Merle, For the most part I agree again with what you've written immediately below.
I'd also like to 'butt in' to your dialog with Joe to give you my perspective using this mountain theme. I believe what Joe's been saying about a teacher could be analogous to someone who's already been up the mountain and offers to lead a group of inexperienced climbers up to the top. He can incent them, prepare them and lead them but he can't go up there for them. They must go up themselves, but not necessarily on their own. And yes, you can climb the mountain all by yourself if that's what you want to do. No one can stop you from doing that. ...Bill! --- In [email protected], Merle Lester <merlewiitpom@...> wrote: > > > >  bill... > > butting in i am..yes yes yes.. > > no one can climb the mountain but your good self...and remember after you > reach the top..there never was a mountain to climb... > now that's were your illusion song can come in... > > however be also aware as soon as you begin to sing that..you'll find yourself > looking at another mountain higher than the first one... > > and then realise something you've never realised before.....ho hum! > >  merle > > >  > Mike, > > This does make perfect sense, which as you know from my perspective does not > always warrant my seal of approval, but in this case I do agree. > > The Zen Buddhist teaching I received did not emphasize (and sometimes even > discouraged) the reading of the sutras. My training emphasized learning to > sit zazen, then koan study and finally shikantaza (although the latter two > were not sequential but overlapping). I've never said Bhuddist dogma, > doctrine or sutras contradict zen (realization of Buddha Nature) in any way; > I've only said they do not define nor totally encompass zen. I've always > said that Buddhism is the best religious expression of zen of which I know. > > It is said there are many paths up the mountain. Zen to me is putting on > your boots and backpack and climbing - the specific path isn't that > important. Buddhist dogma, doctrine and sutras are to me like sitting down > and studying a map someone else has drawn of paths up the mountain, and maybe > reading about what the view is like up there, but not actually getting up and > putting one foot in front of the other. > > ...Bill! > > --- In [email protected], uerusuboyo@ wrote: > > > > Bill!,<br/><br/>I think I'm starting to understand where our paths cross in > > all this (I hope!). Traditional Buddhism uses the sutras and teachings > > (most notably The Four Noble Truths and the Eight-Fold Path) to Liberation. > > Zen views these methods as potential hindrances to Awakening (being the > > finger and not the moon), so posits that sudden awakening is the best way > > (but not the only way) to realise Buddha's experience under the Bodhi tree. > > <br/><br/>I think this view is supported by many Zen masters as they often > > point out that *after* awakening practice is gradual and recommend reading > > of the sutras etc. to deepen the realisation. So I think we're both coming > > to the same conclusion about Buddha Nature, but from different directions. > > I must say that I have no problem coming from either direction as I > > practice both (Vipassana and Zen). I can fully understand why Subhana (the > > Roshi of previous discussion) teaches both traditions. They are > > complementary > > not antagonistic. Does this make sense?<br/><br/>Mike<br/><br/><br/>Sent > > from Yahoo! Mail for iPhone > > > ------------------------------------ Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: [email protected] [email protected] <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [email protected] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
