Merle, When the student is not ready the teacher will not be recognized even when he appears...
Edgar On May 3, 2013, at 11:32 PM, Merle Lester wrote: > > > Edgar.. > let me get it straight.. > i am not feeling sorry..i feel compassion.. > > jesus christ..i can't be everywhere in the world where help is needed..for > christ sake..and yes i do have empathy..compassion for suffering.. > > you just don't get it.. > > i do not exist..so hence no ego i am part of the greater self.. > > > do you understand that concept...? > > i help where i can and when i can... > > (i was a teacher of art after all for 30 years where compassion and nurturing > others was my everyday experience) > > as for jesus christ ..well is he not the flip side of buddha > > don't tell me jesus did not have buddha nature? > > buddha is jesus and jesus is buddha..that's how i perceive it > > don't tell me otherwise and fill my heart with a great sadness and my eyes > with tears because you fail to understand the meaning of universal love > > peace be with you > > merle > > > > Merle, > > You have what is called a Christ complex, you are empathetic to the suffering > of the world. > > I know as I had a severe Christ complex myself when younger. > > I now understand that the very DESIGN of the world by necessity INCLUDES > suffering as an essential part. This is because life cannot live without the > death of other beings so there is by necessity vast and interminable > suffering built into the design of the natural world. Enormous suffering is > is unavoidable and leads by its very nature to the life and thus the health > and happiness of other beings. > > As horrible as it is it's the way things are. Think of the Zen masters > sitting around laughing out loud as the world goes down the drain... > > That being said there is certainly a place for compassion in the form of > helping individual suffering beings and certainly avoiding adding to > suffering as much as possible. > > But as I told you before, feeling righteously sorry for suffering beings in > Boston or anywhere else does NOT help. It only adds YOUR suffering to the > total. > > True compassion is actually helping alleviate the suffering of individual > beings that you can help, not feeling righteously sorry for the victims of > the enormous number of abuses in the world... > > If you can help do help, but feeling sorry is not compassion and does not > help. It's just another form of ego attachment.... > > Edgar > > > > > > On May 3, 2013, at 7:46 PM, Merle Lester wrote: > >> >> >> mike:..my pain is the pain of the world..the sadness is the human >> condition... >> >> my own individual pain is totally irrelevant..if that was all it was then it >> would be easy.. >> >> i do not dwell on self but the greater self..the self of all selves >> >> the sadness is the sadness for the whole of existence >> >> i and the world are one and the same creature.. >> >> i am the great white pointer shark as i am the waves upon the great oceans >> >> get my drift? >> >> merle >> >> >> Bill, Merle, >> >> Now this is the kind of situation that I find Vipassana works better for me. >> It's easy to say not to attach to the pain, but it doesn't really say much >> (although it is true) about how to go about doing that. >> >> If I'm experiencing something like the sadness Merle says, then go into it. >> Connect with the physicality of it. Let's say there is a pain/heaviness in >> the heart. What kind of pain? Dull? Does it feel like a solid block of pain? >> Does it change? Move? Go away only to come back elsewhere? Does the pain >> affect your mood? Do you feel 'lighter' when the pain momentarily disappears >> etc? In other words, go really deep into it. Notice the effect it has on our >> body and mind - how they are connected. >> >> Obviously I don't do it at the speed above. And also it is mostly done >> intuitively rather than thru a discourse with yourself. I find that by the >> time I have say thru a session like this it is impossible to be attached or >> consumed by the emotion as well as learning important insights into >> impermanence etc. >> >> Mike >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPhone >> >> From: Bill! <[email protected]>; >> To: <[email protected]>; >> Subject: [Zen] Re: open mind? >> Sent: Wed, May 1, 2013 8:56:15 AM >> >> >> Merle, >> >> I agree with you on the former 'emptiness' and the current clutter. >> >> Just sit through the sadness knowing that it is not real. It's illusory. >> Don't let yourself 'attach' to it - that is buy into it and let the feeling >> of sadness define who you are. It is your illusory self that is creating the >> sadness. The sadness is not you. >> >> ...Bill! >> >> --- In [email protected], Merle Lester <merlewiitpom@...> wrote: >> > >> > >> > >> >  when i was a kid i always had an "empty" mind and i enjoyed this >> > experience and even as a kid sort of understood what it meant..believe it >> > or not >> > >> > now it is crammed full of "crap" and very hard  to practise the "empty" >> > mind.. >> > >> >  at the moment i am experience a very deep sadness..in the meditation..a >> > sadness that is engulfing me totally... >> > >> > merle >> > >> > >> >  >> > It even looks like one of the founders of Chan fell for it too! >> > >> > "Nothing is left behind, >> > Nothing stays with us. >> > Bright and empty, >> > The mind shines by itself." >> > >> > â€" Seng Can, third patriarch of Chan >> > >> > --- In [email protected], Edgar Owen <edgarowen@> wrote: >> > > >> > > William, >> > > >> > > Obviously some of this group's members HAVE fallen for the same Zen scam >> > > over and over and still do! >> > > :-) >> > > >> > > Edgar >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > On Apr 30, 2013, at 10:28 AM, William Rintala wrote: >> > > >> > > > >> > > > Empty Mind/Cup does not equal Empty Headed. Correct? Open Mind does >> > > > not mean absolute naivety does it. Would someone whose mind had the >> > > > qualities of Open and Empty Mindedness fall for the same scams >> > > > repeatedly? Would such a person be incapable of learning, of retaining >> > > > knowledge, of doing productive work? Aren't there stories of Zen >> > > > Idiots? >> > > > >> > > > From: Bill! <BillSmart@> >> > > > To: [email protected] >> > > > Sent: Mon, April 29, 2013 3:45:23 AM >> > > > Subject: [Zen] Re: open mind? >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > Merle and Edgar, >> > > > >> > > > I'm going to jump in here again to better explain what I mean by an >> > > > 'empty mind'. To do that I'll use the teacup analogy. I know Edgar >> > > > already knows the story but just in case Merle or anyone else reading >> > > > this does not I'll repeat it here: >> > > > >> > > > "A university professor went to visit a famous Zen master. While the >> > > > master quietly served tea, the professor talked about Zen. The master >> > > > poured the visitor's cup to the brim, and then kept pouring. The >> > > > professor watched the overflowing cup until he could no longer >> > > > restrain himself. "It's overfull! No more will go in!" the professor >> > > > blurted. "You are like this cup," the master replied, "How can I show >> > > > you Zen unless you first empty your cup." - Traditional Zen Story >> > > > >> > > > Using that analogy your mind (intellect) is like the cup. The tea >> > > > represents all the knowledge, concepts, prejudices, valuations, >> > > > associations, etc..., that you carry around with you. >> > > > >> > > > When I say 'empty mind' I mean a mind (intellect) that is free of >> > > > attachments to all the knowledge, concepts, prejudices, valuations, >> > > > associations, etc..., which you have previously formed. It doesn't >> > > > you've forgotten them permanently, but it means at this time of 'empty >> > > > mind' you are not attached to or bound by any of them. >> > > > >> > > > Using the teacup analogy it would mean each time you have a new >> > > > experience you do so with an empty cup. >> > > > >> > > > ...Bill! >> > > > >> > > > --- In [email protected], Merle Lester <merlewiitpom@> wrote: >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > >  bill...yes edgar..what is your interpretation of an open mind? >> > > > > can you clarify?..merle >> > > > >  >> > > > > Merle, >> > > > > >> > > > > Edgar and I cannot agree because we have a completely different idea >> > > > > of what Buddha Nature is, and therefore what zen is. Just why Edgar >> > > > > holds the opinions he does I don't know. I hold mine because first >> > > > > and foremost they are formed from my experience. Secondly they >> > > > > conform with what I've been taught - not everything I've been >> > > > > taught, but most of it. Lastly they correspond with what I've read - >> > > > > not everything I've read, but most of it. >> > > > > >> > > > > Edgar's suggestion of 'opening the mind' is fine. I don't think >> > > > > anyone would argue that having a closed mind is better. >> > > > > >> > > > > You'll have to ask Edgar to explain his idea of 'opening the mind' a >> > > > > little more. I don't want to speak for him, but I SUSPECT his idea >> > > > > of opening the mind is so you can start filling it up with >> > > > > knowledge, but that IMO is not the way to experience Buddha Nature. >> > > > > >> > > > > I could also use that phrase but if I did my idea of 'opening the >> > > > > mind' would be to start emptying it of illusions and prejudices so >> > > > > you can experience Buddha Nature. >> > > > > >> > > > > These are two diametrically opposed approaches. >> > > > > >> > > > > ...Bill! >> > > > > >> > > > > --- In [email protected], Merle Lester <merlewiitpom@> wrote: >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > >  >> > > > > >  bill!..maybe emptying the cup and opening the mind are >> > > > > > both the same thing..check with edgar...you 2 seem to be at >> > > > > > loggerheads over this..why? >> > > > > >  can you not agree to disagree?..merle >> > > > > > >> > > > > > No, I can't say I do. At least not entirely. >> > > > > > >> > > > > > Edgar's teacup is about 3/4 full. He wants to keep filling it up. >> > > > > > I'm advising him to empty it out. >> > > > > > >> > > > > > I'm not sure what he means by 'opening the mind'. That sounds nice >> > > > > > an new-agey, but what does it mean? Does it mean emptying his cup? >> > > > > > Or does it mean breaking his cup? >> > > > > > >> > > > > > I think he should just empty his cup and go from there. >> > > > > > >> > > > > > ...Bill! >> > > > > > >> > > > > > --- In [email protected], Merle Lester <merlewiitpom@> >> > > > > > wrote: >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > ÃÆ'‚ >> > > > > > > ÃÆ'‚ bill!..you agree with this surely?...opening >> > > > > > > the mind?..merle >> > > > > > > ÃÆ'‚ >> > > > > > > Bill, >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > Zen neither empties or fills your mind. The very concept of this >> > > > > > > dualism is incorrect. >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > Zen is simply opening mind to what is. It is pure consciousness >> > > > > > > of either the forms or the formless.. >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > And btw it is NOT "your mind". It is simply consciousness >> > > > > > > antecedent to any distinction of self and not-self... >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > Edgar >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > On Apr 27, 2013, at 7:52 AM, Bill! wrote: >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > ÃÆ'‚ >> > > > > > > >Edgar, >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >Yes. I'm afraid we have a fundamental disagreement here. >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >I think zen practice empties out your mind, and you think it >> > > > > > > >fills it up. >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >Do you want to Rock/Paper/Scissors for it? >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >..Bill! >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >--- In [email protected], Edgar Owen <edgarowen@> wrote: >> > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > >> Bill, >> > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > >> As usual you contradict the Zen teachings which I support.... >> > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > >> Edgar >> > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > >> On Apr 26, 2013, at 9:38 PM, Bill! wrote: >> > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > >> > Edgar, >> > > > > > > >> > >> > > > > > > >> > I see your problem now. >> > > > > > > >> > >> > > > > > > >> > You think progress in zen is measured in ADDING ON things - >> > > > > > > >> > like knowledge. It's not. You progress in zen by TAKING >> > > > > > > >> > AWAY things until you get down to Just THIS! >> > > > > > > >> > >> > > > > > > >> > You don't progress from Level 2 to Level 3. You progress >> > > > > > > >> > from Level 2 to Level 1 and then to Level 0 which is >> > > > > > > >> > actually no-level - Buddha Nature. >> > > > > > > >> > >> > > > > > > >> > You're trying to fill you cup up instead of emptying >> > > > > > > >> > it...Bill! >> > > > > > > >> > >> > > > > > > >> > --- In [email protected], Edgar Owen <edgarowen@> >> > > > > > > >> > wrote: >> > > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > > >> > > Bill, >> > > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > > >> > > That's Niels, not Neal. >> > > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > > >> > > Go back to stage one and get it right. Do NOT pass go! >> > > > > > > >> > > :-) >> > > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > > >> > > Edgar >> > > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > > >> > > On Apr 26, 2013, at 10:27 AM, Bill! wrote: >> > > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > Edgar, >> > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > *** Sorry, I misread your post below and Replied >> > > > > > > >> > > > incorrectly. I erased that but if you get the posts by >> > > > > > > >> > > > email you might have received it. If you did please >> > > > > > > >> > > > disregard. My corrected post is *** >> > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > What do you mean Stage Three? Neal and I are done with >> > > > > > > >> > > > Stage Two and and now ready for Stage One! >> > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > ...Bill! >> > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > --- In [email protected], Edgar Owen >> > > > > > > >> > > > <edgarowen@> wrote: >> > > > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > Bill, >> > > > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > Thanks for the quote in which Bohr correctly >> > > > > > > >> > > > > expresses stage two "mountains are no longer >> > > > > > > >> > > > > mountains". >> > > > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > Stage three is when those unreal illusory things are >> > > > > > > >> > > > > realized to be the true reality. Then mountains >> > > > > > > >> > > > > become mountains again.. >> > > > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > Both Bill and Bohr haven't reached that stage yet... >> > > > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > Edgar >> > > > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > On Apr 26, 2013, at 5:38 AM, Bill! wrote: >> > > > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > Maybe Edgar will listen to him... >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > ...Bill! >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > > >> > >> > > > > > > >> > >> > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > >> > >> >> >> >> > > > > >
