Edgar,
I wouldn't know about bad English.
But I suspect that philosophizing by someone not native to or rigorously
trained in a language is fraught with the possibility or near occasion of
misinterpretation.
Even a good language translator cannot give a good translation if the
translator is not also a Zen adept. It's dicey. So is making any firm or
confident interpretation. And, the Roshi is dead. No one has identified the
Translator (if there was one).
In any case, the Roshi would remind you: "There is no fixed Dharma, anyway, so
don't hang on my words, nor anyone's: ours is not the Teaching School"
But my interpretation is not subject to any doubt, just as I wrote in my reply.
I am confident in my interpretation of the wording as I have modified it. In
fact, the wording then speaks for itself, and need not be dubiously
interpreted. I append it again, below, for review:
"As soon as there is seeing, you already start to intellectualize it. As soon
as you intellectualize something, it is no longer the sight."
Again, though, the second clause of the first sentence does not follow, if one
is awake. So note, again, too, that the Roshi is not speaking about the
experience of his few current or past awakened disciples -- nor even about
himself -- but about the experience of the majority of his students, in the
state they are in now, and as they work toward entering the door of Ch'an,
perhaps for the first time.
To those people, what he says is spot on, yes.
And, again, his is not a metaphysical statement. He is not establishing
"objects", or "things". Re-read the re-wording.
I think that Bill!, not being the one with the soundness of the thesis of a
300-page unedited manuscript to defend in advance, will see the reasonableness
of my interpretation, and the clarity and correctness of my observations on
these points. You should also!
--Joe
> Edgar Owen <edgarowen@...> wrote:
>
> Joe,
>
> If you really think this is matter of bad English then he shouldn't write
> something in English that wasn't correct. That would be unbecoming of a Zen
> teacher.
>
> But the statement is both good English AND good Zen. It's your's and Bill's
> interpretation that seems to be off.
>
> Edgar
>
>
> On Jul 1, 2013, at 1:29 PM, Joe wrote:
>
> > Edgar,
> >
> > You make a dubious interpretation; I'll make one that can't be doubted.
> >
> > It need not be that the Roshi means there is a "something".
> >
> > The Roshi starts: "As soon as you see something... ".
> >
> > He need not have said it this way, and neither do we. He and we might have
> > spoken as the Buddha did:
> >
> > "As soon as there is Seeing... ".
> >
> > If the Roshi meant this, the rest of what he says still fits.
> >
> > Where I think the quote is incomplete in its appreciation of experience is
> > in the second clause. It need not be (happen) that one "...already starts
> > to intellectualize".
> >
> > The Roshi taught ways of awakening so that this condition need not obtain.
> > That is, so intellectualization need not follow from seeing, or upon seeing.
> >
> > Thus, his quote pertains to those who are not in the awakened condition.
> >
> > I claim his quote is not about Existence, or Metaphysics, and does NOT
> > point beyond Experience; it is about phenomenology in persons who are not
> > awake (i.e., most of his students, at any time).
> >
> > Read the line like this, and you will see that he is advising hearers NOT
> > to do what you do:
> >
> > "As soon as there is seeing, you already start to intellectualize it. As
> > soon as you intellectualize something, it is no longer the sight."
> >
> > It's known that S. Suzuki's English was barely good enough for him to be
> > understood in the Zendo during Teisho. I have some audio tapes, and I know
> > this. There may be translation problems with what he said, if he spoke the
> > quoted line in Japanese, and if he spoke it in English, well, his
> > "something" might not be a Metaphysical inference, as you choose to
> > interpret it, but may refer, as I recommend, to the seeing itself: the
> > having of the experience of the seeing, which seems natural.
------------------------------------
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