Responding to points made by Rajesh rdesa...@yahoo.com >>the only defence of the Indian nation? That the West would undermine us >>otherwise? Actually not just the West, we need a strong nation to prevent anyone from undermining us. I mention the West because at this point in time we live in The Empire of the West just as in previous times countries lived within the Roman Empire or the British Empire. Right now the West is spending billions to undermine countries that don't do what they are told to do - by doing 'false flag' attacks, by pushing 'economic reforms' sending money to fake NGOs, ...an endless series of tactics. A lot of talk re.nationalism is just 'educated' Indians aping what they read in Western media. It seems like common sense to me that a strong nation is needed if a group of people want to defend themselves and advance economically. OK so once you have a country it has to be strong - are u saying it is good to have a weak country that say allows states to secede?Is it OK with u if Punjab or Tamil Nadu or Assam secedes? . >>There is certainly much to be said about the ill-effects of the nation state. Like what?? The hackneyed response I get is, look what happened with Nazi Germany, they were extremely nationalistic and this led to 6 million Jews being killed. They forget that Germany was defeated because of the extremely nationalistic Russians who lost 26 million of their own people in decisively defeating Germany. >>Nandy...was referring to things like the increasing autonomy being granted >>to Scotland by the UK and the break-up of Czechoslovakia and >>Yugoslavia
Hello?? increasing autonomy being granted to Scotland by the UK?? How generous of the UK! All that is happening is that local Scots are sweeping the elections in Scotland. Let the Scots try doing ANYTHING really independent - such as not sending Scots to kill Iraqis and Afghanis or boycotting Israel for it's ongoing massacre of Palestinians and you will see immediately how little true autonomy Scotland has. I'm fuzzy about Czechoslovakia. Yugoslavia is the opposite situation from what you think it is. Yugoslavia used to be a strong nation that valiantly fought the Nazis but it was too independent for the West so they successfully dismembered it - remember Clinton actually bombing Yougoslavia? They have carved out a little slave country - Kosovo - that the West is running using it's own muslim terrorists and drug-runners >>In the interest of full disclosure, let me admit that I was raised a >>Hindu....Monotheism >>condemns people like me and even unbaptized babies to >>hell. Rajesh, like me previously, you have a completely wrong idea about Hinduism, monotheism, hell etc. Please re-read Bhagavad Gita and try some Deepak Chopra books, I was very impressed by the parts in Chopra's Quantum Healing where he reconciles the Quantum Physics with spirituality. This is a very long topic but I'll give it a shot: 1) There is a spirit world and a materialistic world. Spirit refers to the 'intrinsic' quality of things as when one says I like her spiritedness. In Hinduism Brahman is spirit. 2) The materialistic world arises from and is 100% dependent on it's existence on the spirit. In Hindu terms a single thought from the mind of Brahman causes all the worlds to spring into existence. 3) The basic problem is that humans, though their essence is spirit, become 'attached' to material objects and concepts which can only give very fleeting happiness and fleeting security. This state, of being attached, is hell. Not some fiery pit where one burns for eternity This is the basic concept behind all religions. 4) Now why doesn't the spirit just appear to us and tell us to snap out of this delusional attchment? Because it isn't human, it would be like one of us trying to tell a colony of ants to move to another location since the place they are now is going to be made into a petrol bunk. So spirit has to "appear in human form" That's the Avatar concept. In that sense, Christianity is just a subset of Hinduism. Jesus is another Avatar. In my mind all religions are telling us different ways to get out of the materialistic delelusion and back into contact with the spirit. See Gandhi's autobiography - that what he says his aim was, not independence for India. He was seeking to be closer to the spirit and all this other stuff just happened Just like if you have athletic talent and want to win a medal in the 100M sprint there are so many coaches with different methods but the aim is to run faster For one person this coach may be better for another, someone else. 5) However when the Avatars appear and clue us on to the truth, no one understands it because we are so heavily attached to the material world!! So then the message has to be "dumbed down" or modified to adapt to the current situation of each person. This accounts for the 1000's of religious sects. From Kali worshipping Bengalis to Roman Catholics going from bead to bead on their rosaries and hammering out 100's of Hail Mary Mother of God prayers,every day to me, a Protestant, with a tiny handwritten in pencil "Our Father Who Art in Heaven " prayer tucked in my wallet - quite remarkable diversity! Unfortunately most people who are religious are using their little religious insight to further their own materialistic aims e.g.offer prayers asking for spouse's promotion. And doing rituals are so much easier than actually changing actions but maybe better than doing nothing. 5) So then what is the point of life? As far as I can see, it is Krishna Lila - which is us(the gopis) engaged in play(lila) with the spirit(Krishna). The universe is putting on a Spectacular Display go ahead and enjoy Don't have to go far and wide to find the next Krishana since the spirit is everywhere, most obviously in little children. A side light is that the universe after arising from spirit gradually wears down - four yugas - and we are now in the last yuga - the terrible Kali Yuga where is everything is falling apart. One ca't just hold one's breath and wait for the next Yuga - this one has 1000's of years to go! The silver lining is that I've read that in Kali Yuga one doesn't need to a tremendous effort to get enlightened - just do a normal job and you will be a hero! . --- On Tue, 1/6/09, Rajesh <rdesa...@yahoo.com> wrote: From: Rajesh <rdesa...@yahoo.com> Subject: [ZESTAlternative] Re: The middle class wants development backed by authoritarianism - Ashis Nandy Interview To: ZESTAlternative@yahoogroups.com Date: Tuesday, January 6, 2009, 11:09 PM --- In ZESTAlternative@yahoogroups.com, Thomas Victor <sys...@...> wrote: > Especially for 3rd world countries like India, without strong nationalistic feelings, each country will be overwhelmed by the Western powers and will soon find itself like Egypt or Jordan or Iraq - with quisling rulers serving as proxies for colonial powers. > Is that the only defence of the Indian nation? That the West would undermine us otherwise? There is certainly much to be said about the ill-effects of the nation state. BTW, my take on Nandy's assertion that the West is moving away from the nation state was that he was referring to things like the increasing autonomy being granted to Scotland by the UK and the break-up of Czechoslovakia and Yugoslavia and the festering issues of Macedonia and Kurdistan. > Also since Nandy is criticizing Hinduism he should state that he himself is Christian. That's like articles by stock brokers on stocks - they are required to state if they own any of the stocks they are pushing. It's pretty shocking that millions of dollars flow into India to convert Indians - what was the figure for World Vision in Tamil Nadu last year? Almost 30 crores! And World Vision is not just a conversion factory it has a big reputation as a CIA front. Conversions are OK, I guess but not when fuelled by millions in FOREIGN MONEY. The Russians and Chinese realize what is going on and have stopped such inflows. > In the interest of full disclosure, let me admit that I was raised a Hindu. At the risk of being chauvinistic, let me state that I find conversion to a monotheistic faith a retrograde step. Monotheism is an inherently flawed world view since it condemns people like me and even unbaptized babies to hell. I would look differently at foreign money if it was converting people to an atheistic or polytheistic world view. That is probably progressive. > ------------------------------------ «¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥««¤»¥«¤»§«¤» This is ZESTAlternative, whose members circulate an article every alternate day on alternative modes to dominant ways of thinking in the modern world. Members are allowed to respond to an article but not initiate new discussions. If you got this mail as a forward, join ZESTAlternative by sending a blank mail to zestalternative-subscr...@yahoogroups.com or, if you have a Yahoo! 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