What is your own perception A? Share your view of how things happen, how corruption happens. Obviously you don't believe in what I explained. Nor do you accept Amit Varma's or Santanu's. So you must have a different explanation. Tell us about it and we will see if it holds water :-).
>> *** As long as such preaching does not go unchallenged, *** Anyone can write anything, espouse anything, assert anything. But we are free to challenge what we don't think adds up, holds water . And then we can present what we believe to be a better explanation, a better alternative and so forth. So if someone appears or sounds "preachy" , wee are free to call them out, of course hoping we have a good explanation WHY we think they are preachy and are not credible or merely holier than thou but untenably so. That would be different from jumping into every bandwagon that pops up, signing petitions, holding processions and 'gheraos' and what not. Things that thinking people would do. On Apr 22, 2011, at 4:08 PM, Alpana B. Sarangapani wrote: > And why don't you explain how the System compels people to get corrupted? > What s your logic? > >> *** As long as such preaching does not go unchallenged, > > Explain this as well, C'da. > > BTW, I did not dismiss Santanu's analysis, just analyzed it myself. Are you > trying to be a Narod? :) :) > > I've been sent out to pick up some tool for the car. Can anyone believe that? > After having to "work" straight for 12 days without a day off, I am doing > this for the household, but I am good at taking challenges, so here I am > struggling with my glasses/eyesight to use this little keyboard to work. > :) > > > > > Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T > > -----Original Message----- > From: Chan Mahanta <cmaha...@gmail.com> > Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2011 20:45:22 > To: <assam@assamnet.org> > Subject: Re: [Assam] The Rorschach Effect in Indian Politics > > What do you think? > > Why don't you tell us where the fallacy is, as YOU see it :-). > > > > > On Apr 22, 2011, at 2:44 PM, Dilip Deka wrote: > >> There is a fallacy in separating the system from the people completely. It >> is after all the people who make and install the system >> (political/administrative in this case). The system did not suddenly arrive >> from outer space.ALSO The same very people use or abuse the system. >> >> You indicated that the British system works. If I am not mistaken, the >> Indian system takes after the British one. It almost looks like a copy job - >> with the president as a figure head, Rajya Sabha patterned after the House >> of Lords, the IAS like the BCS, a governor in every state as the >> representative from Delhi, similar laws and regulations etc. etc. Why >> doesn't the Indian system work? Is it possible that a system that works in >> Brtain (I am not saying it does) stops working in India because it is abused >> by the people? >> >> =============================================================== >> >> >> From: Chan Mahanta <cmaha...@gmail.com> >> Subject: Re: [Assam] The Rorschach Effect in Indian Politics >> To: "Alpana B. Sarangapani " <absarangap...@hotmail.com> >> Cc: "assam@assamnet.org " <assam@assamnet.org> >> Date: Friday, April 22, 2011, 12:04 PM >> >> >> Riiiight ! >> >> So, I guess there is no escape from it, is there :-)? >> >> The fallacy here Alpana is that you are so stuck on the good people, bad >> people mantra, you cannot >> divorce yourself from the notion that a few or perhaps a lot good folks is >> all you need for salvation. >> >> The fact is that people are mostly the same, all over. Generally, they are >> mostly good. But the rigors >> of survival, selfish instincts, absence of societal and personal ethics and >> other factors push them >> to temptation. If such temptation is not discouraged by say: >> Ethical qualms >> Laws of the land and institutions of state that will punish bad >> behavior and support good behavior >> then the slide down the path of bad behavior becomes perpetuated, like in >> today's India. >> >> Americans or the British or the Germans or the French or the Norwegians or >> the Chinese or the Russians--they all >> are good and bad. But those societies that have succeeded in fostering >> ethical behavior in conjunction with >> an effective system of governance with trustworthy and functioning >> institutions, have by and large been >> able to prevent such wholesale descent into a corrupt state. >> >> So, it is NOT the Kharkhowas' innate badness that has caused its descent >> into what it is mired in now, It is India's >> make-believe democrasy and its dysfunctional state institutions, compounded >> by an absence of knowledge >> about what they ought to be, that is at the root of its profound malaise. >> >> Therefore, even if you get a half dozen saints imported from far off, >> saintly lands to run Assam, never mind AGP+BJP, vs Kongress >> or Akhil + Anna or even ULFA, will make any difference, UNLESS it is coupled >> with a complete overhaul of its failed governmental >> system. That simple. >> >> >> On Apr 22, 2011, at 11:36 AM, Alpana B. Sarangapani wrote: >> >>> But the system is made of the (local) people only. >>> >>> I might be acting like - 'gorur aagot tukari baai, mur jukaari ghah khai' >>> to your argument of just blaming the system, and not taking responsibility >>> of one's own greedy behavior, but I know for sure that It is not written in >>> Indian book of law that taking bribe is mandatory. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Chan Mahanta <cmaha...@gmail.com> >>> Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2011 16:02:58 >>> To: <assam@assamnet.org> >>> Subject: Re: [Assam] The Rorschach Effect in Indian Politics >>> >>> Allow me to butt in here A. >>> >>> No one is questioning the need for personal integrity. Your Bor-deuta is a >>> good example. Question you should be asking >>> is why HE had to QUIT? Where is the institutional support system that >>> should reward good behavior and punish >>> bad? It is THIS absence that breeds more and more behavior. There is no >>> DETERRENCE. >>> >>> >>>> And about the 'I' and 'you', even if it is not specifically written, there >>>> still might be a tendency to preach, like you and I and many of us here >>>> and elsewhere do >>> >>> *** As long as such preaching does not go unchallenged, it is for the good. >>> It makes people pause, think, look deeper into issues, instead of >>> merely jumping onto this bandwagon or that, seeking easy answers and simple >>> fixes. But if we are to dismiss or devalue Santanu's analysis >>> as yet another set of preachings or attempts at self-aggrandisement, then >>> we would be missing the point. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Apr 22, 2011, at 10:31 AM, Alpana B. Sarangapani wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> Good to hear from you, Santanu. Don't see you much these days. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> While i agree with you in principle that if the system of governance is >>>> very good, most things work out fine, i think there are other issues as >>>> well. >>>> >>>> I feel that for a country to function well, it has to have good >>>> governance, regulations, rules on one side and a population that has >>>> principles, not susceptible to corruption, and takes active and healthy >>>> interest in the general well being of the country. >>>> >>>> And about the 'I' and 'you', even if it is not specifically written, there >>>> still might be a tendency to preach, like you and I and many of us here >>>> and elsewhere do. One does not necessarily need to go to Lanka to become >>>> Rabon, you can find Rabon all over the place. >>>> >>>> Do people have to compromise on principles and morality because the system >>>> is so corrupt and put the blame on the system and succumb to taking bribes >>>> and what not? If the answer is yes, what does that tell us about our >>>> society? >>>> >>>> >>>> On a side note, my Bor-Deuta, as a young man, worked as a Supply Inspector >>>> for a couple of months and quit the job in disgust, because of large scale >>>> bribery. He didn't die a materially rich man, but he kept his principles >>>> and morality very high up thoughout his career and life. In those days, he >>>> was not the only one, of course, to do that. >>>> >>>> BTW, I understand how the proverb goes. But it is unfortunate that people >>>> forget that Ravan had high principles. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> From: s...@mail.smu.edu >>>>> To: assam@assamnet.org >>>>> Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2011 14:21:59 +0000 >>>>> Subject: Re: [Assam] The Rorschach Effect in Indian Politics >>>>> >>>>> Nice piece. It is always so easy to view the problem of corruption & >>>>> related ills as one of personal morality; that it happens because the >>>>> people who have discretionary power, particularly politicians, are >>>>> fundamentally "bad" people. If they are replaced by "good" people, the >>>>> outcome will be fundamentally different. It is this view that gets the >>>>> urban middle class so excited about the Hazare-like premises. >>>>> >>>>> I have tried to understand why this seems to be a collective social view, >>>>> though individually almost all of us have the basic intelligence to >>>>> understand the time immemorial adage that "one who goes to Lanka, shall >>>>> become a Ravan". Quite apart from the fact that reforming Lanka is >>>>> nowhere as entertaining or appealing as burning Ravan, it reflects a >>>>> fundamental desire in us to differentiate ourselves - "they " are the bad >>>>> guys so they bring misery, "I" am good, if "I" were there, "I" would >>>>> perform differently; "I" or someone like "I" can do it. By saying this, >>>>> "I" exult my moral superiority. It is so easy to sell this creed to "I". >>>>> "You?", well I am not so sure about "you" :-). >>>>> >>>>> Santanu. >>>>> ________________________________________ >>>>> From: assam-boun...@assamnet.org [assam-boun...@assamnet.org] on behalf >>>>> of Altaf Mazid [altafma...@gmail.com] >>>>> Sent: Friday, April 22, 2011 8:31 AM >>>>> To: A Mailing list for people interested in Assam from around the world >>>>> Subject: [Assam] The Rorschach Effect in Indian Politics >>>>> >>>>> The Rorschach Effect in Indian Politics >>>>> >>>>> By Amit Varma >>>>> >>>>> http://in.news.yahoo.com/blogs/opinions/rorschach-effect-indian-politics-053923332.html >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> assam mailing list >>>>> assam@assamnet.org >>>>> http://assamnet.org/mailman/listinfo/assam_assamnet.org >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> assam mailing list >>>>> assam@assamnet.org >>>>> http://assamnet.org/mailman/listinfo/assam_assamnet.org >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> assam mailing list >>>> assam@assamnet.org >>>> http://assamnet.org/mailman/listinfo/assam_assamnet.org >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> assam mailing list >>> assam@assamnet.org >>> http://assamnet.org/mailman/listinfo/assam_assamnet.org >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> assam mailing list >> assam@assamnet.org >> http://assamnet.org/mailman/listinfo/assam_assamnet.org >> _______________________________________________ >> assam mailing list >> assam@assamnet.org >> http://assamnet.org/mailman/listinfo/assam_assamnet.org > > > _______________________________________________ > assam mailing list > assam@assamnet.org > http://assamnet.org/mailman/listinfo/assam_assamnet.org _______________________________________________ assam mailing list assam@assamnet.org http://assamnet.org/mailman/listinfo/assam_assamnet.org
