> they are like a microscope or a telescope for the mind. Meant to read as "for the study of the mind". What I am trying to get at is the value of brain-change to brain design...
On 11/24/08, Eric Burton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > This is a really good avenue of discussion for me. Mind-changing > experiences are fully within my conversational comfort zone. I > actually think psychedelics are very nearly on topic for the AGI list > inasmuch as they are like a microscope or a telescope for the mind. > They produce new points of view and to some extent, a window into > otherwise invisible worlds. The difficulty in the use of psychedelics > as analytic apparatus would seem to be data collection ,_, > > On 11/24/08, Robin Gane-McCalla <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> I think psychedelics and the psychedelic experience are much more >> complicated than most people realize and you only go into a small instance >> of their complexity. However I'm not sure how useful they will be in >> trying >> to build intelligence on a computer. Computers can't take psychedelics, >> psychedelics are substrate dependent, so much so that they affect humans >> differently. Hypothetically we could design psychedelics for computers >> but >> I don't think that would be a good idea. >> >> On Mon, Nov 24, 2008 at 10:30 AM, Ed Porter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> >>> Since I assume Ben, as well as a lot of the rest of us, want the AGI >>> movement to receive respectability in the academic and particularly in >>> the >>> funding community, it is probably best that other than brain-science- or >>> AGI-focused discussions of the effects of drugs should not become too >>> common >>> on the AGI list itself. Ben, of course, is the ultimate decider of that. >>> >>> I remember the excitement I had over 3 to 4 decades ago when I >>> experimented >>> with psychedelics (although at relatively low dosages), so I can >>> sympathize >>> with the enthusiasms of current experimenters. And I find some of the >>> written accounts of such experiments that I have read on the web to be >>> very >>> thoughtful, at time reminiscent, and very interesting from a brain >>> science/AGI point of view. But right now I am sufficiently busy with >>> more >>> concrete realities that I am not in the market for such encounters. >>> >>> I do think psychedelic experiences can shed valuable light on the extent >>> to >>> which all perception is hallucination, just normally it is well turned >>> and >>> controlled hallucination. >>> >>> For example, the experiences some have reported, including off list in >>> this >>> discussion, of the sense of 3+1 D spacetime being shattered, or being >>> perceived as very different, is not a surprise if one considers that your >>> normal perception of space and time is an extremely complex and carefully >>> controlled hallucination. If you substantially remove that control, it >>> is >>> not surprising that, for example, a cubist-like deconstruction of special >>> perception might occur. After all, your mind has to stitch together its >>> normal visual continuousness of 3D spatial reality from stereographic >>> projections onto V1, which because of jerky saccades of the eye, are a >>> rapid, disjointed, succession of grossly fish-eyed projections. So when >>> psychedelics interfere with the normal process of stitching together >>> projections from V1 and/or V2 and from remembered matching patterns of >>> shapes and objects --- each having their own set of dimensions --- it is >>> not >>> surprising that a very different perception of space could arise, >>> including >>> a perception of a dis-joint set of many more than than 3+1 dimensions. >>> >>> With regard to perceptions of direct communicating with a myriad of other >>> consciousnesses, such as elves, this is not surprising either, since the >>> concept of unity of consciousness is also a construct generated by mental >>> behavior and mental models, as is the construct of 3D space. Your brain >>> is >>> capable of generating many voices, many senses of awareness at once. But >>> it >>> normally works best, for generating behavior that helps humans survive, >>> to >>> have a greater, more distinct divide between what is conscious and what >>> is >>> kept in the subconscious, so that greater focus on the problems and >>> behaviors at hand can be achieved. >>> >>> I am not, in any way trying to belittle the importance, nor "realness" of >>> psychedelic experiences, but I am saying that my study of brain science >>> and >>> my own experiences decades ago with psychedelics make me think that one >>> cannot always trust one's perceptions, particularly when one is on >>> psychedelics. >>> >>> All perception can be considered hallucinations, that is, constructs of >>> the >>> brain --- but some hallucinations are more valuable for certain tasks >>> than >>> others. >>> >>> I think psychedelics, if properly used, can be of sufficient worth, in >>> helping humans better understand our own minds and spirits and their >>> relationship to reality --- that --- if our society were more rational >>> --- >>> it probably should have some limited ritualized used of psychedelics, as >>> have many primitive societies. But it is not clear to me yet how >>> rational >>> our society is capable of being, particularly if drug use is too widely >>> spread. Our society is changing so rapidly that much of traditional folk >>> wisdom is out of date, and much of what has replaced it has be generated >>> by >>> commercially driven culture, that is, by its very nature exploitative. >>> >>> I think such drugs can have great danger of removing people from >>> important >>> aspects of reality. As humanity starts spiraling ever faster into the >>> wormhole of the singularity, and as the world becomes more and more >>> crowded, >>> polluted, and competitive, and the have-nots increasingly have more >>> power, >>> and as the media can provide increasingly seductive non-realities, and as >>> machine superintelligences increasingly decrease the relative value of >>> human >>> work and human thought, I fear that truly mind-altering drugs, if use too >>> widely, could increase, rather than decrease, the chance that humanity >>> will >>> fare well --- as civilization, as we know it, is increasingly and more >>> rapidly distorted by the momentus changes that face us. >>> >>> But I am 60 years old, so maybe my viewpoint is out of date. >>> >>> Ed Porter >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------------------- >>> agi >>> Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now >>> RSS Feed: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/ >>> Modify Your Subscription: >>> https://www.listbox.com/member/?&; >>> Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> Robin Gane-McCalla >> YIM: Robin_Ganemccalla >> AIM: Robinganemccalla >> >> >> >> ------------------------------------------- >> agi >> Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now >> RSS Feed: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/ >> Modify Your Subscription: >> https://www.listbox.com/member/?&; >> Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com >> > ------------------------------------------- agi Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now RSS Feed: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/ Modify Your Subscription: https://www.listbox.com/member/?member_id=8660244&id_secret=120640061-aded06 Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com
