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This is a oft repeated story by all
Hindu scholars including Dr Radhakrishnan. ( I will post the story when I find).
The full story says thatm since the slave girl was telling that she did not know
who was Satyakama's father since she slept with many people etc.
Speaking thus the slave girl was aparently telling the truth as it was and
was not trying to hide anything. Now for someone to tell such bitter truth even
at the risk of her own honor, she must be a Brahmin. Thus opined , the son
Satyakama, was accepted as a Brahmin by the Guru. Now from this story what do
you infer? I would interpret that OK the mother, the slave girl was a Brahmin by
definition. But why the son was accepted as Brahmin. Because he was his mother's
son.? I don't see any other explanation.
Will somebody help us
here?
RB
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, March 24, 2006 11:01
AM
Subject: Re: [Assam] Hereditary Caste
System in India
>One thousand years before
Mahabharata and Bhagavadgita, Chandogya Upanishad carried the
wonderful story of Satyakama where an illegitimate son of a slave
woman was accepted as a brahmin. Later Satyakama became the principal
hymn writer in Chandogya Upanishad. His disciple, Upakoshal, saw the
famous truth Sky is Love yadeva kham tadeva kam
iti.
*** No I don't think that is what I read Rajen. If the anecdote is
accurate ( forgive the oxymoron nature of the point ) , then the 'slave woman'
--who not a Brahmin, gave birth to the illegitimate Satyakam, who was accepted
as a Brahmin.
But you are right that it does not tell anyone WHY Satykam was accepted
as a Brahmin. Perhaps because the man who sired him was a Brahmin? Certainly
not on his own merit, which became known only much later, when he became the
principal hymn-writer. Which of course vindicated those who accepted him as a
Brahmin to begin with. The anecdote was recorded probably for the vindication
of those who committed the transgression ( more than likely wayward Brahmin
supporters of the wild-oats sowing father) of accepting Satyakam as a Brhmin,
in spite of being born of a 'slave',
>In spite of all scriptural clarification,
Hindus in India cannot get rid of the immovable yoke of hereditary caste
system. It is very important to study the cause.
>The
causes of hereditary caste system appear to be the same as those of racialism
all over the world.
*** No wonder therefore, the hereditary caste-system is at par with all
of them who did and still do practise racism!
What is your problem Rajen :-)?
At 10:38 AM -0600 3/24/06, Rajen Barua wrote:
<One thousand
years before Mahabharata and Bhagavadgita, Chandogya Upanishad carried the
wonderful story of Satyakama where an illegitimate son of a slave woman
>was accepted as a brahmin. Later Satyakama became the principal hymn
writer in Chandogya Upanishad. His disciple, Upakoshal, saw the famous truth
Sky is Love >yadeva kham tadeva kam iti.>
Funny thing is do you know what is the fallacy even of this one
example.
The
fallacy is the SON is accepted as a BRAHMIN because HIS MOTHER, a slave
woman, MUST BE A BRAHMIN BECAUSE SHE WAS TELLING THE
TRUTH.
The
son was not accepted as a Brahmin because of his own merit, but because of
his mother's merit.
So
this prove that a BRAHMIN'S SON IS A BRAHMIN.
That is the hole I was talking about.
I
wonder why Hindu scholars donot see this hole in the
example?
Again, let someone prove me dumb and wrong.
Rajen
----- Original Message -----
From: Chan
Mahanta
To: Rajen
Barua
Cc: assam@assamnet.org
Sent: Friday, March 24, 2006 10:27 AM
Subject: Re: [Assam] Hereditary Caste System in
India
But Rajen,
<One thousand years before
Mahabharata and Bhagavadgita, Chandogya Upanishad carried the wonderful
story of Satyakama where an illegitimate son of a slave woman was accepted
as a brahmin. Later Satyakama became the principal hymn writer in
Chandogya Upanishad. His disciple, Upakoshal, saw the famous truth Sky is
Love yadeva kham tadeva kam iti.>
*** Don't you get it? Isn't that a perfect example of the REAL
Hinduism's goodness?
Now don't go about arguing that it is one in a million
exception to the rule.
In fact I will add one more fine example: President Kalam was
adopted by Tamil Brahmins--and look what he turned out to be! Will you
take issue with that too?
<A Brahmin, the so called highest
caste of Hindus, is defined as a person with a heart as pure as a
newborn baby. This proves that all newborn babies are
Brahmin.>
*** See, another awesome bit of reasoning here. Again it is
them bad guys who would not allow, even the BRAHMIN newborn of a Dalit to
enter a temple, no doubt guarded against invasion by untouchables by
people with hearts as pure as those of the newborn--Brahmin
priests.
<In modern India, democracy is
ruined by caste-oriented vote-banks practiced by the political
parties. >
*** And mind you, these are of a PARTICULARly nasty ilk of
politicians! Take a wild guess on WHO they are!
Very, very skeptically yours,
c :-)
At 9:28 AM -0600 3/24/06, Rajen Barua wrote:
Himenda:
I am yet to find a
Hindu scholar who would say that Caste was hereditary in past.
Everybody, starting from Radhaksrishnan and all, try to defend the
position that the caste system was actually NOT hereditary in the past
citing examples like you did.
But till now nobody
could convince me that it was NOT hereditary. Frankly speaking I can see
the holes in the very examples you cited. I think all the Hindu scholars
will call me a dumb guy, but I always ask the following dumb question to
the defenders of the case to prove that the caste system was NOT
hereditary in the past:
Question:
If caste system was
NOT hereditary at some point in the past, then there must have been a
system in vogue sometime in the past to regulate the caste system so
that it does not become hereditary. A system like say at the age of (5,
10, 12 you name it) the boy or girl is taken to a test (like the
Mandarins in China) where they are tested and someone is declaring "OK,
you become a Brahmin, you become a Sudra etc.' If you think
carefully, without such a Mandarin system in vogue, caste system will
have to be hereditary.
Now out of the
million written words, stories, upakhyans in so many Hindu Kabya,
Mahalkbaya, Purans etc can anyone can show me one single incident which
will indicate that such a system ever existed in
India.
So far nobody could
show me. But there may be such instances. But as I told you I am a dumb
guy. Show me where is the beef.
I think we should
accept whatever it was in the past and move on. But we should not try to
defend something which is not true.
But I amy be wrong.
I would like to see someone proving that I am
wrong.
That will be an
enlightenment.
Rajen
Barua
From: Himendra
Thakur
To: Barua25 ; Ram Sarangapani ; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ; assam@assamnet.org
Sent: Thursday, March 23, 2006 10:02
PM
Subject: Hereditary Caste System in
India
Dear Rajen, Ram and
Umesh,
As regards hereditary caste
system, please consider the frollowing few
points:
Out of many verses of
Rikveda, the famous twelfth verse of the Purusha Sukta of Rikveda
sounds non-typical:
brahmana asya mukham
asit bahu rajanyakah kritah
ubdha tat asya yad vaishyah
padbhyam sudrah ajayata
brahmin became his mouth,
kshatriya (became his) arms, vaishya (became his) thighs, sudra was
born from the feet
The distinctive use of the words
became (asit) and born (ajayata) indicates that this
verse is not typical of most of the allegorical descriptions in Rik
Veda verses. Some scholars [I am still seeking the reference] opine
that this verse was added to Rik Veda at a later time by interested
parties. On the other hand, the creation of the castes is described in
a different way in Shatapatha Brahmana (2/10/11) or Taittiriya
Brahmana (3/12/9/2) where the sudra caste is not mentioned at
all.
More accurately, at another
place in Rik Veda (9/112), we hear the rishi :
job of all persons cannot
be the same. A carpenter straightens wood, a physician looks
after a patient, and a singer seeks the priest. Look at me ! I
am a hymn-writer, my son is a physician, and my daughter is a cook
Bhagavadgita is absolutely clear
(4/13) that the four castes were created according to guna
and karma (aptitude and job)
definitely not according to
birth. The verses 41-44 in chapter 18 are description of the different
natural aptitudes of different people, not a justification of the
hereditary caste system.
A Brahmin, the so called highest
caste of Hindus, is defined as a person with a heart as pure as a
newborn baby. This proves that all newborn babies are Brahmin. This is
supported by the verse in Mahabharata (Shanti Parva Chapter
188):
na visheshah asti varnanam
sarvam bhahmam idam jagat
brahmana purvasristam hi
karmabhih varnatam gatam
There is nothing so special
about the hereditary castes. At the beginning, everyone is a
Brahmin. Castes come up later according to
job.
One thousand years before
Mahabharata and Bhagavadgita, Chandogya Upanishad carried the
wonderful story of Satyakama where an illegitimate son of a slave
woman was accepted as a brahmin. Later Satyakama became the principal
hymn writer in Chandogya Upanishad. His disciple, Upakoshal, saw the
famous truth Sky is Love yadeva kham tadeva kam
iti.
GROUND REALITY OF HEREDITARY
CASTE SYSTEM TODAY:
In spite of all scriptural
clarification, Hindus in India cannot get rid of the immovable yoke of
hereditary caste system. It is very important to study the
cause.
The causes of hereditary caste
system appear to be the same as those of racialism all over the
world.
In modern India, democracy is
ruined by caste-oriented vote-banks practiced by the political
parties. Unimaginable violence and cruelty are committed in the name
of caste. Dowry system, that causes bride-burning in many cases,
flourishes in the system of arranged marriage, which is a direct
consequence of hereditary caste system.
I think Inter-caste marriage,
based on love and commitment between the couples, will eliminate the
twin-headed monster of hereditary caste system and dowry system in
India.
With the best
wishes,
Himendra
----- Original Message -----
From: umesh sharma
To: Rajen
Barua ; Ram
Sarangapani
Cc: assam@assamnet.org
Sent: Thursday, March 23, 2006 11:06
AM
Subject: Re: [Assam] HPI, March 20,
2006
Rajen-da,
Even this verse by itself doesnot say that Brahmin is by
birth - it merely states that Brahmins are intellectuals (from head
or brain) - thus does show that intellect is superior to other
things - if you believe that one part of human body is more
important than others. Kshatriya is said to come from arms -
denoting strength -used for fighting -does not say about hereditary
caste system.
On the other hand it speaks of cohesion - in the sense
that all people in any soicety are doing equally important work -
just as parts of a human body - regardless of their social status. I
repeat - no mention of hereditary caste system.
Umesh
Rajen Barua
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
I think it is the
Gita.
I will
check
Rajenda
----- Original Message -----
From: umesh
sharma
To: Rajen Barua ; Ram
Sarangapani
Cc: assam@assamnet.org
Sent: Thursday, March 23, 2006 9:37
AM
Subject: Re: [Assam] HPI, March 20,
2006
I do recall that there is such a verse but I do not
recall seeing it in Geeta or that Krishna said
it.
Umesh
Rajen Barua <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
I will
have to read the verse in detail. I think Krishna states
bothways:
Those who
are born out of my head are the Brahmins
Those who
are born out of my shoulder, are the
Kshatriyas.
Those who
are born out of my stomach are the
Vaishya.
Those who
are born out of my feet are the Sudras.
Can you
check if above is true.
Rajenda
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