In addition Left a few off the chopping block . . . lol
Tantra . . . sorry, sexy business . . . I am okay with it, but it about sexy business -- supreme boning . . .etc I have no interest in Tibetan Buddhism at all, so no history. I do not lots of people who were with Trungpa . . . I attended a Comparative Religion conference in Dana Point one time and one of Trunpa's teachers was there. When we came in he was sitting in a chair immersed in samadhi, or supposedly . . . After a while I noticed that he was sweating bullets . . . stage fright. When he did go into the seminar lecture he rambled so badly that a friend of mine who knew that I could teach nudged me to help the poor guy who was getting devoured by hungry housewives wanting to know about Chogyum Trungpa and Naropa . . . Finally, I raised my hand, stood up, and told him I had a Buddhist background and offered to help. He was relieved . . . I began with Four Noble, Eightfold, etc . . . you, just an introduction . . . then he took over and talked about the cosmic dimensions of Trungpa. Native American -- complete goofiness on the part of Americans -- I visited the Navajo in Monunment Valley several years ago. The Navaho told me that their Religion does not leave the land and that all that Shamanism is nonsense . . . I asked them, so what are the whites and Mexicans doing in LA and San Francisco? They said, "wasting their time." I had to laugh. We wandered around Monument Valley the rest of the day then I went to the Watoki Indian ruins. I found the Ismailis to completely sane . . . very universalist and expansive. Chaos Magickians -- edgy and sort of interesting -- no control . . . but you better have a warrior spirit . . . these people are the inheritor of Chivalry Knights of old . . . armed with NLP, Science, Gnosis, Tantra, and a sort of Taoistic Cosmology. I have to say, I sort of dig their style. Wiccans -- if there ever was a made up religion, like Mormonism, or Scientology, this is one . . . supremely goofy and full of cultic control to the point of slavishness . . . I never seen so many people degraded as outsiders. /\ zendervish --- In [email protected], "salik888" <novelidea8@...> wrote: > > Joe > > It is interesting, both words, mystical and realist . . . as we see there are > those that claim zen/Zen one way or the other . . . I have witnessed > hard-boiled Zen cases that I practiced along side of that would express a > 'realist', oftentimes atheistic perspective . . . to them, these terms were > synonymous. Then there were those from the other side of the equation. I > sense that the author is perfectly aware of invoking both in the case of > Dogen. While I don't know how much Zen/zen is in Kim's work on Dogen, and it > is irrelevant to me as well, since I am just reading a book and sharing > something I am interested in. I don't know how much it has to do with my > wall-sitting, nor does it matter. Dogen, along with Ibn al Arabi, St Thomas, > Meister Eckhart, Hui Neng is just something I am interested in. Of course my > teachers have often spoken of Dogen, since my orientation to Zen/zen is and > was Soto, for whatever that is worth. > > I have read Underhill, Bucke, etc, I am not much interested in one way or the > other . . . sort of, at this point, for me that is, just taking the one seat. > I am sensing we are the same age . . . Underhill was the introduction to > such things in the sixties . . . and probably is relevant from a Comparative > Religious perspective. I was interested in this sort thing very much so at > one time, even practice Islamic Sufism and was in a Tariqa, but that has all > petered out for me and I pretty much back to where I started in the early > seventies. Zen . . . But I will relate something below . . . > > I have had a Gonzo experience with Religion for four decades. I am saying > that this wasn't all a diversion. I have a Zen Master who pointed at me after > zazen and said in front of the other students, "this is for you, (meaning > Zen)-- your wasting your time with that other nonsense!" So I offer this not > as a badge of honor, only as experientail history . . . During this time I > encountered Sufis, Hermeticist, Kabbalists, Fourth Way, so-called Gnostic > Christian Mystics, Tantrists, Vedantists, Native American, Shamanists, > Wiccans, Chaos Magickians, Gnostics, Ismailis, Catholics, > Neo-Traditionalists, Perennialists, and Jungians. During this time I usually > kept up a meditation (zazen) practice. I wrote a great deal about in various > places, and I sort of gained a reputation amongst those who knew me, as > someone who would go into the communities and participate as well as observe. > In time I plan to write an over-view of those travels . . . fortunately I > have lived in places where these sort of things are accessible. During this > time, nevertheless Zen Buddhism was always home . . . and I have to say, this > presents a problem to some . . . particularly Muslims, Orthodox Christians, > Fundamentalists, etc . . . I have even had Sufis, supposedly the > Universalists of Islam, come to the conclusion that I was a Kufr (heretic). > At that point some distanced themselves from me. I even went so far as to > study Islamic Shariah in a cross comparison to Buddhist Dharma, to see what > that modern exploration could turn up. I realize all this is post-modern > stuff, globalism of our times. Anyway, to cut to the chase, what I found, in > terms of tradtions, my own experience, with the Soto Zen background, doing > the so called field research in a Gonzo manner is this . . . > > I am now going to perhaps preach to the choir. > > Zen Buddhism has the least amount of excesses (guru, craziness, control, sexy > business, money control, personal control of family) than any other tradition > that I encountered -- the least along the lines of the amount of Cult > formations. Which is not say that we don't have our problems, us zen dudes. > > In the case of America and Vedanta . . . the nonsense is off the charts -- > fleecing the flock, guru worship, sexy business, money control, zaniness, > with absolutely hardly any grounding of tradition whatsover . . . all just > suprume goofiness. The amount of destruction created by Muktananda, Adi Da, > and so many other is mind boggling. > > Same with Sufism -- continuous nonsense, other than with Idries Shah's people > and Muzaffer Effendi and Hazrat Inayat Khan, the first Sufi here . . . the > rest is no there there. There is now a strong Neo Traditionalism running in > Islamic Sufism to compete with Wahhabis and Salafis. > > I have no experience with Taoism. > > Magickal circles, Kabbalistic, etc -- lots of cult nonsense. > > A reminder of cult definitions -- control of money, sex, and family. > > Kabbala - lots of cult nonsense > > Gurdjieff -- surprisingly fairly good schools where people come and go and > learn along the lines of science of the self . . . presence, what have you? I > know lots of good teachers that came out of the Gurdjeiff Foundation. > > Protestantism -- lots of control > > Catholicism -- almost a climate of irrelevance, unless you are in a Monastic > setting. However, the liturgy is a powerful awakening and there is much > Romance in the Catholic Church. > > Jungianism -- fairly open to exploration, hardly any control . . . not > religious in any sense, but they do good work, for the most part. > > Neo Traditionalism/Perennialism (Huston Smith and the boys -- Nasr, Schuon, > Guenon) -- apocalyptic end of times ravings along with control, sexy > business, and a preoccupation with end of times Satanic secularism. Really > out there . . . many Sufis with this cult. > > So, thought I would share . . . just my experience . . . and naturally, of > course, Zen Buddhism is home for me . . . so there is that. > > But I have found this -- no wonder Bill Maur (sp) rails against religion all > the time. And he is not even railing against the so-called insightful > esoteric aspects of Religion, but the exoteric dogmatic side. > > I can understand why Dogen went to China in the time that he did, complete > decadence in terms of folk religion, superstition, and corrupt monasticism. > Pretty much what I found out there amongst the natives . . . a great deal of > darkness . . . the equivalent would be along the lines of saying a deities > name and being born in the future to a better life . . . in the meantime, > nothing changes . . . > > Now we are back to Bill and the "Realist". > > /\ > > zendervish > > --- In [email protected], "Joe" <desert_woodworker@> wrote: > > > > Salik, > > > > Mystical just means by direct, unmitigated, experience. > > > > It is not faith (nor ratiocination, nor speculation, nor Metaphysics). > > > > I think the best modern literature about Mysticism was written 108 years > > ago, the number of beads on a Buddhist mala. By Evelyn Underhill; William > > James; and Richard Bucke. > > > > --Joe > > > > PS Kim's title is a brilliant one. > > > > > "salik888" <novelidea8@> wrote: > > > > > > Bill > > > > > > The "subject line" refers to the book > > > > > > Ehei Dogen, Mystical Realist, Hee-Jin Kim > > > > > > Nevertheless, I would agree with you though, so how about that one! . . . > > > Mystical is a word in our time that denotes something special . . . > > > usually it has something to do with "spiritual but not religious." Or > > > apologetics for certain Religions. > > > > > > Like the word esoteric . . . > > > > > > Enlightenment . . . how about that booby trap word? > > > > > > I am more from the school of "get your ass over there and sit down . . ." > > > Or -- "don't!" > > > > > > Samey Samey . . . > > > > > > Anyway, I am not big on the word myself . . . it has worn out its > > > usefulness, if it had any to begin with. > > > ------------------------------------ Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: [email protected] [email protected] <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [email protected] <*> Your use of Yahoo! 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