Good synopsis. Attachment in it's negative sense is a fixation at a cost. Love it might be argued is a positive attachment, tho perhaps a hindrence if one wishes to be 'enlightened' religiously. ie which is why Jesus, Buddha and Mother Theresa were single, if not swinging - and why few practice 'true' Zen here. Most people likely have a conflict with our cultures materialist values. Ergo, the Alex Cunundrum.
On Fri, 28 Jan 2005 11:39am, [email protected] wrote: > > > There are 4 messages in this issue. > > Topics in this digest: > > 1. Buddhas in the house? > From: "ventouxboy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > 2. Re: Buddhas in the house? > From: Alex Bunard <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > 3. Re: Buddhas in the house? > From: "ventouxboy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > 4. Re: Buddhas in the house? > From: Alex Bunard <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > ________________________________________________________________________ > ________________________________________________________________________ > > Message: 1 > Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 16:58:51 -0000 > From: "ventouxboy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Subject: Buddhas in the house? > > > Just curious if anyone here has reached the state of enlightenment. > It would help me tremendously to find someone who I could discuss a > few points on this matter. There is quite a bit of good discussion > here, but there are some specifics I came here for that I havn't > seen any threads on. Guy > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________ > ________________________________________________________________________ > > Message: 2 > Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 09:27:58 -0800 (PST) > From: Alex Bunard <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Subject: Re: Buddhas in the house? > > Ultimately, there is no such thing as a state of > enlightenment. But conventional consensus agrees that > there is such thing, so ask away:-) > > Alex > > --- ventouxboy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >> >> Just curious if anyone here has reached the state of >> enlightenment. >> It would help me tremendously to find someone who I >> could discuss a >> few points on this matter. There is quite a bit of >> good discussion >> here, but there are some specifics I came here for >> that I havn't >> seen any threads on. Guy >> >> >> >> > > > ===== > No karma was produced during the composition of this letter > > > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Mail - You care about security. So do we. > http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail > > > ________________________________________________________________________ > ________________________________________________________________________ > > Message: 3 > Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 22:43:53 -0000 > From: "ventouxboy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Subject: Re: Buddhas in the house? > > > ---Interesting you don't believe in enlightenment. I understand the > concept of Zen seperate from it, as a philosophy of living, but then > why meditate or ponder koans? Isn't the purpose of these to free the > mind from barriers, which is what I see enlightenment as. > > Now you've whetted my intellectual curiosity. So what is your > vision of Zen, in what way does it benefit your life? > > Thanks for the feedback Alex, I will always appreciate a different > viewpoint, it's how we learn, Guy.:) > > In [email protected], Alex Bunard <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> Ultimately, there is no such thing as a state of >> enlightenment. But conventional consensus agrees that >> there is such thing, so ask away:-) >> >> Alex >> >> --- ventouxboy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> >> > >> > Just curious if anyone here has reached the state of >> > enlightenment. >> > It would help me tremendously to find someone who I >> > could discuss a >> > few points on this matter. There is quite a bit of >> > good discussion >> > here, but there are some specifics I came here for >> > that I havn't >> > seen any threads on. Guy >> > >> > >> > >> > >> >> >> ===== >> No karma was produced during the composition of this letter >> >> >> >> >> __________________________________ >> Do you Yahoo!? >> Yahoo! Mail - You care about security. So do we. >> http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________ > ________________________________________________________________________ > > Message: 4 > Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 16:39:49 -0800 (PST) > From: Alex Bunard <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Subject: Re: Buddhas in the house? > > --- ventouxboy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> >> ---Interesting you don't believe in enlightenment. I >> understand the >> concept of Zen seperate from it, as a philosophy of >> living, but then >> why meditate or ponder koans? Isn't the purpose of >> these to free the >> mind from barriers, which is what I see >> enlightenment as. >> >> Now you've whetted my intellectual curiosity. So >> what is your >> vision of Zen, in what way does it benefit your >> life? >> >> Thanks for the feedback Alex, I will always >> appreciate a different >> viewpoint, it's how we learn, Guy.:) > > Hey Guy, > > I'm in a bit of a rush now, as my course is about to > start in 20 minutes. I'll see what I can squeeze for > now, and then maybe give you something more cogent > tomorrow. How's that? Deal? > > I always like to put Zen in the context. Forgive me if > this is old news to you, but I'd like to reiterate > that 'Zen' is a Japanese word which is a translation > of the Chinese word 'Chan' which is a translation of > the Sanskrit word 'Dhyana'. Now the buck stops here! > What does Dhyana mean? Dhyana means concentration. > > Concentration on what? On examining phenomena. > > Most Buddhist practitioners I know, if asked what is > the most important thing one needs to do in order to > realize enlightenment, would say that it's to get rid > of attachments. > > But when we examine attachments carefully (i.e. when > we concentrate on them utilizing dhyana), we don't > find anything particularly objectionable and bad about > them. So, why should we abandon them? Why would > attachments be any worse than non-attachments? > > Actually, to be perfectly honest here, pretty much > nobody ever examines these things. Let's face it, we > all take them for granted, simply because we read > about them in some book, or someone told us to do so. > > But you see, this is the worst part, the fact that no > one examines anything. Everyone is looking only for > instant gratification. So: > > abandon attachments == attain enlightenment > > Simple as that. And we're done! > > Most people need pithy slogans, simplistic formulas > (like the one above), and such. No one wants to > perform the real work that is absolutely necessary in > order for them to wake up. > > Zen is being sold nowadays as this quick and easy high > road to satori. You don't have to know anything about > the Buddha's teaching, just come and sit with us, and > bingo! you'll get enlightened. What's more, expending > any effort to learn about the Buddha's teaching will > only make things worse for you. So, kill the Buddha! > > What I'd like to ask all of you here is to try and > explain why do you think that attachment should be > regarded as bad? In other words, what could possibly > be wrong with attachment? Or, conversely, why do you > think it's not bad? > > Then I'll return tomorrow and explain myself. But for > now, I'd have to excuse myself. > > Thanks. > > Alex > > > ===== > No karma was produced during the composition of this letter > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > > > ________________________________________________________________________ > ________________________________________________________________________ > > > Noble Eightfold Path: Right View, Right Intention, Right Speech, Right > Action, Right Effort, Right Mindfulness, Right Concentration, Right > Livelihood > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ "It's not what's in front of you that counts, or what's behind, its what's inside of you that matters most. " Thoreau ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> Would you Help a Child in need? It�s easier than you think. Click Here to meet a Child you can help. http://us.click.yahoo.com/kx_54C/I_qJAA/i1hLAA/S27xlB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> Noble Eightfold Path: Right View, Right Intention, Right Speech, Right Action, Right Effort, Right Mindfulness, Right Concentration, Right Livelihood Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ZenForum/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
