It occurs to me why out manuevering a nihilist is even MORE difficult then outmanuevering one who sees something of Nirvana's nature (not that I have much inkling of what that word is supposed to mean...):
Reality (and thus nirvana) is undefinable, because definitions arise from it. Conclusions draw to it not from it, leaving one with a slippery eel to handle. What keeps discussion of it from being blind speculation is due to its penetrating nature. As little as we may be able to describe it, we undeniably take part in reality -- and by some arguments and realizations beyond me, we may take part in ALL of it (not to start a discussion of one vs. many vs. beyond numbering). Yet nihilism, also undefinable because it posits an absolute nothingness beyond somethingness vs. nothingness, differs. In Nihilism also conclusions draw to it rather than from it, but definitions do not arise from it nor apply to it, leaving one with not a slippery eel, but instead a childish 'got your nose' thumb trick. Most importantly, by definition of Nihilism, we DON'T take part in it, wholely or partially, because 'there is nothing to take part in' (sound like someone we all know?) Thus, one who practices nihilism has discovered the profoundness of conclusions drawing to something rather than from it -- and it is a great discovery, watching science and all argument collapse to its knees before oneself. But a nihlist has stopped short thinking they reached the mountain peak -- lured by the decadent power of having something unassailable by argument. No one can out-argue them because arguments draw from it, not to it! Nihilism is a fine watering-hole along the journey -- and I had to whole-heartedly accept its ugly possibility in order to let go of absolute existence in the materialist sense. (this post is gonna be long I afraid, but I recently saw that Escher print of the staircase that always goes up... The museum text pointed out to me two guys who wouldn't partcipate. One spent his time brooding outside on the front steps of the structure (and Rod is scrawled under his Ass) -- and the other leaned back like a playa in the bar smugly watching the show put on by others (Nihilist is scribbled under HIS ass.) The whole 'emptyness' underlying 'somethingness vs. nothingness' is quite a profound observation I suspect. However, to slip into nihilism is a silly sophistry and denial of what we all know as obvious which for fifteen years I have called: Is Is (then Clinton had to piss on the phrase). This observation cannot be adequately communicated or captured. I can't even 'know' that you all are also witness to this Is-ness. I can't even 'know' that I am witness to it -- yet here I am. Thus, I don't know I exist within it as a separate witness, nor even as a subset or I could then delineate what is 'other', but instead I say I must have arisen from it in the same way of all 'things' I have seen (seeds, trees, babies, big-bangs, etc.) I am only sure of arising, Is-ness -- not that my sureness comes to that conclusion but instead FROM it again and again! 'Arising' is what I label the indescribable and unconcludable eventing to which I am constantly witness. So although I can't 'know' reality exists absolutely, it is only my dualistic mind that would grasp for the alternative that 'nothing exists'. The effort it takes to sustain this ridiculous idea is so painfully motivated... -----Original Message----- From: Ian [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, April 13, 2005 6:34 AM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [Zen] Nirvana Hi Alex, Francisco, and all When I posted that, I wanted to show that while, as Alex says, no determinations can ever do it justice, the Buddha still used a simile - "like a vast and mighty ocean" "profound, immeasurable, of a nature difficult to penetrate" I think this simile of the ocean can help allay concerns about Nirvana as some kind of "absolute nullity" nada, zippo, state of nonexistence. Nirvana is not actually "indeterminate" in the sense of "undefinable". It is precisely defined by the Buddha as "the extinction of desire, the extinction of hatred, the extinction of illusion." It's just that this very precise definition does not give any descriptive qualities to it. Ian ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> Would you Help a Child in need? It is easier than you think. Click Here to meet a Child you can help. http://us.click.yahoo.com/0Z9NuA/I_qJAA/i1hLAA/S27xlB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> Noble Eightfold Path: Right View, Right Intention, Right Speech, Right Action, Right Effort, Right Mindfulness, Right Concentration, Right Livelihood Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ZenForum/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
