On 7/28/05, mihaeru <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> --- In [email protected], Neutral Milk <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > It would be absolutely impossible to make any meaningful progress in
> > Zen practice without engaging and exercising one's intellect to the
> > fullest capacity.
>
> Well, there are indeed a lot of - ergh lets say "less intellectually"
> people - that have made considerable progress (if one may say so) in
> zen training. I even heard about "dull" people (excuse me) that have
> experienced enlightment. So intellectual capability is by no means
> absolutely necessary to get into a meaningfull zen training.
I think you may have misunderstood my original statement -- if you go
back and re-read it, you'll no doubt be able to see that I didn't mean
to say that people with lesser intellectual capabilities are not
capable of making meaningful progress. I only said that the ones who
do not exercise their intellects to the fullest capacity cannot make
any progress.
Whatever that capacity happens to be. In some people, that capacity is
awesome. In some other people, less so. It's the same as with anything
else. Like, if you wish to be healthy, then your best bet is to
exercise your physical abilities to their fullest capacity. It does
not imply that only phenomenally athletic people, such as Michael
Jordan, can ever hope to enjoy complete physical health. Everyone,
according to their constitution and capacity, and regardless of
whether thay are afflicted by any physical handicap or not, can enjoy
complete physical health, if only they respect and observe their
body's need to exercise given physical abilities to the fullest.
So, in Zen practice, one must go the whole nine yards. That doesn't
mean that only people of the likes of Albert Einstein can attain
enlightenment. Even the seemingly dull people can easily do it, if
only they do not abandon their own intellectual abilities, however
meagre those abilities may appear to be.
> - But no question about it: A certain degree of intellect is necessary
> to lead such large Zen communities as they have existed in for example
> old China or old Japan, where sometimes thousands of practitioners
> gathered. In our times we could also say: a certain level of know how,
> how to >>manage<< a large community is absolutely necessary.
> Naturally people with "proper insight" AND these management
> capabilities were choosen to lead a zen monastary as a zen master. But
> - there were also others, others that have "understood" the way and
> were living a somewhat quiter life, i.e. a life that has been not
> recorded by historical chronists.
It's not a question of know-how or street smart. Also, it's not a
management question, or a political one. It's the question of
respecting one's own resources and exercising them to the fullest.
Whatever those resources may be.
> A word to Hui-neng: We literally do not know much about him. Most of
> that what is known about him seems to be more legend than anything
> else. Even the existence of Hui-neng could not be prooved as some
> scholars write (see: Yampolsky, Philip B.: "The platform sutra of the
> sixth patriarch" This work is trying to trace the evolving of that
> sutra and the accompanying legends).
Same can be said about pretty much any historical figure. There will
always be the revisionists, the naysayers, the ones who delight in
debunking long held popular beliefs and ascribing everything to the
accompanying legends. No big whoop.
> But I agree to you, if you are saying that some are too easily putting
> down any intellectual discussion by simply saying: "Abandon words,
> abandon thinking".
Those are the people who feel tremendous relief when given the chance
to avoid any responsibility. Just sit there like a log, shut up, and
everything will be fine. I mean, that's unbeatable, right? Both from
the aloof individual's point of view ("OK, so I don't have to think
any more, I'm absolutely not accountable for anything, what a
relief!"), and from the leaders'/rulers' point of view (complete
obedience of the masses).
> To sum it up: Intellectual thinking may help in zen training, but it
> is by no means absolutely necessary.
I will definitelly not sign off on that summation. It's exactly the
opposite -- intellectual thinking is absolutely necessary in Zen
training.
Current Book Discussion: Appreciate Your Life by Taizan Maezumi Roshi
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