We are speaking from the same - but in a different way: I'm speaking from the real breaking point at 250 Hz*m and you from the "limit point" for the use, which is of course lower.
Ciao Am 08.04.2017 um 14:52 schrieb Mimmo <mperu...@aquilacorde.com>: > ..thanks Andreas > > ..actually the working index of the majority od surviving and hoping > not modified lutes and even 5 course guitars whose standard pitch is > more or less can be know ( French pitch , German , Venetian pitch) > raging from 220 till 235 Hz/mt that is the poit were a gut top string > start to stop to follow the stress /strain proportion. After this limit > the string go ahead to breack (this happen two sentitone far, more or > less. Depend by the string) > > After that point a gut string do not stretch furthermore while the > frequency start to increase in a very fast way even for few turn of the > peg (daniello bartoli 1670 ca: a gut string breack when it cannot > stretch furthermore ) > > A working index of 250 is out of any possibility. There is another > explanation that at present I do not have concerning the pitch > standard > > Ciao > > Mimmo > > Il giorno 08 apr 2017, alle ore 14:28, Andreas Schlegel > <[1]lute.cor...@sunrise.ch> ha scritto: > > Dear Mimmo, > > First of all: > > Strings for bowed instruments and strings for plucked instruments are > more or less the same in fabrication - but not the same in the concrete > musical use, as you know. So it's clear to me that there's a difference > between the introduction of new string types for the two categories of > sound production. > > We have an other thing to think about (I spoke in Bremen on that topic, > too): > > The string length of old instruments is not so "normalised" than we > have it today! The old ones had instruments from 65.5 up to 80 - and > for the Deutsche Theorbe (with tuning d' a d f A G ...) very close to > the breaking point for a'=415 Hz and 250 Hz*m at 85.5 cm (Venere / > Schelle Leipzig 3357) or 88 cm (Schelle 1728 Nürnberg MIR 574). > > In the 1720ies we have many 13-course lutes with bass rider (f.ex. > Edlinger) with 75-78 cm. (By the way: They were tuned in which pitch??? > As close as possible to the breaking point [will be around e'/eb']? > Lower?) > > Lutes with swan neck up from c.1735 have again shorter string lengths. > > My simplification is at moment: > > The swan neck (and the long 13-course lutes with bass rider) was an > answer to the not completely satisfying use of overwound strings (which > were used for the lowest basses only!) and the relatio of 3:4 (around a > fourth) between petit jeu and grand jeu allowed to go back to a > stringing in entirely the same material (the ambitus for the tones was > f'-A [32 halftones] but the ambitus for the string material was reduced > with the swan neck to f'-D [27 halftones]). We have to see that the > octaves on swan neck lutes are also more brilliant than on a bass rider > system. > > You know that I have my Edlinger stringed with your open wound strings > - and they work really well. But the main problem is the break from > plain gut to overwound strings. My stringing with overwound strings > from the 6th course down seems to be not historically correct - at > least for the first decades (but is much better than a mix). I recorded > the Rust and Hagen sonatas with violin with this strings - and the > sound is really convincing. > > There's one single instrument which is - in my opinion - converted for > the use of overwound bass strings: the Venere / Schelle Leipzig 3357 > which has no octaves in the grand jeu and which was a normal tiorba, > but shortened in 1723/26. Perhaps the airplanes were invented in those > times and it was more practical to have a smaller tiorba... ;-) > > All the best, > > Andreas > > Am 08.04.2017 um 13:46 schrieb Mimmo Peruffo > <[2]mperu...@aquilacorde.com>: > > Thanks Andreas. I have to know that > Ah, one more thing in matter of the 13 course swan neck lute: > There are some paintings were it is possible to 'see' white basses > on the extended neck. Said that,. there is a well detaileed painting > (David van Edward source) were the long diapasons are thick and in a > grey colour. what to think? > One thing intrigue me: if the long basses were actually made of pure > gut (and the risk is to have no advantage in the performances on a > 13 course lute with the rider strung with wound strings), WHY the > scale was limited to 95 cms more or less only? I would reach 120 cm > almost just to still have the octaves to the basses and better > performances over the wound strings of the 13 course lutewith > rider. > heck. > Mimmo > -----Messaggio originale----- From: Andreas Schlegel > Sent: Saturday, April 8, 2017 12:04 PM > To: Mimmo Peruffo > Cc: lute list ; Baroque Lute List > Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Kupetzky image > Dear Mimmo, > > You Andreas discovered the Lexicon of 1715 that actually was the > fist german source discovered. > > I think it was Michael Treder who published first this source in his > "Ein irdisches Vergnügen für Barocklaute" (I received an early > version in 2010). Perhaps Tim Crawford knew the Lexikon earlier, but > who knows? It was at least a topic in 2012 in Bemen at the Bach > symposium and I already knew the citation by Michael and was > surprised that Tim mentioned it, too, in his lecture. > Per Kjetil Farstad doen't mentioned in his "Lautenistinnen in > Deutschland im 18. Jahrhundert" from 2011. > All the best, > Andreas > To get on or off this list see list information at > [3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > Andreas Schlegel > Eckstr. 6 > CH-5737 Menziken > +41 (0)62 771 47 07 > [4]lute.cor...@sunrise.ch > > -- > > References > > 1. mailto:lute.cor...@sunrise.ch > 2. mailto:mperu...@aquilacorde.com > 3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > 4. mailto:lute.cor...@sunrise.ch > Andreas Schlegel Eckstr. 6 CH-5737 Menziken +41 (0)62 771 47 07 lute.cor...@sunrise.ch --
