Jim, Ben, et al, On 6/10/08, Jim Bromer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Ben wrote: > > I think that AGI, right now,
The thing that "stumbled" me when I first got here, is understanding just what is meant here by "AGI". It is NOT the process that goes on behind our eyeballs, as that is clearly an emergent property that can result in VERY different functioning and brain mappings between individuals. Neither is it "anything that works" because of the instant rejection of Dr. Eliza's methods. No, it is something in between these two extremes, something like "programs that learn to behave intelligently". Perhaps Ben or someone else could propose a better brief definition that would be widely accepted here. could also be analyzed as having four > main approaches > > 1-- logic-based ... including a host of different logic formalisms Mike and I have been challenging the overall feasibility of these approaches, which is what started this thread. Hence, let's avoid thread recursion. 2-- neural net/ brain simulation based ... including some biologically > quasi-realistic systems and some systems that are more formal and > abstract > > 3-- integrative ... which itself is a very broad category with a lot > of heterogeneity ... including e.g. systems composed of wholly > distinct black boxes versus systems that have intricate real-time > feedbacks between different components' innards Isn't this just #1 expanded to cover some obvious shortcomings? 4-- miscellaneous ... evolutionary learning, etc. etc. 5.- Carefully analyzed and simply programmed approaches to accomplish tasks that would seem to require intelligence, but (by most definitions) are not intelligent. Chess playing programs and Dr. Eliza fall into this bin. Apparently, Ben is intentionally excluding this bin from consideration. The MAJOR importance of this particular bin is that other forms of AGI are as worthless doing this sort of work as people are playing Chess, because simple programs can easily do this sort of work RIGHT NOW, without further development. Hence, many of AGI's stated hopes and dreams need to be retargeted to doing things that can NOT be done by simple programs. It's hardly a herd, it's more of a chaos ;-p As we are discovering here, herds can always be subdivided into clusters. But then, we start arguing about what should be clustered together. -- Ben > ----------------------------------------------- > > I think you have to include complexity. Although complexity problems can > be / should be seen as an issue relevant to all AGI paradigms, the > significance of the problem makes it a primary concern to me. I would say > that I am interested in the problems of complexity and integration of > concepts. It is unclear how Dr. Eliza's methods fail to do this, except that people must code the machine knowledge rather than having the program learn it from observation/experience. Note that Dr. Eliza appears to be able to handle the hand-coded machine knowledge of the entire world. Note that the "big problems" in the world are generally NOT "intelligence limited", but rather appear to be "approach limited". To illustrate, one man, Saddam Hussein, did something in Iraq that the entire US military backed by the nearly limitless wealth of the US government can't even come close to doing - keep the peace, albeit by leaving a few dead bodies in his wake. The limitation in intelligence was in failing to see that his methods were *necessary* to keep the peace in that particular heterogeneous society, so our only rational choices were to either leave him alone to run Iraq, or invade and adopt his methods. Doing neither, things can only get worse, and Worse, and WORSE... Now that we have killed him, we have no apparent way back out. Alternatively, there are now programs (mostly hidden inside the CIA) to recognize patterns in apparently random messages, used as the first step in breaking secret codes. Perhaps you could better define what you mean by "complexity" to obviate my questions? Steve Richfield ------------------------------------------- agi Archives: http://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now RSS Feed: http://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/ Modify Your Subscription: http://www.listbox.com/member/?member_id=8660244&id_secret=103754539-40ed26 Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com
