Thanksn for the post Ian.
Rod Scholl -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Ian Sent: Friday, April 22, 2005 3:43 AM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [Zen] So What? (Was Shikantaza) Right then! Back to Tony's question. In a totally vain attempt, I'm sure, to ward off further criticism about addressing such questions, I'll quote the charter for our esteemed list: "Zen is life, and part of life is talking and discussing our Zen Practice and experiences. Unless we teach each other (passively, with friendly discussion) and talk about zazen, then how will we learn? While the great Roshis may not have talked much, none of them are on this list! So join the list and let's discuss our Zen Practice!" Cool! That's why I signed up! Ok then. You said you are coming from a Tibetan tradition to Zen? You might need a translator! I haven't been to either Tibet or Japan, but I'm glutton enough for punishment to volunteer for the job, seeing as how no one else has. That way, I can get all the Tibetans mad at me too and get them shouting about finding a teacher! Kinda reminds me of Latin class. "Caesar aurum amat." "Caesar" - ha! that's an easy one... "amat" - okay tougher, but I recognize the root, I'll go with "loves"... "aurum" hmm... could be the mystical sound of the universe, but doesn't seem right somehow... >I am finding two things happening at the moment. As I have said I am >that used to starting a formal meditation session on the Emptiness of >Self by an analytical method involving trying to definitively identify >exactly how I appear to myself (no pun intended). Then through a >process of deductive reasoning reveal that I cannot be found in the >parts of my body nor in my mind. Thus the Empty nature of the self is >unveiled through logic and then I would attempt to mix my mind with >that Emptiness. Very sophisticated. The Tibetans seem to have developed these meditative techniques for gradually moving the mind all the way up through intellectual reasoning as far as it can go, using logical thinking right alongside direct experience to root out false ideas, right up to where we have to let go of them, which seems like what you call "mixing" the mind with emptiness. >Not I just sit! Hahaha! How mad is that. What is that going to do? It's a different approach to the same problem. Except in "just sitting" no mentality is given to work with. One just has to sit there with whatever is going on, just sitting and letting things be. Eventually, if there's letting go and letting be, there's some calmness and clarity so that one begins to see that [here's the translation part] "I" cannot be found in the body or mind. Voila - mind mixed with emptiness. >My cat can just sit blankly staring into space - in fact he is more >than adept at that. Do I want to be a cat? I have two cats. I am always impressed by their mindfulness. Cept when they're snoozing in the sun :) I got em wild from the alley when they were kittens. They're very tame and loving, but they will still run away and hide in the bushes if I happen to move too fast or startle them somehow. So a certain amount of wisdom seems to be lacking. :) >The other thing happening is when I get to some sort of quietude >through following my breath for example, I find myself thinking about >Empitiness. I gain what I guess you would call an insight but then feel >thoroughly un-inspired. Let me give you an example: I felt very >strongly how I appear quite different to myself when in different >peoples company. When with my wife 'I' am completely different that >when with a work collegue. This (when in meditation) helped me see the >transitory nature of my sense of self, and its dependent arising. But >then I thought "...so what...?". I can understand the "so what" if, even though it is interesting to notice how our sense of self changes, we are still just left with a continuous sense of self in one form or another. Then ok, so my sense self changes around depending on circumstances.... I don't feel all that much better just knowing that.... >I felt like screaming for something to reveal itself to my mind "... >WELL COME ON THEN!!!". If you go of the idea of "something" which you are hoping to appear, and let go of the sense of self A and the sense of self B, then this allows for a gap in thinking, and the gap is where understanding is. If you allow the gap to widen and the thinking to loosen up, then you start to experience body and mind as they actually are - empty of self. It's like Doug's signature line (thanks Doug) - "There is a crack in everything. That's how the light gets in." The key aspect here is "allowing". Can't be "forcing" or "trying really hard" or any of these "active" things. These are just creating more psycho-physiological constructs. >Now sitting feelslike a useless chore. Something is a "chore" if it is something feels one has to "do". Just sit. Be. Let the bodymind wind down to it's natural "just there" state. See Genryu's reply below for the proper advice from a real Zen person. If you don't take this up with a teacher and keep asking questions here, I'm just going to keep on answering, everybody's going to get their knickers in a knot, and we'll have a jolly old time. Other traditions don't seem to have this hang-up. I don't see what the problem is. You're responsible for finding a teacher. I'm just some guy who has worked with his mind a little bit, and doesn't "mind" blathering on about what he can see from his current vantage point, which he will readily admit is like being quite impressed by the view one gets from climbing up the first rung on the ladder. Maybe that's just going to add to people's confusion, maybe it's helpful in some little way, maybe it'll just motivate them to find a teacher if they don't have one already. I'm not content to just bring all Dharma discussions back to "ask teacher. ask teacher." Well now that I've disclaimed myself completely and have stated for the record that I speak with no authority whatsoever, maybe the Tibetans and the Zen folks can just ignore me and leave the clubs and spears at home. If they have other ways of responding to your question, I'm sure you would appreciate that (as would I). If someone tries to tell me that sitting on a cushion is the sole property of Real Zen (TM), then they can take my ass to court, because the human buttocks seem to have invented the concept first. Thanks Ian > > Hi Tony, > > > > The advice you were given was actually to work with your breathing >before attempting Shikantaza, though Shikantaza is not that dissimilar >to Dzogchen, with which you have some familiarity. Following the >breath, after a time, naturally leads into Shikantaza, but it is best >to do Shikantaza itself with the support of a suitably qualified >teacher. Training in Zen does assume that one at some point is working >with a teacher and a Sangha, if possible. > > > > Genryu ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> What would our lives be like without music, dance, and theater? Donate or volunteer in the arts today at Network for Good! http://us.click.yahoo.com/WwRTUD/SOnJAA/i1hLAA/S27xlB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> Noble Eightfold Path: Right View, Right Intention, Right Speech, Right Action, Right Effort, Right Mindfulness, Right Concentration, Right Livelihood Yahoo! 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