experience. > >>> > >>> Here is the definition of 'mystical' from Merriam-Webster Online: > >>> > >>> a : having a spiritual meaning or reality that is neither apparent to the > >>> senses nor obvious to the intelligence <the mystical food of the > >>> sacrament> > >>> b : involving or having the nature of an individual's direct subjective > >>> communion with God or ultimate reality <the mystical experience of the > >>> Inner Light> > >>> > >>> Neither 'spiritual' or 'mystical' have any place in zen practice, except > >>> as examples of illusions. > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are > > reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! 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