Joe,

I hear what you are saying, but I think Buddhism as it is presented today is 
way too complicated and complex.  But of course that's why I'm drawn to zen.  
Nothing complicated or complex there.  Just THIS!

...Bill!

--- In [email protected], "Joe" <desert_woodworker@...> wrote:
>
> Bill!,
> 
> No, every generation makes some changes in how they teach, "live", and in the 
> records they write down, or that others write about them.
> 
> I just found it odd that you should take the Buddha to task for beginning the 
> teaching in his day of an entirely new system with a simple outline, instead 
> of an immediately minutely detailed one which might take hours for him to 
> recite to Hearers.
> 
> His first people were "Hearers", Stream-Enterers", and so they can be today.  
> Maybe you and I both were, back in the day.
> 
> I suspect he knew something about pedagogy, and that what he "knew" was 
> entirely informed by the Wisdom dawned in him; and, he was teaching from the 
> Heart.  He had to start somewhere and with something.  His start was like the 
> Preamble of a founding document.  He taught a "graspable" skeleton, perhaps 
> based on the model from Hinduism, but intended to distinguish itself from 
> Hinduism.  His students and hearers were Hindu.
> 
> (Why didn't the Pointillists use twice the number of pixelated "dots" in 
> their paintings, why just 11,391?) 
> 
> And from a Mind seeing no divisions between anything(s), but only the 
> interconnectedness, he was able to call out EIGHT.  Quite an achievement!  
> And he gave them as useful tools to people, as a start to practice, or to 
> draw them to practice.
> 
> Compassion made him do it.
> 
> Has this become outdated?  I think not by a long shot.
> 
> Let's remember, too, that "words are goads": A hearing and appreciation of 
> the Eightfold Path -- or a more manifold Path -- is not yet Practice.
> 
> The history of Buddhism is a history of Change.  And a big teaching of the 
> tradition -- and it is yet a tradition -- has to do with "Change".  All quite 
> remarkable, one of the more remarkable things on Earth, and directly 
> concerning Humans' lives.
> 
> --Joe
> 
> > "Bill!" <BillSmart@> wrote:
> >
> > Joe,
> > 
> > So are you saying that we should not make any attempts to modernize and 
> > make more relevant the mode of explanations and teachings from that of 2500 
> > years ago?
> > 
> > If that were the case in your line of work (astronomy) wouldn't we still be 
> > locked into the earth as being flat and the center of the universe, and the 
> > stars other heavenly bodies were actual gods?
> > 
> > ...Bill! 
> > 
> > --- In [email protected], "Joe" <desert_woodworker@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Bill!,
> > > 
> > > You might not be among the fortunate who lived 2500 years ago, when 
> > > literacy was the exception.
> > > 
> > > The skilful ways of the ancestors might be hard for an English-Major to 
> > > comprehend!
> > > 
> > > Breadth-Requirements might have had a chance of filling you in on the 
> > > facts.  No?  All but forgotten?
> > > 
> > > I see no reason to disparage the roots of the Zen (Buddhist) tradition.
> > > 
> > > Remember, too, that the Indian way of teacher was / is extremely 
> > > detailed, precise, and dependent on memorization and personal 
> > > assimilation.  That was the tradition, and so it continues (there)!
> > > 
> > > Mr. Suresh may correct me if I'm a century awry.
> > > 
> > > --Joe
> > > 
> > > > "Bill!" <BillSmart@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Edgar,
> > > > 
> > > > I agree 100% with that!  Like the Noble Eightfold Path:  Right Speech, 
> > > > Right Thought, Right Intentions, etc...  Why do they name only 8 
> > > > classes?  Why do they name classes at all?  Why not just: Live Right?  
> > > > And anyway the challenge isn't doing all the 'right' things.  The 
> > > > challenge is determining what is right and what is not.
> > > > 
> > > > I call this "The Twelve Days Of Christmas Syndrome":  You know...four 
> > > > calling birds, three French hens, two turtle doves and a partridge in a 
> > > > pear treeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee.  ;>)
> > >
> >
>




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