Merle and William, Just to clarify...
Adolf Hitler had Buddha Nature just as we all do; just as all sentient beings do. I don't think he was in touch with it though. Of course I didn't really know the guy so that's just a wild guess...Bill! --- In [email protected], William Rintala <brintala@...> wrote: > > Merle: the answer is yes. > > > > ________________________________ > From: Merle Lester <merlewiitpom@...> > To: "[email protected]" <[email protected]> > Sent: Sat, May 4, 2013 4:56:23 PM > Subject: Re: [Zen] the greater self > >  > > >  edgar..i know that... hey all this crap about buddha nature..was hitler > buddha > nature eh?...merle > > >  > Merle, > > When the student is not ready the teacher will not be recognized even when he > appears... > > Edgar > > > > > On May 3, 2013, at 11:32 PM, Merle Lester wrote: > >  > > > > > > > > > > Edgar.. > >let me get it straight.. > >i am not feeling sorry..i feel compassion.. > > > > > >jesus christ..i can't be everywhere in the world where help is needed..for > >christ sake..and yes i do have empathy..compassion  for suffering.. > > > > > >you just don't get it.. > > > > > >i do not exist..so hence no ego i am part of the greater self.. > > > > > > > > > >do you understand that concept...? > > > > > > i help where i can and when i can... > > > > > >(i was a teacher of art after all for 30 years where compassion and > >nurturing > >others was my everyday experience) > > > > > > as for jesus christ ..well is he not the flip side  of buddha > > > > > >don't tell me jesus did not have  buddha nature? > > > > > > buddha is jesus and jesus is buddha..that's how i  perceive it > > > > > >don't tell me otherwise and fill my heart with a great sadness and my eyes > >with > >tears because you fail to understand the meaning of universal love > > > > > > peace be with you > > > > > > merle > > > > > > > > > > > >Merle, > > > > > >You have what is called a Christ complex, you are empathetic to the > >suffering of > >the world. > > > > > >I know as I had a severe Christ complex myself when younger. > > > > > >I now understand that the very DESIGN of the world by necessity INCLUDES > >suffering as an essential part. This is because life cannot live without the > >death of other beings so there is by necessity vast and interminable > >suffering > >built into the design of the natural world. Enormous suffering is is > >unavoidable > >and leads by its very nature to the life and thus the health and happiness > >of > >other beings. > > > > > >As horrible as it is it's the way things are. Think of the Zen masters > >sitting > >around laughing out loud as the world goes down the drain... > > > > > >That being said there is certainly a place for compassion in the form of > >helping > >individual suffering beings and certainly avoiding adding to suffering as > >much > >as possible. > > > > > >But as I told you before, feeling righteously sorry for suffering beings in > >Boston or anywhere else does NOT help. It only adds YOUR suffering to the > >total. > > > > > >True compassion is actually helping alleviate the suffering of individual > >beings > >that you can help, not feeling righteously sorry for the victims of the > >enormous > >number of abuses in the world... > > > > > >If you can help do help, but feeling sorry is not compassion and does not > >help. > >It's just another form of ego attachment.... > > > > > >Edgar > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >On May 3, 2013, at 7:46 PM, Merle Lester wrote: > > > > > >> > >> > >>mike:..my pain is the pain of the world..the sadness is the human > condition... > >> > >> > >>my own individual pain is totally irrelevant..if that was all it was then > >>it > >>would be easy.. > >> > >> > >>i do not dwell on self but the greater self..the self of  all selves > >> > >> > >>the sadness is the sadness for the whole of existence > >> > >> > >>i and the world are one and the same creature.. > >> > >> > >>i am the great white pointer shark as i am the waves upon the great oceans > >> > >> > >>get my drift? > >> > >> > >>merle > >> > >> > >> > >>Bill, Merle, > >> > >>Now this is the kind of situation that I find Vipassana works better for > >>me. > >>It's easy to say not to attach to the pain, but it doesn't really say much > >>(although it is true) about how to go about doing that. > >> > >> > >>If I'm experiencing something like the sadness Merle says, then go into it. > >>Connect with the physicality of it. Let's say there is a pain/heaviness in > >>the > >>heart. What kind of pain? Dull? Does it feel like a solid block of pain? > >>Does it > >>change? Move? Go away only to come back elsewhere? Does the pain affect > >>your > >>mood? Do you feel 'lighter' when the pain momentarily disappears etc? In > >>other > >>words, go really deep into it. Notice the effect it has on our body and > >>mind - > >>how they are connected. > >> > >>Obviously I don't do it at the speed above. And also it is mostly done > >>intuitively rather than thru a discourse with yourself. I find that by the > >>time > >>I have say thru a session like this it is impossible to be attached or > >>consumed > >>by the emotion as well as learning important insights into impermanence > >>etc. > >> > >> > >>Mike > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >>Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPhone > >> > >> > >> > ________________________________ > From: Bill! <BillSmart@...>; > >>To: <[email protected]>; > >>Subject: [Zen] Re: open mind? > >>Sent: Wed, May 1, 2013 8:56:15 AM > >> > >> > >> > >>Merle, > >> > >>I agree with you on the former 'emptiness' and the current clutter. > >> > >>Just sit through the sadness knowing that it is not real. It's illusory. > >>Don't > >>let yourself 'attach' to it - that is buy into it and let the feeling of > >>sadness > >>define who you are. It is your illusory self that is creating the sadness. > >>The > >>sadness is not you. > >> > >>...Bill! > >> > >>--- In [email protected], Merle Lester <merlewiitpom@> wrote: > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> àwhen i was a kid i always had an "empty" mind and i enjoyed this > >>> experience > >>>and even as a kid sort of understood what it meant..believe it or not > >>> > >>> now it is crammed full of "crap" and very hard àto practise the > >>> "empty" > >>>mind..à> >>> > >>> àat the moment i am experience a very deep sadness..in the > >>> meditation..a > >>>sadness that is engulfing me totally... > >>> > >>> merle > >>> > >>> > >>> à> >>> It even looks like one of the founders of Chan fell for it too! > >>> > >>> "Nothing is left behind, > >>> Nothing stays with us. > >>> Bright and empty, > >>> The mind shines by itself." > >>> > >>> ââ¬" Seng Can, third patriarch of Chan > >>> > >>> --- In [email protected], Edgar Owen <edgarowen@> wrote: > >>> > > >>> > William, > >>> > > >>> > Obviously some of this group's members HAVE fallen for the same Zen > >>> > scam over > >>>and over and still do! > >>> > :-) > >>> > > >>> > Edgar > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > On Apr 30, 2013, at 10:28 AM, William Rintala wrote: > >>> > > >>> > > > >>> > > Empty Mind/Cup does not equal Empty Headed. Correct? Open Mind does > >>> > > not > >>>mean absolute naivety does it. Would someone whose mind had the qualities > >>>of > >>>Open and Empty Mindedness fall for the same scams repeatedly? Would such a > >>>person be incapable of learning, of retaining knowledge, of doing > >>>productive > >>>work? Aren't there stories of Zen Idiots? > >>> > > > >>> > > From: Bill! <BillSmart@> > >>> > > To: [email protected] > >>> > > Sent: Mon, April 29, 2013 3:45:23 AM > >>> > > Subject: [Zen] Re: open mind? > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > Merle and Edgar, > >>> > > > >>> > > I'm going to jump in here again to better explain what I mean by an > >>> > > 'empty > >>>mind'. To do that I'll use the teacup analogy. I know Edgar already knows > >>>the > >>>story but just in case Merle or anyone else reading this does not I'll > >>>repeat it > >>>here: > >>> > > > >>> > > "A university professor went to visit a famous Zen master. While the > >>> > > master > >>>quietly served tea, the professor talked about Zen. The master poured the > >>>visitor's cup to the brim, and then kept pouring. The professor watched > >>>the > >>>overflowing cup until he could no longer restrain himself. "It's overfull! > >>>No > >>>more will go in!" the professor blurted. "You are like this cup," the > >>>master > >>>replied, "How can I show you Zen unless you first empty your cup." - > >>>Traditional > >>>Zen Story > >>> > > > >>> > > Using that analogy your mind (intellect) is like the cup. The tea > >>>represents all the knowledge, concepts, prejudices, valuations, > >>>associations, > >>>etc..., that you carry around with you. > >>> > > > >>> > > When I say 'empty mind' I mean a mind (intellect) that is free of > >>>attachments to all the knowledge, concepts, prejudices, valuations, > >>>associations, etc..., which you have previously formed. It doesn't you've > >>>forgotten them permanently, but it means at this time of 'empty mind' you > >>>are > >>>not attached to or bound by any of them. > >>> > > > >>> > > Using the teacup analogy it would mean each time you have a new > >>> > > experience > >>>you do so with an empty cup. > >>> > > > >>> > > ...Bill! > >>> > > > >>> > > --- In [email protected], Merle Lester <merlewiitpom@> wrote: > >>> > > > > >>> > > > > >>> > > > > >>> > > > Ãâ bill...yes edgar..what is your interpretation of an open > >>> > > > mind? can you > >>>clarify?..merle > >>> > > > Ãâ > >>> > > > Merle, > >>> > > > > >>> > > > Edgar and I cannot agree because we have a completely different > >>> > > > idea of > >>>what Buddha Nature is, and therefore what zen is. Just why Edgar holds the > >>>opinions he does I don't know. I hold mine because first and foremost they > >>>are > >>>formed from my experience. Secondly they conform with what I've been > >>>taught - > >>>not everything I've been taught, but most of it. Lastly they correspond > >>>with > >>>what I've read - not everything I've read, but most of it. > >>> > > > > >>> > > > Edgar's suggestion of 'opening the mind' is fine. I don't think > >>> > > > anyone > >>>would argue that having a closed mind is better. > >>> > > > > >>> > > > You'll have to ask Edgar to explain his idea of 'opening the mind' > >>> > > > a > >>>little more. I don't want to speak for him, but I SUSPECT his idea of > >>>opening > >>>the mind is so you can start filling it up with knowledge, but that IMO is > >>>not > >>>the way to experience Buddha Nature. > >>> > > > > >>> > > > I could also use that phrase but if I did my idea of 'opening the > >>> > > > mind' > >>>would be to start emptying it of illusions and prejudices so you can > >>>experience > >>>Buddha Nature. > >>> > > > > >>> > > > These are two diametrically opposed approaches. > >>> > > > > >>> > > > ...Bill! > >>> > > > > >>> > > > --- In [email protected], Merle Lester <merlewiitpom@> > >>> > > > wrote: > >>> > > > > > >>> > > > > > >>> > > > > > >>> > > > > ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâ > >>> > > > > ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâ bill!..maybe emptying the cup and opening the > >>> > > > > mind are both the > >>>same thing..check with edgar...you 2 seem to be at loggerheads over > >>>this..why? > >>> > > > > ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâ can you not agree to disagree?..merle > >>> > > > > > >>> > > > > No, I can't say I do. At least not entirely. > >>> > > > > > >>> > > > > Edgar's teacup is about 3/4 full. He wants to keep filling it up. > >>> > > > > I'm > >>>advising him to empty it out. > >>> > > > > > >>> > > > > I'm not sure what he means by 'opening the mind'. That sounds > >>> > > > > nice an > >>>new-agey, but what does it mean? Does it mean emptying his cup? Or does it > >>>mean > >>>breaking his cup? > >>> > > > > > >>> > > > > I think he should just empty his cup and go from there. > >>> > > > > > >>> > > > > ...Bill! > >>> > > > > > >>> > > > > --- In [email protected], Merle Lester <merlewiitpom@> > wrote: > >>> > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > >>> > > > > > ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâ > >>> > > > > > ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâ bill!..you agree with > >>> > > > > > this surely?...opening the > >>>mind?..merle > >>> > > > > > ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâ > >>> > > > > > Bill, > >>> > > > > > > >>> > > > > > Zen neither empties or fills your mind. The very concept of > >>> > > > > > this > >>>dualism is incorrect. > >>> > > > > > > >>> > > > > > Zen is simply opening mind to what is. It is pure consciousness > >>> > > > > > of > >>>either the forms or the formless.. > >>> > > > > > > >>> > > > > > And btw it is NOT "your mind". It is simply consciousness > >>> > > > > > antecedent > >>>to any distinction of self and not-self... > >>> > > > > > > >>> > > > > > Edgar > >>> > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > >>> > > > > > On Apr 27, 2013, at 7:52 AM, Bill! wrote: > >>> > > > > > > >>> > > > > > ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâ > >>> > > > > > >Edgar, > >>> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > >Yes. I'm afraid we have a fundamental disagreement here. > >>> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > >I think zen practice empties out your mind, and you think it > >>> > > > > > >fills > >>>it up. > >>> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > >Do you want to Rock/Paper/Scissors for it? > >>> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > >..Bill! > >>> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > >--- In [email protected], Edgar Owen <edgarowen@> > >>> > > > > > >wrote: > >>> > > > > > >> > >>> > > > > > >> Bill, > >>> > > > > > >> > >>> > > > > > >> As usual you contradict the Zen teachings which I support.... > >>> > > > > > >> > >>> > > > > > >> Edgar > >>> > > > > > >> > >>> > > > > > >> > >>> > > > > > >> > >>> > > > > > >> On Apr 26, 2013, at 9:38 PM, Bill! wrote: > >>> > > > > > >> > >>> > > > > > >> > Edgar, > >>> > > > > > >> > > >>> > > > > > >> > I see your problem now. > >>> > > > > > >> > > >>> > > > > > >> > You think progress in zen is measured in ADDING ON things > >>> > > > > > >> > - like > >>>knowledge. It's not. You progress in zen by TAKING AWAY things until you > >>>get > >>>down to Just THIS! > >>> > > > > > >> > > >>> > > > > > >> > You don't progress from Level 2 to Level 3. You progress > >>> > > > > > >> > from > >>>Level 2 to Level 1 and then to Level 0 which is actually no-level - Buddha > >>>Nature. > >>> > > > > > >> > > >>> > > > > > >> > You're trying to fill you cup up instead of emptying > >>> > > > > > >> > it...Bill! > >> > >>> > > > > > >> > > >>> > > > > > >> > --- In [email protected], Edgar Owen <edgarowen@> > >>wrote: > >>> > > > > > >> > > > >>> > > > > > >> > > Bill, > >>> > > > > > >> > > > >>> > > > > > >> > > That's Niels, not Neal. > >>> > > > > > >> > > > >>> > > > > > >> > > Go back to stage one and get it right. Do NOT pass go! > >>> > > > > > >> > > :-) > >>> > > > > > >> > > > >>> > > > > > >> > > Edgar > >>> > > > > > >> > > > >>> > > > > > >> > > > >>> > > > > > >> > > > >>> > > > > > >> > > On Apr 26, 2013, at 10:27 AM, Bill! wrote: > >>> > > > > > >> > > > >>> > > > > > >> > > > Edgar, > >>> > > > > > >> > > > > >>> > > > > > >> > > > *** Sorry, I misread your post below and Replied > >>>incorrectly. I erased that but if you get the posts by email you might > >>>have > >>>received it. If you did please disregard. My corrected post is *** > >>> > > > > > >> > > > > >>> > > > > > >> > > > What do you mean Stage Three? Neal and I are done with > >>> > > > > > >> > > > Stage > >>>Two and and now ready for Stage One! > >>> > > > > > >> > > > > >>> > > > > > >> > > > ...Bill! > >>> > > > > > >> > > > > >>> > > > > > >> > > > --- In [email protected], Edgar Owen > >>> > > > > > >> > > > <edgarowen@> > >>>wrote: > >>> > > > > > >> > > > > > >>> > > > > > >> > > > > Bill, > >>> > > > > > >> > > > > > >>> > > > > > >> > > > > Thanks for the quote in which Bohr correctly > >>> > > > > > >> > > > > expresses > >>>stage two "mountains are no longer mountains". > >>> > > > > > >> > > > > > >>> > > > > > >> > > > > Stage three is when those unreal illusory things are > >>>realized to be the true reality. Then mountains become mountains again.. > >>> > > > > > >> > > > > > >>> > > > > > >> > > > > Both Bill and Bohr haven't reached that stage yet... > >>> > > > > > >> > > > > > >>> > > > > > >> > > > > Edgar > >>> > > > > > >> > > > > > >>> > > > > > >> > > > > > >>> > > > > > >> > > > > > >>> > > > > > >> > > > > On Apr 26, 2013, at 5:38 AM, Bill! wrote: > >>> > > > > > >> > > > > > >>> > > > > > >> > > > > > > >>> > > > > > >> > > > > > Maybe Edgar will listen to him... > >>> > > > > > >> > > > > > > >>> > > > > > >> > > > > > > >>> > > > > > >> > > > > > > >>> > > > > > >> > > > > > > >>> > > > > > >> > > > > > ...Bill! > >>> > > > > > >> > > > > > > >>> > > > > > >> > > > > > > >>> > > > > > >> > > > > > >>> > > > > > >> > > > > >>> > > > > > >> > > > > >>> > > > > > >> > > > >>> > > > > > >> > > >>> > > > > > >> > > >>> > > > > > >> > >>> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > >>> > > > > > >>> > > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > >>> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! 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