The BMW UUC Digest Volume 2 : Issue 562 : "text" Format Messages in this Issue: Re: e36 brake pads - track cars Re: e36 brake pads - track cars Re: e36 spring rates - track cars Re: e36 spring rates - track cars Re: e36 spring rates - track cars Re: e36 spring rates - track cars Re: e36 spring rates - track cars Re: e36 spring rates - track cars Re: e36 spring rates - track cars <WOB, OT> test send Re: e36 spring rates - track cars Re: e36 spring rates - track cars Re: My 535 for sale on Ebay
---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 15:12:37 -0800 (PST) From: Carlos Lopez <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Clarence <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, bmwuucdigest@uucdigest.com Subject: Re: e36 brake pads - track cars Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> --- Clarence <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >I have heard numerous times that the HT-10 was designed for cars >heavier than the E30. Excuse my ignorance (nah, who cares) but what >does this mean? I think it may be so that enough heat is generated for them to work well. A lot of racers that I see using these sometimes close up their brake ducts even in the summer months. I think I remember James Clay saying that unless it's 90 deg F outside you probably don't need full ducting. I ran them in my E30 M3 and loved them. I ran them at Gingerman once w/o ducting and that was the only time I felt fade. Gingerman is extremely hard on brakes. At PRI (prof. racing ind.) show, we stopped by the Hawk booth and they said they have some new pad that's supposedly even better than the HT-10 I forget the name/model because it's not an HT-whatever type of name. Something new. Carlos. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 18:15:56 -0500 From: "Dinah DeRoller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Clarence" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, <bmwuucdigest@uucdigest.com> Subject: Re: e36 brake pads - track cars Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Clarence, My comment as well is based on *what I had heard*. Several people had said that on E30s they use the HT10s on the front, and Blues on the back. I have also heard some people with E30s use HT10s all around. I *might* have seen this qualification on the Hawk website, or years ago on the E36M3 digest. Since the E36 weighs more than the E30 in typical configurations, the HT10's may be designed to work under higher operating temps, or the pedal feel might not be optimal in lighter cars (theorizing.....). Dinah '97 E36 M3, many mods '98 F355 Challenge ----- Original Message ----- From: Clarence To: bmwuucdigest@uucdigest.com Sent: Thursday, February 24, 2005 6:04 PM Subject: Re: [UUC] e36 brake pads - track cars I have heard numerous times that the HT-10 was designed for cars heavier than the E30. Excuse my ignorance (nah, who cares) but what does this mean? I once had HT-10s on my E30 and except for the pads cracking in the middle, I loved them. My instructor was very impressed. It was the literal dropping an anchor. Unfortunately the pads I had cracked in the middle. The vendor replaced them after the first event, but after the second event (again cracking) the vendor replaced them w/Hawk Blues. The Blues are OK, but do not compare w/the stopping power of the HT-10s. I would like to go back to them, but again, the comment is always 'they're designed for heavier cars.' Maybe I should just put a coupla pounds in the trunk and run 'em. Clarence West Bend, WI Dinah DeRoller wrote: > Chet, > > Pedal feel is near that with the PF90s (which I loved).....initial bite the > same (mine always seem a bit soft, initially). They haul the car down very > quickly. My friend Vince Leo (races an E36 325) used them and they lasted > forever. They are designed for heavier cars than the E30. FYI, the PF97's > will destroy paint, wheels, anything if they get sparks on it when > cold.....not to be driven on the street (this, and the performance factor, > is why I won't use them) > > > Dinah > > ----- Original Message ----- From: chet.dawes > To: Dinah DeRoller > Sent: Thursday, February 24, 2005 2:30 PM > Subject: RE: [UUC] e36 brake pads - track cars > > > Dinah, > Thanks for the feedback! I'll definitely consider the HT-10s. How's the > pedal feel and initial bite with these? > Cheers, > Chet Dawes > > > > > From: Dinah DeRoller [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Thursday, February 24, 2005 1:17 PM > To: Dawes, Chet ; bmwuucdigest@uucdigest.com > Subject: Re: [UUC] e36 brake pads - track cars > > Chet, > > I use Hawk HT10s on my M3 - heavily suspension modified. They last forever > and stop well. Hated the PF 97s after they switched the compound from the PF > 90s. > > Dinah > '97 M3, many mods > '98 F355 Challenge > ----- Original Message ----- From: chet.dawes > To: bmwuucdigest@uucdigest.com > Sent: Thursday, February 24, 2005 1:02 PM > Subject: [UUC] e36 brake pads - track cars > > > All, > Okay, same car, different quandary: > Track pads! Any advice would be appreciated. I'll swap pads for normal > street use, so these will be to/from and on track use only. Application > is an e36 M3 with stock-like power but heavy suspension mods. Brake > ducting is currently stock, but may be changed as required. > > Hawk Blues: > I've used Hawk Blues on a previous BMW and while I loved the feel, bite, > cost, etc. the dust was outrageous and they eat rotors at a pretty > healthy rate. After a typical 2 day DE (most was in the rain) the > clean-up of the brake dust was very difficult. I'm not afraid of brake > dust and I've cleaned my share of race wheels, etc. but I thought I was > going to ruin the finish on my wheels it was stuck so bad! I think this > had a lot to do with the rain and the subsequent street driving from > 200+ miles to/from the track to my home, but I cleaned them the > following day. I struggled to remove the dust from the paint on the > car, wheels, etc. The car was lighter (supercharged and otherwise > modified 318ti) with significantly smaller brakes than the M3 but a > similar speed potential to a stock M3. > > PFC 97: > I've not used these, but feedback I've heard includes poor initial bite, > very hard pedal (high effort for a given Mu), wear like iron, low dust, > rotor friendly and they are expensive. > > PFC 01: > Again, no personal experience, but feedback indicates better bite and > pedal feel than the 97's, also rather expensive. > > Cool Willy: > Turner's web site raves about them, otherwise I've not heard any > feedback. Cost seems pretty reasonable too. > > Pagid Orange: > No direct experience, but feedback includes poor performance unless > fully hot, cool use (such as too/from the track?) can result in horrible > pad transfer layer deposition resulting in brake shudder, etc. > > Pagid RS-14: > Second hand experience with these indicates low life expectancy, > potential to crumble and fall apart after a 3 hour enduro, etc. > > EBC: > Everything I've heard indicates STAY AWAY..... > > Any others I should consider or not consider? Please share your > experience and recommendations. > > Thanks! > Chet Dawes Search the ARCHIVES:http://www.mail-archive.com/bmwuucdigest@uucdigest.com __________________________________________________________________________ In memory of Michel Potheau - friend, enthusiast, founder of the BMW CCA. UUC Motorwerks - BMW Performance Fine-tuning and home of the Ultimate Short Shifter - accept no substitutes! 908-874-9092 . http://www.uucmotorwerks.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 15:25:16 -0800 (PST) From: Carlos Lopez <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "chet.dawes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, bmwuucdigest@uucdigest.com Subject: Re: e36 spring rates - track cars Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> --- "chet.dawes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >I'd classify my desired ride/handling character of the car as a 'wild >street' to 'moderate track' set-up. The car does not ride on a >trailer >to events; I drive it there and for spirited drives on the back >roads. I want the track handling to be as well balanced as possible >and plan to change anti-roll bars as well to help fine tune the >balance. No big power gains are to be had on my budget right now, so >stock-like power is what I'll have to deal with. > > Race car, DE car and street car data is all welcome!!! Chet I don't have any personal experience yet but an E36 race car is in my future. :-) I have however poked around the paddock checking out people's cars for the last few years. Here are a few of what I've seen: Ground Control: Advanced student/instructor cars. 450f, 500r. Usually these are combined with cars that have single or double adjustable Konis, driven to and from events but not daily drivers. World Challenge (when they were on Toyo T1S street tires): Ranges were from 500f, 500r to 750f, 750r. I saw a lot of combinations in between. Example the racecar I'm looking at which ran WC at some point has 600f, 700r w/Gruppe N Bilsteins. Most WC cars from at least the last couple of seasons run triple adjustable remote reservoir Motons though ($5-$6K dampers in other words). ITS cars: Crazy spring rates. 900, 950, 1000f, 1100-1200r, or in that range, a lot of these cars run w/o rear sway bars. Most of the other cars run some sort of aftermarket sway bars, take your pick but I've noticed the most popular ones are Racing Dynamics, Eibach, and the UUC ones. WC cars at least from what I saw ran custom sway bars, most with blades for adjustment (no holes) and they were huge! and I mean huge nothing out in the aftermarket compares, at least when they ran street tires. All those cars I was poking around in are now running top 10 or better so I doubt they'll let me anywhere near their paddock spaces again. :-) Carlos. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - now with 250MB free storage. Learn more. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 15:48:11 -0800 From: Mark Dadgar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: bmwuucdigest@uucdigest.com Subject: Re: e36 spring rates - track cars Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> On Feb 24, 2005, at 3:25 PM, Carlos Lopez wrote: > World Challenge (when they were on Toyo T1S street tires): > Ranges were from 500f, 500r to 750f, 750r. I saw a lot of combinations > in between. Example the racecar I'm looking at which ran WC at some > point has 600f, 700r w/Gruppe N Bilsteins. Most WC cars from at least > the last couple of seasons run triple adjustable remote reservoir > Motons though ($5-$6K dampers in other words). Unfortunately, these numbers are kind of meaningless without knowing what sway bars are paired with them. > ITS cars: Crazy spring rates. 900, 950, 1000f, 1100-1200r, or in that > range, a lot of these cars run w/o rear sway bars. See above. I'm running in the 800f/1000r range with Ground Control sway bars. My car is STIFF. - Mark, who drools over Motons ----- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Check out my JustRacing Home Page at: http://www.justracing.com/homepage/mdadgar ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 17:52:48 -0800 (PST) From: Carlos Lopez <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Mark Dadgar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, bmwuucdigest@uucdigest.com Subject: Re: e36 spring rates - track cars Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> --- Mark Dadgar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Unfortunately, these numbers are kind of meaningless without knowing > what sway bars are paired with them. Meaningless to whom? Chet who's curious about spring rates people are using or to a WC team that lurks in the UUC digest to find out secret setups that other teams ran 2 years ago? ;-) I did say most teams had custom sway bars didn't I? And they ran street tires. Turner sells their used stuff on their website or else the stuff they tried and didn't like. Some of their old sway bars I've seen pop up on their site except I wasn't interested then. I am now and it's too late. :-( I didn't take pics of the Tecmark cars or take calipers to their sway bars, figured it wasn't cool since they were letting me lay under their cars checking them out and turn their springs around to check spring rates. :-) > > ITS cars: Crazy spring rates. 900, 950, 1000f, 1100-1200r, or in > that > > range, a lot of these cars run w/o rear sway bars. > > See above. Well, doi, if you're only running a front sway bar there are only so many of them out there and they're within 1 or 2mm of each other. > I'm running in the 800f/1000r range with Ground Control sway bars. > My car is STIFF. You may want to try a no rear sway bar setup, you're probably almost there with your rear spring rates, then again your front sway bar is probably too big for that. :-) > - Mark, who drools over Motons Me too but I can buy a whole E36 for what they cost, I'll just be content with the ADs and the GrpN Bilsteins which ever ones I keep. Carlos. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 18:10:59 -0800 From: Mark Dadgar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: UUC Digest <bmwuucdigest@uucdigest.com> Subject: Re: e36 spring rates - track cars Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >> Unfortunately, these numbers are kind of meaningless without knowing >> what sway bars are paired with them. > > Meaningless to whom? Chet who's curious about spring rates people are > using or to a WC team that lurks in the UUC digest to find out secret > setups that other teams ran 2 years ago? ;-) :) My point was only that you can't compare apples to apples regarding spring rates if you don't know what the sway bars are. So one guy could have 500 lb springs and a stiff bar (huh huh, he said stiff) and the second guy could have 600 lb springs and no bar and the wheel rate could be the same. > I did say most teams had custom sway bars didn't I? And they ran > street tires. Turner sells their used stuff on their website or else > the stuff they tried and didn't like. Some of their old sway bars I've > seen pop up on their site except I wasn't interested then. I am now > and it's too late. :-( I know the feeling! >> I'm running in the 800f/1000r range with Ground Control sway bars. >> My car is STIFF. > > You may want to try a no rear sway bar setup, you're probably almost > there with your rear spring rates, then again your front sway bar is > probably too big for that. :-) I did try it with no rear bar (and a stock front bar) - that was the original config when I built the car. It just didn't work (and was cursed with a lack of adjustability to match adverse conditions). >> - Mark, who drools over Motons > > Me too but I can buy a whole E36 for what they cost, I'll just be > content with the ADs and the GrpN Bilsteins which ever ones I keep. I've got the AD's and I like them quite a bit. But I'd go to Moton ClubSports (which are a REALLY good deal) in heartbeat if they were legal in Prepared. - Mark ----- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Check out my JustRacing Home Page at: http://www.justracing.com/homepage/mdadgar ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 19:02:36 -0800 (PST) From: Carlos Lopez <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Mark Dadgar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, UUC Digest <bmwuucdigest@uucdigest.com> Subject: Re: e36 spring rates - track cars Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> --- Mark Dadgar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >I've got the AD's and I like them quite a bit. But I'd go to Moton >ClubSports (which are a REALLY good deal) in heartbeat if they were >legal in Prepared. They are legal for one more year (thru 2005). If the clubsports are the top dawg ones then I've heard they're worth it, if they're a lesser one then I heard not to waste your money on them. Carlos. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 19:05:14 -0800 From: Mark Dadgar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: UUC Digest <bmwuucdigest@uucdigest.com> Subject: Re: e36 spring rates - track cars Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> On Feb 24, 2005, at 7:02 PM, Carlos Lopez wrote: >> I've got the AD's and I like them quite a bit. But I'd go to Moton >> ClubSports (which are a REALLY good deal) in heartbeat if they were >> legal in Prepared. > > They are legal for one more year (thru 2005). That's a whole other piece of bitterness. They arbitrarily extended the expiration of remote-reservoir shocks by a year some time in 2004 (the were supposed to expire end of 2004). Arghh. > If the clubsports are > the top dawg ones then I've heard they're worth it, if they're a lesser > one then I heard not to waste your money on them. I've driven some 911's equipped with the Moton ClubSports. They are spectacular. Basically they are full-blown Moton shocks, just with steel components instead of aluminum. - Mark ----- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Check out my JustRacing Home Page at: http://www.justracing.com/homepage/mdadgar ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 19:35:56 -0500 From: "Gary Derian" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <bmwuucdigest@uucdigest.com> Subject: Re: e36 spring rates - track cars Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> At those rates, the tire flex is half the suspension travel. Gary Derian > > ITS cars: Crazy spring rates. 900, 950, 1000f, 1100-1200r, or in that > range, a lot of these cars run w/o rear sway bars. > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 17:19:59 -0800 (PST) From: Brian Ruiz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: UUC Digest <bmwuucdigest@uucdigest.com> Subject: <WOB, OT> test send Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> TESTING. Brian __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 19:42:31 -0600 From: Fernando Mujica <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: bmwuucdigest@uucdigest.com Subject: Re: e36 spring rates - track cars Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Chet, I remember I did survey of spring rates a while back when I was trying to decide on my setup. I settled with 400/500 f/r. This is with the GC track school kit + GC CCPs + SA Konis. Stock sways. At the track/autox, I run about -3 and -2.5 degrees of camber front and rear, respectively. This should be also part of your equation. I autox about 9 times a year and do 2-3 DEs. My goals for balance were similar to yours. Balance is pretty good, with a bit of understeer that you can easily balance with your right foot and turn it power oversteer if you over do it :) . After I gained confidence with the setup I felt I could dial out some of the understeer. So, I just ordered 550 springs for the rear. I haven't try them yet. All in all, I would recommend a ratio of 4/5 f/r to start with. Regarding motion ratio, I recently asked this question in another list. I was told close to 1:1 in front and 1:1.8 in rear, or about .55. Good luck, Fernando On Feb 24, 2005, at 5:16 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > Subject: e36 spring rates - track cars > Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > All, > I'm doing some 'initial' suspension set-up on a '95 M3. This car was > bone stock when I acquired it but is in track car development to be > deployed May 12th (Mid-Ohio DE). I'd like to call on the collective > wisdom and experience of the group for a little empirical data on > suspension set-up: > > For your M3, or other e36 coupe, what are your front and rear spring > rates? How about corner weight data? Has anyone else measured the > front and/or rear spring to wheel motion ratios? How do you think the > car feels (balanced, understeer, oversteer)? > > Here is what I have so far for my OE springs as measured: > Front = 97 lb/in, 13.5" free length > Rear = 295 lb/in, 9.25" free length > > Test results indicate a very linear rate both front and rear despite > the > bee-hive taper wire shape of the rear spring. Looks can be deceptive > as > the combination of the tapered wire and changing spring diameter result > in a very linear spring rate. > > Front motion ratio has not been measured by me yet; however, I have a > few data points from others that suggest an approximate motion ratio of > 0.80 (spring/wheel displacement). > > Rear motion ratio I've measured and compare/agree with other > measurements to arrive with a value of 0.64. > > I'd classify my desired ride/handling character of the car as a 'wild > street' to 'moderate track' set-up. The car does not ride on a trailer > to events; I drive it there and for spirited drives on the back roads. > I want the track handling to be as well balanced as possible and plan > to > change anti-roll bars as well to help fine tune the balance. No big > power gains are to be had on my budget right now, so stock-like power > is > what I'll have to deal with. > > Race car, DE car and street car data is all welcome!!! > > Please when you get a chance send me any data you might have and > include > any trials and tribulations you may have gone through to get to the > set-up you have today. If you have changed sway bars, please note. > > Thanks! > Chet Dawes ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 19:39:59 -0500 From: "Gary Derian" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <bmwuucdigest@uucdigest.com> Subject: Re: e36 spring rates - track cars Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> You will note that the street springs are much stiffer in the rear than the front. Even when converted to wheel rate (motion ratio^2) the rear rate will be higher than the front. This is an important feature for a good ride. The race guys run much stiffer in the front. This is bad for ride. Another consideration is the stock shock mounts are useless when the shock rates get stiff, as they must when going to very stiff springs. Gary Derian > > All, > I'm doing some 'initial' suspension set-up on a '95 M3. This car was > bone stock when I acquired it but is in track car development to be > deployed May 12th (Mid-Ohio DE). I'd like to call on the collective > wisdom and experience of the group for a little empirical data on > suspension set-up: > > For your M3, or other e36 coupe, what are your front and rear spring > rates? How about corner weight data? Has anyone else measured the > front and/or rear spring to wheel motion ratios? How do you think the > car feels (balanced, understeer, oversteer)? > > Here is what I have so far for my OE springs as measured: > Front = 97 lb/in, 13.5" free length > Rear = 295 lb/in, 9.25" free length > > Test results indicate a very linear rate both front and rear despite the > bee-hive taper wire shape of the rear spring. Looks can be deceptive as > the combination of the tapered wire and changing spring diameter result > in a very linear spring rate. > > Front motion ratio has not been measured by me yet; however, I have a > few data points from others that suggest an approximate motion ratio of > 0.80 (spring/wheel displacement). > > Rear motion ratio I've measured and compare/agree with other > measurements to arrive with a value of 0.64. > > I'd classify my desired ride/handling character of the car as a 'wild > street' to 'moderate track' set-up. The car does not ride on a trailer > to events; I drive it there and for spirited drives on the back roads. > I want the track handling to be as well balanced as possible and plan to > change anti-roll bars as well to help fine tune the balance. No big > power gains are to be had on my budget right now, so stock-like power is > what I'll have to deal with. > > Race car, DE car and street car data is all welcome!!! > > Please when you get a chance send me any data you might have and include > any trials and tribulations you may have gone through to get to the > set-up you have today. If you have changed sway bars, please note. > > Thanks! > Chet Dawes > > > **************************************************************************************** > > Note: The information contained in this message may be privileged and > confidential and thus protected from disclosure. If the reader of this > message is not the intended recipient, or an employee or agent responsible > for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby > notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this > communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this > communication in error, please notify us immediately by replying to the > message and deleting it from your computer. Thank you. > > **************************************************************************************** > > Search the ARCHIVES:http://www.mail-archive.com/bmwuucdigest@uucdigest.com > > > __________________________________________________________________________ > In memory of Michel Potheau - friend, enthusiast, founder of the BMW CCA. > > UUC Motorwerks - BMW Performance Fine-tuning and home of the Ultimate > Short Shifter - accept no substitutes! > 908-874-9092 . http://www.uucmotorwerks.com > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 18:50:15 -0800 (PST) From: Jonathan Brush <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: bmwuucdigest@uucdigest.com Subject: Re: My 535 for sale on Ebay Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Mike, your car looks great. Like I said before on the garage list, I am a big fan of the E34 535i having a '92 myself with a mere 110K miles. Can I have your wheels....?<g> Jon Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 07:44:48 -0800 From: Michael Holbrook <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Regrettably, I am selling my 535. I offered it around to a couple of the other newsgroups I'm on but I guess everyone is lusting after the "real M3". Anyway, here is the link to the auction and a lot of info on what is new on the car. Probably be easier to say what is old! http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=4529927145&rd=1&sspagename=STRK%3AMESE%3AIT Item number: 4529927145 We are moving to Idaho and I have 4 cars right now. I'd like to cut it down to 2. Anyone interested in a great 1983 300TD (turbodiesel wagon). Mike Holbrook Spring Valley, CA __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Find what you need with new enhanced search. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 ------------------------------ End of [bmwuucdigest] digest(13 messages) **********
