Terren, I know a good number of VC's and government and private funding decision makers... and believe me, **none** of them has remotely enough extra time to wade through the amount of text that flows on this list, to find the nuggets of real intellectual interest!!!
-- Ben G On Wed, Oct 15, 2008 at 12:07 PM, Terren Suydam <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > One other important point... if I were a potential venture capitalist or > some other sort of funding decision-maker, I would be on this list and > watching the debate. I'd be looking for intelligent defense of (hopefully) > intelligent criticism to increase my confidence about the decision to fund. > This kind of forum also allows you to sort of advertise your approach to > those who are new to the game, particularly young folks who might one day be > valuable contributors, although I suppose that's possible in the more > tightly-focused forum as well. > > --- On *Wed, 10/15/08, Terren Suydam <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>* wrote: > > From: Terren Suydam <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Subject: Re: [agi] META: A possible re-focusing of this list > To: agi@v2.listbox.com > Date: Wednesday, October 15, 2008, 11:29 AM > > > > Hi Ben, > > I think that the current focus has its pros and cons and the more narrowed > focus you suggest would have *its* pros and cons. As you said, the con of > the current focus is the boring repetition of various anti positions. But > the pro of allowing that stuff is for those of us who use the conflict among > competing viewpoints to clarify our own positions and gain insight. Since > you seem to be fairly clear about your own viewpoint, it is for you a > situation of diminishing returns (although I will point out that a recent > blog post of yours on the subject of play was inspired, I think, by a point > Mike Tintner made, who is probably the most obvious target of your > frustration). > > For myself, I have found tremendous value here in the debate (which > probably says a lot about the crudeness of my philosophy). I have had many > new insights and discovered some false assumptions. If you narrowed the > focus, I would probably leave (I am not offering that as a reason not to do > it! :-) I would be disappointed, but I would understand if that's the > decision you made. > > Finally, although there hasn't been much novelty among the debate (from > your perspective, anyway), there is always the possibility that there will > be. This seems to be the only public forum for AGI discussion out there (are > there others, anyone?), so presumably there's a good chance it would show up > here, and that is good for you and others actively involved in AGI research. > > Best, > Terren > > > --- On *Wed, 10/15/08, Ben Goertzel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>* wrote: > > From: Ben Goertzel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Subject: [agi] META: A possible re-focusing of this list > To: agi@v2.listbox.com > Date: Wednesday, October 15, 2008, 11:01 AM > > > Hi all, > > I have been thinking a bit about the nature of conversations on this list. > > It seems to me there are two types of conversations here: > > 1) > Discussions of how to design or engineer AGI systems, using current > computers, according to designs that can feasibly be implemented by > moderately-sized groups of people > > 2) > Discussions about whether the above is even possible -- or whether it is > impossible because of weird physics, or poorly-defined special > characteristics of human creativity, or the so-called "complex systems > problem", or because AGI intrinsically requires billions of people and > quadrillions of dollars, or whatever > > Personally I am pretty bored with all the conversations of type 2. > > It's not that I consider them useless discussions in a grand sense ... > certainly, they are valid topics for intellectual inquiry. > > But, to do anything real, you have to make **some** decisions about what > approach to take, and I've decided long ago to take an approach of trying to > engineer an AGI system. > > Now, if someone had a solid argument as to why engineering an AGI system is > impossible, that would be important. But that never seems to be the case. > Rather, what we hear are long discussions of peoples' intuitions and > opinions in this regard. People are welcome to their own intuitions and > opinions, but I get really bored scanning through all these intuitions about > why AGI is impossible. > > One possibility would be to more narrowly focus this list, specifically on > **how to make AGI work**. > > If this re-focusing were done, then philosophical arguments about the > impossibility of engineering AGI in the near term would be judged **off > topic** by definition of the list purpose. > > Potentially, there could be another list, something like "agi-philosophy", > devoted to philosophical and weird-physics and other discussions about > whether AGI is possible or not. I am not sure whether I feel like running > that other list ... and even if I ran it, I might not bother to read it very > often. I'm interested in new, substantial ideas related to the in-principle > possibility of AGI, but not interested at all in endless philosophical > arguments over various peoples' intuitions in this regard. > > One fear I have is that people who are actually interested in building AGI, > could be scared away from this list because of the large volume of anti-AGI > philosophical discussion. Which, I add, almost never has any new content, > and mainly just repeats well-known anti-AGI arguments (Penrose-like physics > arguments ... "mind is too complex to engineer, it has to be evolved" ... > "no one has built an AGI yet therefore it will never be done" ... etc.) > > What are your thoughts on this? > > -- Ben > > > > > On Wed, Oct 15, 2008 at 10:49 AM, Jim Bromer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >> On Wed, Oct 15, 2008 at 10:14 AM, Ben Goertzel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> > >> > Actually, I think COMP=false is a perfectly valid subject for discussion >> on >> > this list. >> > >> > However, I don't think discussions of the form "I have all the answers, >> but >> > they're top-secret and I'm not telling you, hahaha" are particularly >> useful. >> > >> > So, speaking as a list participant, it seems to me this thread has >> probably >> > met its natural end, with this reference to proprietary weird-physics >> IP. >> > >> > However, speaking as list moderator, I don't find this thread so >> off-topic >> > or unpleasant as to formally kill the thread. >> > >> > -- Ben >> >> If someone doesn't want to get into a conversation with Colin about >> whatever it is that he is saying, then they should just exercise some >> self-control and refrain from doing so. >> >> I think Colin's ideas are pretty far out there. But that does not mean >> that he has never said anything that might be useful. >> >> My offbeat topic, that I believe that the Lord may have given me some >> direction about a novel approach to logical satisfiability that I am >> working on, but I don't want to discuss the details about the >> algorithms until I have gotten a chance to see if they work or not, >> was never intended to be a discussion about the theory itself. I >> wanted to have a discussion about whether or not a good SAT solution >> would have a significant influence on AGI, and whether or not the >> unlikely discovery of an unexpected breakthrough on SAT would serve as >> rational evidence in support of the theory that the Lord helped me >> with the theory. >> >> Although I am skeptical about what I think Colin is claiming, there is >> an obvious parallel between his case and mine. There are relevant >> issues which he wants to discuss even though his central claim seems >> to private, and these relevant issues may be interesting. >> >> Colin's unusual reference to some solid path which cannot be yet >> discussed is annoying partly because it so obviously unfounded. If he >> had the proof (or a method), then why isn't he writing it up (or >> working it out). A similar argument was made against me by the way, >> but the difference was that I never said that I had the proof or >> method. (I did say that you should get used to a polynomial time >> solution to SAT but I never said that I had a working algorithm.) >> >> My point is that even though people may annoy you with what seems like >> unsubstantiated claims, that does not disqualify everything they have >> said. That rule could so easily be applied to anyone who posts on that >> list. >> >> Jim Bromer >> >> >> ------------------------------------------- >> agi >> Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now >> RSS Feed: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/ >> Modify Your Subscription: https://www.listbox.com/member/?&; >> Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com >> > > > > -- > Ben Goertzel, PhD > CEO, Novamente LLC and Biomind LLC > Director of Research, SIAI > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > "Nothing will ever be attempted if all possible objections must be first > overcome " - Dr Samuel Johnson > > > ------------------------------ > *agi* | Archives <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now> > <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/> | > Modify<https://www.listbox.com/member/?&;>Your Subscription > <http://www.listbox.com> > > > ------------------------------ > *agi* | Archives <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now> > <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/> | > Modify<https://www.listbox.com/member/?&;>Your Subscription > <http://www.listbox.com> > > > ------------------------------ > *agi* | Archives <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now> > <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/> | > Modify<https://www.listbox.com/member/?&;>Your Subscription > <http://www.listbox.com> > -- Ben Goertzel, PhD CEO, Novamente LLC and Biomind LLC Director of Research, SIAI [EMAIL PROTECTED] "Nothing will ever be attempted if all possible objections must be first overcome " - Dr Samuel Johnson ------------------------------------------- agi Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now RSS Feed: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/ Modify Your Subscription: https://www.listbox.com/member/?member_id=8660244&id_secret=117534816-b15a34 Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com
