Bill, OK, then the only disagreement is that I maintain your 'delusions' are PART of reality since I define reality as everything that exists without exception and you think delusions are NOT part of reality...
Without that additional step you don't realize the meaning of 'mountains are mountains again'. That's the realization that the illusions (delusions) are in fact the true nature of mountains but only as realized as the illusions they are.... Of course the true nature of mountains like everything is the formless Buddha Nature but that manifests as all the illusory forms, therefore the illusory forms are form manifestations of Buddha Nature rather than something standing apart from it. Without this realization you are stuck in the permanent dualism of a world consisting of Buddha Nature and of illusory forms. The true understanding is the non-dualistic realization that illusory forms manifest Buddha Nature and thus they are part of Buddha Nature.... Ah well, I don't expect you to get this but I keep trying... Edgar On Jun 28, 2013, at 10:09 AM, Bill! wrote: > Edgar, > > I liked your description of the difference between enlightenment and nirvana: > "...enlightenment in which one does not leave the world of forms but just > sees them for what they truly are..." and "In nirvana all forms cease > permanently." > > I agree with that and use the term 'delusions' as a term for your "...see > them for what they truly are...". > > ...Bill! > > --- In [email protected], Edgar Owen <edgarowen@...> wrote: > > > > Mike, > > > > First, the law of karma is nonsense. I'm not defending it, just explaining > > it. > > > > Also as you can see your reply as received was garbled so don't have time > > to wade through it all.. > > > > Yes, karma plays itself out eventually. As to karma suddenly ceasing that's > > only when all forms cease in what is called nirvana which Buddhism in > > general (there are some variant beliefs) takes as cessation of all form. > > Nirvana is a state far beyond enlightenment in which one does not leave the > > world of forms but just sees them for what they truly are, empty forms of > > Buddha Nature. In nirvana all forms cease permanently. > > > > Standard Buddhist doctrine believes that one may eventually work through > > all one's karma through successive reincarnations and eventual escape form > > altogether. > > > > But since there is NO reincarnation the true understanding is that dying is > > equivalent to nirvana, because it is only in death that all forms cease (to > > the dead person) and only in death does one escape the world of forms and > > reach nirvana. At death one's karma automatically ceases whether one is > > good or bad, or enlightened or not. > > > > Sort of crazy that Buddhists take death as the ultimate salvation when seen > > in the proper light..... > > > > That's the proper understanding of karma which properly understood is just > > cause and effect in the world of forms that ceases when one leaves the > > world of forms in death. And also believing that good always beget good and > > evil evil is total nonsense. Maybe slightly above 50% at best depending on > > who is doing the judging.... > > > > Edgar > > > > > > > > On Jun 28, 2013, at 3:07 AM, uerusuboyo@... wrote: > > > > > Edgar,<br/><br/>There is no confusion in what I said at all and it also > > > depends on from which tradition you're talking about karma. As I've been > > > taught, karma will indeed play itself out, but only as long as a person > > > still identifies themselves with a self. Upon awakening to our Original > > > Nature (which can happen at any time) karma is extinguished because where > > > is the self for karma to attach to? Unless of course you're getting karma > > > confused with the crazy notion that karma is fatalistic and/or > > > deterministic which would make emancipation from karma > > > impossible.<br/><br/>Here are a few snippets on the subject. There are > > > many, many more out there if you care to do the research..<br/><br/>>He > > > who believes in Karma does not condemn even the most corrupt, for they, > > > too, have their chance to reform themselves ***at any moment*** > > > (buddhanet.net)<<br/><br/>>Since basic nature transcends all duality and > > > is ultimate, there is no one to receive the effect, whether > > > it is good or bad, and no one to whom any effect can apply. Cause and > > > effect, just like birth and death, lose their significance at the > > > Enlightened level because at the level of basic nature there is no one to > > > receive the effect of the Karma, whether it is good or bad. Therefore, at > > > the extreme, when one is Enlightened, the law of Karma is not applicable > > > (angel-fire.com)<<br/><br/>>In the Vajrayana tradition, it is believed > > > that the effects of negative past karma can be "purified" through such > > > practices as meditation on Vajrasattva.[91] The performer of the action, > > > after having purified the karma, does not experience the negative results > > > he or she otherwise would have.[92]<br/>(Wiki)<br/><br/>>The Japanese > > > Tendai/Pure Land teacher Genshin taught that Amida Buddha has the power > > > to destroy the karma that would otherwise bind one in > > > saṃsāra.[89][90]<br/><br/><br/>Mike<br/><br/>Sent from Yahoo! Mail for > > > iPad > > > >
