Dear Fudo, This is the reason why I was trying to get people to engage in defining the middle way. Alas, no one responded (either everyone already knows or no one knows for sure). But without understanding what the middle way is in Buddhism, we will forever have these back-and-forth misunderstandings.
Many people erroneously assume that the middle way is a position literally smack in the middle of (in-between) two extremes. Like, the Buddha tried living in the lap of luxury and then switched to the other extreme -- the most severe ascetism, and neither worked. So he chose the middle position, tuning his own body and mind like a musical instrument: not too slack, not too taut. And then -- bam! -- the enlightenment happened! That is just an old wife's tale. That is not the middle way, not by any stretch of imagination. Please be more dilligent and learn what the middle way really is. Then, once you clarify that, please feel free to attack me for being guilty of spewing forth sloppy logic, for playing the word games. Alex --- fudo <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Alex Bunard wrote: > > Dear all, > > > > As devout zen practitioners, I'm sure you are > aware > > that there is no such thing as 'first' or 'last' > or > > 'in-between'. This discussion is, therefore, a bit > > beside the point. > > > > In the conventional sense, the Buddha was the > first > > one to declare that the only way to reach the > truth is > > to be the first one. But, historically speaking, I > > doubt if he was actually the first one to get > there. > > Others must have been there before, it is only > that we > > don't see any trace of them. > > > > No follower could ever get there. You need to be > the > > one who's blazing the trail. Nevermind the fact > that > > so many have already ben there. They weren't the > ones > > who paved the road for us. They were the ones who > > taught us that it is possible to pave the road. > Each > > and every one of us must pave our own road. > > > > Alex > > > Dear Alex, > > As a what ever you are,(not a zen practitioner as I > have heard) I am > sure you are aware that all things do exist. It is > just that they exist > in relation to one another and there is therefore a > first a last and in > in-between. Was it not Nagarajuna who said all > things cause all things?. > If there are things then there are fist and last and > in-between. > If there is not right and left, then how can there > be a middle?, and if > there is no middle how can there be a middle way for > you to talk about? > > You are a babe babbling in the wilderness. Who can > tell if anything is > said or not? This constant use of cheap logical > tricks becomes no one. > If this is what passes for wisdom in the Madhyamika > school then it is > indeed fallen far. What is it Madhyamika means > again...the middle way? > ...correct? if there is no in-between then where is > the middle? > > I am sure you know that the essence of Buddha's > teaching is the four > Noble Truths. (don't take my word for it....it was > what Buddha said). > The last of which is the eight fold path. This is in > fact the breaking > of the trail. This does of course not mean that you > do not need to > travel it. In the course of 2500 years many have > trod the path,they left > at first trail markers and their feet over the > centuries have clearly > marked the path for any one who has eyes to see > it..some might say it > has been completely paved. It is not necessary at > all for anyone to pave > their own road. It is my contention that such an > exercise of ego is not > only a waste of time, but one is not very likely to > forget themselves > while indulging themselves in an ego trip and doing > as they please. > > The ancestors have left us maps, and trail markers, > and descriptions of > the trip. It is not necessary at all to blaze a new > trail. In fact, as > you point out, there is no new, no first nor no > last. There is no trail > at all, and no need to pave one. There is also no > consistent logic to > your posts. > > "No follower could ever get there". This is just > lousy logic...one > cannot prove a negative. It is an unprovable > assertion. .. all since the > Buddha are just-Johnny-come-lately followers.(no > matter what form of > denial they are in). You can scream all you want to > about paving your > own path, but all this means is that you cannot see > the path as it meets > your eyes. > > The gateless gate, the pathless path. Just because > the gate is gateless, > does not mean it is not marked, just because the > path is pathless does > not mean there is no map of it. > > I do not know what you have heard, but my lineage > papers start several > Buddha's before Shakyamuni. (Bibashi Butsu, Shiki > Butsu, Bishafu Butsu, > Kurusan Butsu, Kunagonmuni Butsu,Kasho Butsu then > Shakyamuni) He was > not the first to cross over. He was just the first > to bother to tell us > about it. I would think that someone who values > scholarship so highly > would have known that. > > I have become bored with your word games, if I found > satisfaction in > word games I would have become a Madhyamika > practioner. I lost interest > in word games a long time ago. > > Be Well > > Fudo ===== No karma was produced during the composition of this letter __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> $9.95 domain names from Yahoo!. Register anything. http://us.click.yahoo.com/J8kdrA/y20IAA/yQLSAA/S27xlB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> Noble Eightfold Path: Right View, Right Intention, Right Speech, Right Action, Right Effort, Right Mindfulness, Right Concentration, Right Livelihood Yahoo! 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