question siska... do your parents practise meditation?.... merle
Hi Mike, It's been soooo long since anyone talked to me with all these terms :) After a while, the "seeing as seeing" moments have less 'centered feeling'. The seer sort of diluted and sometimes, it's gone. This is already when I was with current vipassana approach, not Mahasi tradition. So I don't know if anyone from Mahasi tradition would have similar experience, or describe the experience the same way I do. Is this also familiar to you? Because this is where I got a little confused. When there is no observer, there is not 'real knowledge' of what comes into consciousness during those moments either. Our teacher told me to go on, but my mind is too curious :D Siska ________________________________ From: uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Fri, 24 May 2013 04:39:59 +0100 (BST) To: zen group<Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com> ReplyTo: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Zuli Agrees With Bill! Hi Siska, Most of my "born Buddhist" friends are Japanese, but Buddhism is mostly nothing more than a nominal belief in Japan (although its previous standing can still be seen in the various arts there today). Yes, I've heard of samatha and vipassana being taught as one meditation. I think the sutras support either argument. In the Goenka tradition the 10-day retreats begin with 4 days of anapanasatti (the breath as object of meditation) before introducing vipassana at the end of the fourth day. By then the mind is concentrated, and the hindrances eliminated, enough to begin vipassana proper. This works for me well. There are vipassana jhanas, but it's much less complicated to teach a beginner the jhanic stages thru samatha meditation. I would be surprised if you haven't entered the first jhana, even if momentarily, if you've been practicing for a while. Of course, entering the jhanas by themselves doesn't yield any particular wisdom nor lead to enlightenment, but its a helluva place to give the mind a rest! Definitely worth experiencing tho for the power of concentration that is developed attaining them. Khanika samadhi is is associated with vipassana and not samatha. That almost staccato moment to moment to moment concentration is exactly what leads to the insight of anicca (impermanence). In fact, I'd say it is impermanence in effect - which is exactly why vipassana means 'seeing things as they really are'! I can see why you might think this similar to shikantaza because it's keeping that concentration without distraction regardless of the object that comes up. The main difference, for me at least, is that khanika samadhi describes the state of mind during noting or scanning - something shikantaza doesn't do. Exactly! 'Seeing as seeing'. The first time I experienced the same the jolt of adrenaline knocked me back into the everyday world! Again, that "newness" and "nothing stored" is anicca in operation and you *experiencing* it rather than merely understanding it. Mike PS I hope I didn't come across as teaching you something you didn't already know? I'm just excited that someone else hear also practices Vipassana!). PPS Just to keep it Zen related: Vipassana is very precise in its method of instruction and terminology, whereas Zen can come across, prima facie, as imprecise and vague. A good example would be the command to "Drop attachments". Vipassana describes exactly what an 'attachment' is, the physical-mental processes involved in that attachment, as well as specific practices to "drop" that attachment. Given Zen's dislike of words and explanations, is simply saying "drop attachments" really useful? So my questions are: is one tradition superior to the other? Are they at cross-purposes in the first place? Or are the different approaches just a question of upaya (skilful means) for people of different temperaments? Or something else? Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad ________________________________ From: siska_...@yahoo.com <siska_...@yahoo.com>; To: <Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com>; Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Zuli Agrees With Bill! Sent: Fri, May 24, 2013 12:42:56 AM Hi Mike, Haha yes, no apostasy for me :) If you have Thai friends, I think they should also be 'born Buddhist'..... I understand in vipassana communities, people distinguish between vipassana and samatha. However, vipassana that I currently practise do not distinguish that and it has been quite a while since I attended any session under Mahasi or other traditional vipassana tradition. I only remember that friends at Amaravati told me that vipassana and samatha are actually the same (they practise samatha under the Thai forrest tradition). Ajahn Sumedho's talk, a highly referred monk under this tradition, sounds very 'vipassana' in my mind (but now he sounds zen too). I also remember someone describing the experience of his first jhana similar to how I'd describe khanika samadhi as known in vipassana tradition. But I don't know for sure if I ever had any jhana experience. Could you please refresh me on the difference in the qualities of mind during samatha and vipassana. Or at least, your definition of both.... > That split second would be that Place where labels and concepts are always > dropped. This is, I think, what in the cannon is described as 'seeing as seeing' (Bahiya Sutta). Sometimes, when this happens in a stronger mindfulness, we also see 'newness' in each moment. It is as if we don't store what we saw the moment before in our memory. It's new each time and it was really scary the first time it happened. Siska ________________________________ From: uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Thu, 23 May 2013 15:30:35 +0100 (BST) To: zen group<Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com> ReplyTo: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Zuli Agrees With Bill! Hi Siska, Well, at least you can never be accused of apostasy! I don't think I know anyone who was raised as a Buddhist from birth (Japan doesn't count), most people I know became Buddhists by choice. I've never practiced the Mahasi method formally (but I have practiced noting), but would definitely consider a 3 month retreat to do so. I've heard good reports. Do you also practice samatha mediation and, if so, have you ever experienced the jhanas? I actually stopped seated meditation for a while because I entered the first jhana so easily that it became a distraction from my vipsssana meditation. Yes, you're correct. All methods must be transcended eventually. I find that some methods not only help to awaken, but are also almost a 'taste' of what enlightenment is. Mindfulness is like that. With strong attention it is possible for something to come into awareness, say a normal piece of household furniture, and just a split second before perception labels the object you aren't aware of its name. That split second would be that Place where labels and concepts are always dropped. In other words, Reality. Mike Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad ________________________________ From: siska_...@yahoo.com <siska_...@yahoo.com>; To: <Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com>; Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Zuli Agrees With Bill! Sent: Thu, May 23, 2013 11:52:12 AM Hi Mike, I came from Buddhist family. My friends from Amaravati (monastery in north of London) called my 'born Buddhist'. So I cannot imagine myself if I were your friend either. The retreats that I attend are conducted in a Buddhist monastery. However, only a few of the participants are Buddhist. Many others are Moslem and Catholics. First time I was in the retreat, it was very interesting to find how people express similar meditative experience in their own religious framework. There have been, on rare occasions, people who then gave up their original religion, including Islam, and became Buddhists. I first came across vipassana when I was overseas and it was with Mahasi tradition. It was easier for me back then with the noting. It gave my mind something to do. Eventually, we have to let go the noting though.... Siska ________________________________ From: uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Thu, 23 May 2013 05:37:35 +0100 (BST) To: zen group<Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com> ReplyTo: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Zuli Agrees With Bill! Siska, I have a good friend in Jakarta. She follows Islam and is quite aware of the work of the Sufis. We sometimes discuss the poems of Rumi (of course!) and look for similarities between Islam and Buddhism. Although we see eye to eye on much in our conversations, I can't imagine her ever giving up Islam. What brought you to Vipassana in a country where the local religion is so strong? Also, which tradition do you follow? I prefer the Goenka 'scanning' approach, rather than the 'noting' method of the forest tradition. Mike Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad ________________________________ From: siska_...@yahoo.com <siska_...@yahoo.com>; To: <Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com>; Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Zuli Agrees With Bill! Sent: Wed, May 22, 2013 2:23:28 PM Hi Edgar, My current practice is vipassana based, with a lot of influence from Krishnamurti. There, it is very different from zen/chan tradition. No teacher-student initiation or even reference to any teacher is suggested. Having said that, I still highly appreciate many people whose path has crossed mine as a teacher, intentionally or not.... Siska ------Original Message------ From: Edgar Owen Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com ReplyTo: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Zuli Agrees With Bill! Sent: May 22, 2013 19:37 Siska, No, not you. It's what Bill and Joe recommend you do... I'm sure you know better than that! Edgar On May 22, 2013, at 8:09 AM, siska_...@yahoo.com wrote: > Hi Edgar, > > Nah, that couldn't be me ;-) > > Siska > ------Original Message------ > From: Edgar Owen > Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com > To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com > ReplyTo: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Zuli Agrees With Bill! > Sent: May 22, 2013 18:16 > > Bill, and Siska, > > Sure, just abrogate all your personal responsibility for your own realization > and leave it up to "a good teacher". > Good luck! > Edgar > > > On May 21, 2013, at 9:29 PM, Bill! wrote: Siska, > > You're probably right about preferring poems to remain untranslated. Poems > are entirely dependent upon language including sound, cadence and meaning. > > Koans are more easily translated since they are only dependent upon meaning, > although some koans refer to terms and objects that were common at the time > but are not part of our time or culture. A good teacher will help you sort > that out and IMO it is less problematic for koans than for poems. > > ...Bill! > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, siska_cen@... wrote: >> >> Hi Bill, >> >> I always like that pond haiku. Unfortunately, I often cannot relate to >> poetry other than those in my mother language. And I think poetry are best >> left un-translated. >> >> I'm better with koans.... >> >> Siska >> -----Original Message----- >> From: "Bill!" <BillSmart@...> >> Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com >> Date: Tue, 21 May 2013 08:20:33 >> To: <Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com> >> Reply-To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com >> Subject: [Zen] Re: Zuli Agrees With Bill! >> >> Siska, >> Exactly! The problem with words (phrases really), especially English, >> us that our whole language is duality-based. Even our sentence >> structure requires a subject, a verb and an object. The subject's >> actions or relationship to the object is described by the verb. There's >> no way to adequately represent a totally holistic (non-dualistic) >> experie ------------------------------------ Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com
