<One thousand years before Mahabharata and
Bhagavadgita, Chandogya Upanishad carried the wonderful story of Satyakama where
an illegitimate son of a slave woman >was accepted as a brahmin. Later
Satyakama became the principal hymn writer in Chandogya Upanishad. His disciple,
Upakoshal, saw the famous truth Sky is Love >yadeva kham tadeva kam
iti.>
Funny thing is do you know what is
the fallacy even of this one example.
The fallacy is the SON is accepted
as a BRAHMIN because HIS MOTHER, a slave woman, MUST BE A BRAHMIN BECAUSE
SHE WAS TELLING THE TRUTH.
The son was not accepted as a
Brahmin because of his own merit, but because of his mother's
merit.
So this prove that a BRAHMIN'S
SON IS A BRAHMIN.
That is the hole I was talking
about.
I wonder why Hindu scholars donot
see this hole in the example?
Again, let someone prove me dumb
and wrong.
Rajen
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, March 24, 2006 10:27
AM
Subject: Re: [Assam] Hereditary Caste
System in India
But Rajen,
<One thousand years before Mahabharata and
Bhagavadgita, Chandogya Upanishad carried the wonderful story of Satyakama
where an illegitimate son of a slave woman was accepted as a brahmin. Later
Satyakama became the principal hymn writer in Chandogya Upanishad. His
disciple, Upakoshal, saw the famous truth Sky is Love yadeva kham tadeva
kam iti.>
*** Don't you get it? Isn't that a perfect example of the REAL Hinduism's
goodness?
Now don't go about arguing that it is one in a million exception to the
rule.
In fact I will add one more fine example: President Kalam was adopted by
Tamil Brahmins--and look what he turned out to be! Will you take issue with
that too?
<A Brahmin, the so called highest caste of
Hindus, is defined as a person with a heart as pure as a newborn baby.
This proves that all newborn babies are Brahmin.>
*** See, another awesome bit of reasoning here. Again it is them bad guys
who would not allow, even the BRAHMIN newborn of a Dalit to enter a temple, no
doubt guarded against invasion by untouchables by people with hearts as pure
as those of the newborn--Brahmin priests.
<In modern India, democracy is ruined by
caste-oriented vote-banks practiced by the political parties.
>
*** And mind you, these are of a PARTICULARly nasty ilk of politicians!
Take a wild guess on WHO they are!
Very, very skeptically yours,
c :-)
At 9:28 AM -0600 3/24/06, Rajen Barua wrote:
Himenda:
I
am yet to find a Hindu scholar who would say that Caste was hereditary in
past. Everybody, starting from Radhaksrishnan and all, try to defend the
position that the caste system was actually NOT hereditary in the past
citing examples like you did.
But
till now nobody could convince me that it was NOT hereditary. Frankly
speaking I can see the holes in the very examples you cited. I think all the
Hindu scholars will call me a dumb guy, but I always ask the following dumb
question to the defenders of the case to prove that the caste system was NOT
hereditary in the past:
Question:
If
caste system was NOT hereditary at some point in the past, then there must
have been a system in vogue sometime in the past to regulate the caste
system so that it does not become hereditary. A system like say at the age
of (5, 10, 12 you name it) the boy or girl is taken to a test (like the
Mandarins in China) where they are tested and someone is declaring "OK, you
become a Brahmin, you become a Sudra etc.' If you think
carefully, without such a Mandarin system in vogue, caste system will have
to be hereditary.
Now
out of the million written words, stories, upakhyans in so many Hindu Kabya,
Mahalkbaya, Purans etc can anyone can show me one single incident which will
indicate that such a system ever existed in India.
So
far nobody could show me. But there may be such instances. But as I told you
I am a dumb guy. Show me where is the beef.
I
think we should accept whatever it was in the past and move on. But we
should not try to defend something which is not true.
But
I amy be wrong. I would like to see someone proving that I am
wrong.
That will be an enlightenment.
Rajen Barua
From: Himendra Thakur
To: Barua25 ;
Ram Sarangapani ; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ; assam@assamnet.org
Sent: Thursday, March 23, 2006 10:02 PM
Subject: Hereditary Caste System in India
Dear Rajen, Ram and
Umesh,
As regards hereditary caste system,
please consider the frollowing few points:
Out of many verses of Rikveda,
the famous twelfth verse of the Purusha Sukta of Rikveda sounds
non-typical:
brahmana asya mukham asit
bahu rajanyakah kritah
ubdha tat asya yad vaishyah
padbhyam sudrah ajayata
brahmin became his mouth, kshatriya
(became his) arms, vaishya (became his) thighs, sudra was born from the
feet
The distinctive use of the words
became (asit) and born (ajayata) indicates that this
verse is not typical of most of the allegorical descriptions in Rik Veda
verses. Some scholars [I am still seeking the reference] opine that this
verse was added to Rik Veda at a later time by interested parties. On the
other hand, the creation of the castes is described in a different way in
Shatapatha Brahmana (2/10/11) or Taittiriya Brahmana (3/12/9/2) where the
sudra caste is not mentioned at all.
More accurately, at another
place in Rik Veda (9/112), we hear the rishi :
job of all persons cannot
be the same. A carpenter straightens wood, a physician looks after a
patient, and a singer seeks the priest. Look at me ! I am a
hymn-writer, my son is a physician, and my daughter is a cook
Bhagavadgita is absolutely clear
(4/13) that the four castes were created according to guna and
karma (aptitude and job)
definitely not according to birth. The
verses 41-44 in chapter 18 are description of the different natural
aptitudes of different people, not a justification of the hereditary caste
system.
A Brahmin, the so called highest
caste of Hindus, is defined as a person with a heart as pure as a
newborn baby. This proves that all newborn babies are Brahmin. This is
supported by the verse in Mahabharata (Shanti Parva Chapter
188):
na visheshah asti varnanam sarvam
bhahmam idam jagat
brahmana purvasristam hi karmabhih
varnatam gatam
There is nothing so special about
the hereditary castes. At the beginning, everyone is a Brahmin.
Castes come up later according to job.
One thousand years before Mahabharata
and Bhagavadgita, Chandogya Upanishad carried the wonderful story of
Satyakama where an illegitimate son of a slave woman was accepted as a
brahmin. Later Satyakama became the principal hymn writer in Chandogya
Upanishad. His disciple, Upakoshal, saw the famous truth Sky is Love
yadeva kham tadeva kam iti.
GROUND REALITY OF HEREDITARY CASTE
SYSTEM TODAY:
In spite of all scriptural
clarification, Hindus in India cannot get rid of the immovable yoke of
hereditary caste system. It is very important to study the
cause.
The causes of hereditary caste system
appear to be the same as those of racialism all over the
world.
In modern India, democracy is ruined
by caste-oriented vote-banks practiced by the political parties.
Unimaginable violence and cruelty are committed in the name of caste.
Dowry system, that causes bride-burning in many cases, flourishes in the
system of arranged marriage, which is a direct consequence of hereditary
caste system.
I think Inter-caste marriage, based
on love and commitment between the couples, will eliminate the twin-headed
monster of hereditary caste system and dowry system in
India.
With the best
wishes,
Himendra
----- Original Message -----
From: umesh
sharma
To: Rajen
Barua ; Ram
Sarangapani
Cc: assam@assamnet.org
Sent: Thursday, March 23, 2006 11:06 AM
Subject: Re: [Assam] HPI, March 20, 2006
Rajen-da,
Even this verse by itself doesnot say that Brahmin is by
birth - it merely states that Brahmins are intellectuals (from head or
brain) - thus does show that intellect is superior to other things - if
you believe that one part of human body is more important than others.
Kshatriya is said to come from arms - denoting strength -used for
fighting -does not say about hereditary caste system.
On the other hand it speaks of cohesion - in the sense that
all people in any soicety are doing equally important work - just as
parts of a human body - regardless of their social status. I repeat - no
mention of hereditary caste system.
Umesh
Rajen Barua
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
I think it is the
Gita.
I will check
Rajenda
----- Original Message -----
From: umesh sharma
To: Rajen
Barua ; Ram
Sarangapani
Cc: assam@assamnet.org
Sent: Thursday, March 23, 2006 9:37 AM
Subject: Re: [Assam] HPI, March 20,
2006
I do recall that there is such a verse but I do not
recall seeing it in Geeta or that Krishna said it.
Umesh
Rajen Barua <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
I will have
to read the verse in detail. I think Krishna states
bothways:
Those who are
born out of my head are the Brahmins
Those who are
born out of my shoulder, are the Kshatriyas.
Those who are
born out of my stomach are the Vaishya.
Those who are
born out of my feet are the Sudras.
Can you check
if above is true.
Rajenda
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