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And btw.: "Zope 3" is dead

There is only the ZTK and Bluebream as ZTK-based application server.

- -aj

Christopher Lozinski wrote:
>  First of all my compliments to all of the people who put in enormous
> amounts of work first figuring out how to build Zope 3, and then
> building it.  I am most grateful  I hope that these comments help you
> better understand your market.
> I should say that I have been using Zope 2 since 1999 and watching Zope
> 3 for the longest time.  I just could not get it.  Python is cool, but
> interfaces, adaptors, zcml etc just made my eyes glaze over.  I now
> understand why all that was necessary, but it was off putting.  I
> finally have an app I need to write, but the complexity quite delayed my
> working with Zope 3.  What is needed is a simple model to get people
> hooked. 
> So how to make Blue Bream easier to use?   I propose making the initial
> start up interface a simple content management system, kind of a Plone
> light.  We all know there is way too much stuff under the hood of
> Plone.  It slows software evolution.  In contrast I know that Zope 3 is
> easy to evolve, just getting started is hard.  So everyone starts in
> Plone, but never migrates to Zope 3.   So a simple content management
> system out of the box would make it very easy to get started in Blue
> Bream.  Then users could grow into the system. 
> I know Plone just had a new release . I am not sure what all is in it,
> but it would be great if Zope 3 on startup looked just like Plone, as
> far as possible.  Right out of the box allow users to register
> themselves, and add in the stock content types.  Calendar item, news
> item, things like that, not the developer centric ZPT and DTML file. 
> Also allow the developer stuff, but under a different branch of a
> hierarchical menu system.    Maybe only people with a developer or
> manager permission see those kinds of items.
> There are three parts to a simple content management system.   First,  a
> way to generate new content types, and second some dtml or page
> templates to display them.  Finally some examples would also be useful.
> So the critical thing I need is a way to put up custom content types
> using a web interface to build the schema.  Maybe I could even add a few
> python scripts.  And click on some options that usually go in an zcml
> file.  That would make it super fast to put up a custom content type.  
> That would make for a very easy entry for someone like myself into
> building a new BlueBream application.
> Then I need to add some DTML or page templates to display those content
> types.  I can already do that right through the web. 
> Finally a few existing content types like calendar item, link, and
> article would provide for great examples if anyone wanted to modify or
> copy them.  They could be implemented through the web as examples or
> base classes to be inherited or modified.
> That would be an awesome demo.  A real simple way to get started in Zope
> 3.  A simple abstraction that would make it accessible to those stupider
> developers like myself.   And everyone else out there.  Once hooked,
> over time we could dig deeper.
> That is all I want.  A simple content management system out of the box,
> make it easy to add my own content type.  Sure the serious hackers can
> throw all that out, but for the average end user/developer, that would
> be a hugely tempting improvement over using Plone.   If I can add a few
> dtml pages to display my content, it would all be very easy to get
> started.  Later I could export to the file system, and svn.
> But that is not what I currently get.   Instead, in my case, we will go
> with the system admin manually adding users for a while.  And I have to
> learn how to write an interface file, which is way way more difficult
> than just using a web form to define one.  The web form, lays out my
> choices, and only allows for legal schema definitions.  Much better. 
> Okay, so much for my wish list.  Here are some more specific comments.
> Thank you for providing the user interface.   Registration is quite
> confusing.  First I create something, then I have to register it. 
> Hello, if I created it, then just go ahead and register it for me.  Take
> a ZPT page.  I am a zope 2 developer.  I know what that is.  Then they
> ask me to register it.  Took a while to figure out what that means.   I
> still have no idea what all those options for interfaces are.  If you
> have to have all those choices there, just label one default for me.  It
> can't be that hard.  Maybe register one by default, and provide the
> option to change it.  Make the page say clearly that something has been
> registered.   And have a clear link to the help page for choosing an
> interface to register. Or should I say change to. 
> Then I cannot add a python script through the user interface.  What
> happened to that stuff?   Are python scripts dead?   I loved them. 
> Actually I Preferred the Zope 2 pull down menu of things to add.  Over
> time it did get a bit long.  Good to have a hierarchy of things to add.
>   Best to have a hierarchy of things to add. 
> Hope that helps.   I really just want to give good feedback.  I hope
> that I have not offended anyone with my frank feedback.  Overall Zope 3
> looks great, and is very fast for development.   But I think we could
> make it significantly easier for new users to get started with. 
> Chris
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