Hi Terje, *>> (130 different action tags)*
Do any of your products intelligently and automatically tag the type of positional (or cube action) problems? Thanks, Wayne -- Sent from my Android phone On Wed, 29 Jan 2020, 5:00 pm , <bug-gnubg-requ...@gnu.org> wrote: > Send Bug-gnubg mailing list submissions to > bug-gnubg@gnu.org > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/bug-gnubg > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > bug-gnubg-requ...@gnu.org > > You can reach the person managing the list at > bug-gnubg-ow...@gnu.org > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of Bug-gnubg digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: current development (Terje Pedersen) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2020 14:59:30 +0100 > From: Terje Pedersen <terj...@gmail.com> > To: pviau <pierre.v...@esa.int> > Cc: Sarah Payne <sarahhpa...@outlook.com>, Mary Hickey > <thehic...@hotmail.com>, "bug-gnubg@gnu.org" <bug-gnubg@gnu.org>, > "Timothy Y. Chow" <tc...@math.princeton.edu>, Michael Petch > <mpe...@gnubg.org>, Chris Yep <ch...@columbusbg.org>, Øystein > Schønning-Johansen <oyste...@gmail.com> > Subject: Re: current development > Message-ID: > <CAJGAYCw33TVbtW1WGU9dDOaLggsUczWf7ZJ_rU2wxUxTL= > v...@mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" > > Hi! > > Backgammon Studio has an option for a private database where you can > add your own matches which you can grow over time and do all kinds of > things with. This server requires XG to analyze matches before you can > upload them. Search through all positions from all your matches where > you made a -0.100 or bigger 'hit or not' error (130 different action > tags) in combination with a myriad of other search options. I made > https://www.backgammonstudio.com/about/ some time ago showing some of > what the server can do. > > Heroes does away with this and automatically adds your errors to your > private database after the match is over. It uses gnu bg analysed > moves. For most players I think gnu bg is more than strong enough to > point out your errors and help you improve your game. > > Yes offline would be sweet but I don't think it will work for any > reasonable revenue generation (I quit my day job some years ago). > > The future is online! :-) > > Best regards, > TP > > On Wed, Jan 29, 2020 at 11:31 AM pviau <pierre.v...@esa.int> wrote: > > > > Just 2 more cents: Backgammon Studio is great, but it’s not just the > quizz aspect I was advocating as a feature for a future “attractive gnubg”, > it’s having your own position database to evolve and study. This apparently > is not possible in Studio, although I may have missed it. > > > > Sure rehearsing generic databases (say openings and replies) is great, > but maintaining and studying your own set of reference positions is > invaluable. > > > > And I’ll say again: I wish we could rehearse without any internet > connection (plane ride, or whatever reason for not being online). > > > > Cheers, > > Pierre > > _____ > > > > On 29 Jan 2020, at 10:28, Sarah Payne <sarahhpa...@outlook.com> wrote: > > > > Hi Joseph. Before responding to your last let me repeat that I don’t > have anything like the skill or experience necessary to contribute real > expertise here, only enthusiasm for the game & a great deal of admiration > for the gnubg project, so please make allowances for that. But re your > query about analysis of gnu with xg: could this be the next step for > planning an update / new release? > > > > For sure, I would expect gnu still to have some playing strengths > against xg. That’s what is so impressive: how it’s still as strong as it is > with no new recent versions. Let’s not forget we’re only comparing it to > what’s currently considered to be the world’s best. > > > > Intuitively? I think gnu still has something xg doesn’t, ‘a different > animal’ is not a criticism per se. But as you point out, intuition is > nothing. Also it doesn’t seem necessary to wait another year for the new > version of xg. This kind of comparative / competitive development will > always be ongoing / open-ended. > > > > > > > > Sent from Mail for Windows 10 > > > > ________________________________ > > From: Joseph Heled <jhe...@gmail.com> > > Sent: Monday, January 27, 2020 9:23:36 PM > > To: Mary Hickey <thehic...@hotmail.com> > > Cc: Sarah Payne <sarahhpa...@outlook.com>; pviau <pierre.v...@esa.int>; > Timothy Y. Chow <tc...@math.princeton.edu>; Michael Petch < > mpe...@gnubg.org>; Øystein Schønning-Johansen <oyste...@gmail.com>; Chris > Yep <ch...@columbusbg.org> > > Subject: Re: current development > > > > Sounds like a good idea, but why bother with BOTS? just play against the > current GNU version and analyze with XG. Perhaps this has already been done > and just needs publicizing? > > > > -Joseph > > > > > > On Tue, 28 Jan 2020 at 10:04, Mary Hickey <thehic...@hotmail.com> wrote: > > > > Hi Joseph, > > > > I was referring more to the interface than the playing strength, but you > are right that the general perception is that XG is the gold standard > regarding playing as well as onscreen viewing and printing. Maybe that > perception needs to be addressed, though since a new version of XG is > rumored to be coming out soon, it might be better to wait and compare GNU > to that instead. > > > > One way to produce some data, which isn't exactly the same as evidence, > is have a bunch of us play vs. whatever bot is considered to be the best > representation of GNU at the various servers, then chuck the matches > through XG at a comparable level, say 3-ply rather than world class. Has > this already been done? And if this idea makes any sense, which bot at FIBS > and also at Backgammon Studio best represents the current GNU? And what > level of XG analysis is to be considered comparable? > > > > After we find where the bots differ, we can roll the positions out and > see which gets the nod. I'd trust either bot to roll them out well on good > settings. > > > > I like this method because it's not difficult either to understand or to > do. It won't detect all the flaws in either program, because rarer > positions aren't as likely to be seen even in a large number of matches > (...duh...that's why they're rare LOL) but we might learn something anyway. > > > > Mary > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > From: Joseph Heled <jhe...@gmail.com> > > Sent: Monday, January 27, 2020 3:24 PM > > To: Mary Hickey <thehic...@hotmail.com> > > Cc: Sarah Payne <sarahhpa...@outlook.com>; pviau <pierre.v...@esa.int>; > Timothy Y. Chow <tc...@math.princeton.edu>; Michael Petch < > mpe...@gnubg.org>; Øystein Schønning-Johansen <oyste...@gmail.com> > > Subject: Re: current development > > > > I am very happy to see (reasonably priced) for-pay services for BG > players. It means the game is still alive, which is far more important than > any one BOT, free or not. > > > > But perceptions vs. reality is one of the issues we are talking about, > right? would you be able to put something, based on your experience, that > will show that XG and GNU-BG are not that different in terms of playing > strength, or "prove us wrong" by showing why XG is superior? > > > > -Joseph > > > > > > On Tue, 28 Jan 2020 at 08:19, Mary Hickey <thehic...@hotmail.com> wrote: > > > > Hi Joseph, > > > > It doesn't have to be the end, but from the posts I'm reading, it > appears many programming person-hours will need to be directed just toward > catching up with XG and other tools now available elsewhere. For example, > Pierre talks about quizzes, but you can take quizzes all day and night at > backgammonstudio.com, play vs. other people, yak at the forum and also > study an extensive library of matches for $24 a year. > > > > But since GNU is the bot that follows you in consultation matches there, > and also is the engine running the FIBS-bots if memory serves, it has some > immortality, don't you think? > > > > Mary > > > > ________________________________ > > From: Joseph Heled <jhe...@gmail.com> > > Sent: Monday, January 27, 2020 2:03 PM > > To: Mary Hickey <thehic...@hotmail.com> > > Cc: Sarah Payne <sarahhpa...@outlook.com>; pviau <pierre.v...@esa.int>; > Timothy Y. Chow <tc...@math.princeton.edu>; Michael Petch < > mpe...@gnubg.org>; bug-gnubg@gnu.org <bug-gnubg@gnu.org>; Øystein > Schønning-Johansen <oyste...@gmail.com> > > Subject: Re: current development > > > > Nice obituary, Mary :) > > > > -Joseph > > > > > > On Mon, 27 Jan 2020 at 12:38, Mary Hickey <thehic...@hotmail.com> wrote: > > > > To the entire GNU-bg Community, > > > > I remain a GNU fan even though I'm One of Those People who stopped using > it once XG established itself as the go-to backgammon bot. And having read > this email exchange, I'm shouting out a huge "THANK YOU!" to this community > for its contribution to the game, and its example of co-operation, trust > and mutual respect among programmers from all over the world. > > > > I'm not a coder, but remember helping test the GNU-bots at FIBS and > providing feedback regarding their practical play on FIBS to the > developers. I appreciate the GNU community's generosity in permitting > GNU-engined bots to play on any servers that want them. > > > > Wherever this project goes from here, the co-operation and always > respectful communications among the members of this community shine > brightly in a world that needs more of those qualities. > > > > Sincerely yours, > > > > Mary Hickey > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > From: Bug-gnubg <bug-gnubg-bounces+thehick64=hotmail....@gnu.org> on > behalf of Sarah Payne <sarahhpa...@outlook.com> > > Sent: Saturday, January 25, 2020 10:18 AM > > To: pviau <pierre.v...@esa.int> > > Cc: bug-gnubg@gnu.org <bug-gnubg@gnu.org>; Øystein Schønning-Johansen < > oyste...@gmail.com> > > Subject: RE: current development > > > > Hi Pviau, re position databases I’m guessing this is just the kind of > feedback needed, particularly coming from someone familiar with xg’s > potential. It would be a huge bonus to have a feature like this to launch a > new version & get gnubg back on the radar of serious players. > > > > > > > > But I’d suggest just one new feature / usp of this kind (& err towards > keeping it simple). Develop neural nets / cross platform compatibility then > get a new version out there soon as, before people forget how good the > project is. > > > > > > > > Completely agree re offline functionality. Also re UI: flat, simple, > clean. Very little required there. > > > > > > > > > > > > Sent from Mail for Windows 10 > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > From: pviau <pierre.v...@esa.int> > > Sent: Saturday, January 25, 2020 11:04:43 AM > > To: Sarah Payne <sarahhpa...@outlook.com> > > Cc: Øystein Schønning-Johansen <oyste...@gmail.com>; bug-gnubg@gnu.org < > bug-gnubg@gnu.org> > > Subject: Re: current development > > > > Hi, > > > > I’m an ex-avid-gnubg player, but ever since I found XG, I never looked > back. And this is from a die-hard Mac user/evangelist, who actually only > installed Parallels Desktop so that I could run XG on my Macs. Please don’t > tell my friends. > > > > Neural nets are of course key to take gnubg seriously again, and lots of > competent people will end up taking care of this, I sincerely hope. But I > would like to suggest another angle to evolve gnubg. > > > > But first a comment on UI/looks. I also do not share the view that gnubg > is much inferior to XG there. Heck, I consider XG’s UI is its only weak > point. It feels like a 1990’s Windows app, because essentially its creator > (who is a fantastic guy) never cared much to evolve his UI skills beyong > what he learned :-) > > > > So if gnubg needs to improve its UI (which it does), from a visual point > of view the starting point should be something like backgammongalaxy (the > web site). Simple flat color schemes, as little visual noise as possible, > everything geared towards efficiency for learning yet clean and elegant. > And no, no 3D will ever help anybody learn to play better backgammon. > > > > Now for the other angle I mentioned above. > > > > What I am missing in the various competent apps around, is a trivial way > to build position databases, and study them. So this is a function which > would make an app stand out, at least for a while: > > > > - the database itself, with sections and filters etc > > - easy to feed from various 1-or-2-click methods (flag a position while > playing, while replaying someone’s match, copy XGid or any other id from > another app and paste into the db, why not even from a screenshot of the > whole board...) > > - the possibility to batch-generate technical equity data on a position, > a section, the whole db, using rollouts > > - the possibility to define quizz-based studies and score them (on a > section, on any hand-picked list) > > - a history of quizz scores to show play quality evolution over time > > > > All of this can be done today, but it takes a combination of tools and a > lot fiddling. This has to stop :-) > > > > Oh and finally: Android *AND* iOS have to be on the radar. Absolutely. > Soon only dinosaurs will be carrying around a laptop everywhere they go. I > was talking about myself there, but still even I may evolve one day... > > > > Cheers, > > Pierre > > > > On 25 Jan 2020, at 11:15, Sarah Payne <sarahhpa...@outlook.com> wrote: > > > > Here’s where I’ve got to - hope some of it proves helpful. > > > > I contacted the USBGF and UKBGF asking for any feedback / interest and / > or recommendations re generating fresh input from a new generation of > coders (also posted similar messages out to a few C programming forums). > > > > Not much joy here I’m afraid. I think the main issue at USBGF & UKBGF > (ie for professional or competitive players / club players or serious > hobbyists) is how far gnu has fallen behind XG now (unlike Snowie in its > day, XG is generally affordable, available for mobiles & a new version with > enhanced neural nets, compatible with Mac as well as Windows for the first > time, is due for release at the end of the year). > > > > But ‘free to all’ is still a significant USP for GNUBG especially among > younger players (and in other parts of the world) & GNUBG is still cited up > there as best of the rest on more general games forums. But as far as I can > tell (in the UK at least) there are no clubs / tournaments / forums > ringfenced for younger players so hard to know how to tap into this for > feedback / enthusiasm / new coding talent. > > > > I also contacted Chris Bray, one of the UK’s leading writers and > promoters of the game. He’s the one who filled me in on the latest re XG. > In his opinion: > > > > ‘…gnubg always had creditable neural net engines but never had a > friendly User Interface which held it back considerably. I always felt it > was written by technical programmers with little commercial awareness of > how people would use it in the real world.’ > > > > I don’t share this view. I’m not a techie but I prefer the gnu layout / > interface to XG’s. Having said that, I’m not a professional / competitive > player either, which no doubt involves different priorities. Also I’ve been > playing GNU for a long time & it probably took a few goes to get it set up > the way I wanted (not sure that’s how big a deal that is, though). > > > > In Bray’s opinion, ‘for gnubg to reemerge as a viable alternative to XG > it will need an enhanced user interface and well-integrated app version for > apple & android tablets / phones, as well as upgraded neural nets.’ > > > > In my opinion, a phone version would broaden appeal / access but the > most critical issue is the neural nets. XG feels like a very different > animal as an opponent - noticeably more opportunistic & aggressive, so some > degree of congruence asap seems critical for gnubg to hold ground. > > > > A final note from Chris: > > > > ‘FYI on my ToDo list is to talk to DeepMind about whether they intend to > create an AlphaZero Backgammon.’ > > > > No update from him on this as yet. How about contacting them yourself to > propose a gnubg / DeepMind collaboration? > > > > Alternatively (or also): > > > > In a subsequent email Chris mentioned ‘seeing an emerging group of > highly-talented younger players, many of them Japanese.’ > > > > How about a Japanese collaboration / appeal for new coders? Language is > clearly a barrier to this, but would it be possible to find some bilingual > volunteers via the main gnu project to act as go-between? I don’t know how > global the main project is, but backgammon is huge in parts of the Middle > East so appeals here / Africa / India (where English is also more widely > spoken) could also prove fruitful. > > > > Finally, whilst I haven’t had any specific responses from UKBGF or USBGF > to my general inquiries, it should be possible to put out a broadcast with > either or both of these organisations (& via them to the local club > networks) with specific announcements or requests for feedback eg for or > from younger players / coders interested in collaboration. You may want to > consider this. If it’s general player feedback you want, you probably need > to frame some very specific questions. Oystein said: ‘First we need an > idea, then we have to verify that idea, and then we have to set it into > life, which might trigger a bigger VM or a cluster.’ As a non-techie I get > the gist of this (and as a description of the work process find it > intriguing!) but I’m in the dark as to what type of ideas you mean, or what > kind of information you want. > > > > There we are, then: my progress to date. Still happy to help, for what > it’s worth, and I would love to be kept updated on any progress your end. > > > > All best with that, & a Happy New Year to you all – thanks once again > for all the fine work to date. > > > > Sarah > > > > > > > > Sent from Mail for Windows 10 > > > > ________________________________ > > From: Øystein Schønning-Johansen <oyste...@gmail.com> > > Sent: Wednesday, December 11, 2019 5:48:59 PM > > To: Sarah Payne <sarahhpa...@outlook.com> > > Subject: Re: current development > > > > Yes. Just give it some thought. If you post to the mailing list or to > just me, you can decide yourself. I'm not the most active developer at the > time, so maybe posting to the mailing list is a good idea. > > > > -Øystein > > > > On Wed, Dec 11, 2019 at 6:10 PM Sarah Payne <sarahhpa...@outlook.com> > wrote: > > > > Ok I’ll give this some thought. Do I reply to you or reply all? > > > > Sent from Mail for Windows 10 > > > > ________________________________ > > From: Øystein Schønning-Johansen <oyste...@gmail.com> > > Sent: Monday, December 9, 2019 10:08:34 PM > > To: Sarah Payne <sarahhpa...@outlook.com> > > Subject: Re: current development > > > > Hi, Sarah! > > > > Thanks for your gratitude. I think all involved developers are busy with > other day time jobs, and GNU Backgammon is hence just a spare time project > for us. We hence have what we need for a living through our daily jobs. > However, as you see development has slowed down the later years. > > > > I think what we need in this project is: > > - Motivation > > - Enthusiasm > > - Cheering > > > > so, I think that you email started some sparks. You saw that! Maybe if > we just continue to post some messages to this mailing list, maybe > something will even happen. Keep posting suggestions and question and be > positive and cheer up the life of the readers. That will probably be the > best contribution back to the project. > > > > There might be occasion where some hard money can contribute and that > might be when/if we start training something on big virtual servers, and > these virtual servers can have some cost attached. But that is only > guesswork from me. First we need an idea, then we have to verify that idea, > and then we have to set it into life, which might trigger a bigger VM or a > cluster. In that case we can discuss how to fund that. Sponsors or we chip > in or we get voluntary gifts from backgammon enthusiast? Anyway -- It's far > ahead. > > > > Maybe fresh blood among the developers might help? Do you go to a local > backgammon club? > > Are there any computer geeks and nerds in you club? (apart from you?). > The developers in this projects are old nerds with gray hair or no hair at > all (like me), who learned to develop software last millennium, and maybe > some of the code can be improved if fresh blood was added. If you are > playing in a club, your contribution could be to go over to the young > (younger than me and the other guys in the development team) geek in the > corner and ask him/her if he she has seen GNU Backgammon, or knows neural > network, or like programming, and knows the C programming language... so > on.... if you get a developer interested that can also be your > contribution back. :-) > > > > That's how it goes. And thank you so much for the spark you started. It > means a lot. > > > > Best rolls and regards > > -Øystein > > > > On Sun, Dec 8, 2019 at 6:36 PM Sarah Payne <sarahhpa...@outlook.com> > wrote: > > > > Hi Oystein > > > > Unfortunately I’m not a coder but I’ve used this software so often for > no charge I was wondering if it’s possible to give money sometimes to the > backgammon project to help keep it going / up to date. I’m sure I can’t be > the only person to feel this way. You should all be very proud of this > programme which has remained competitive for so long even without much > recent development. In my opinion, it’s still the most user friendly set-up > as well - v flexible & intuitive. > > > > What are the biggest hurdles to keeping it competitive? Man hours, > computer hours? Does the neural networking approach used up until this > point need to evolve / become more resource hungry to keep up with > something like Extreme Gammon for example? > > > > Forgive my ignorance in this area – I’m very interested but understand > very little of this area. And if this is not appropriate conversation for > these lists, no problem, just let me know. > > > > Thanks – and please, yes, feel encouraged to get going again! :) > > > > Sarah > > > > > > Sent from Mail for Windows 10 > > > > ________________________________ > > From: Øystein Schønning-Johansen <oyste...@gmail.com> > > Sent: Tuesday, December 3, 2019 5:01:50 PM > > To: Sarah Payne <sarahhpa...@outlook.com> > > Cc: bug-gnubg@gnu.org <bug-gnubg@gnu.org> > > Subject: Re: current development > > > > Hi Sarah! > > > > Thanks for taking contact. Good to hear that you like GNU Backgammon. > > Is it still under development? Hmmm... debatable. There has not been > many major improvements the last few years. > > > > Take a look at the projects ChangeLog. > > > http://cvs.savannah.gnu.org/viewvc/gnubg/gnubg/ChangeLog?revision=1.2654&view=markup > > > > As you see there isn't much happening. > > > > Of course you can contribute if you want. After all this project is Open > Source an anyone can do whatever changes they want. > > Just post comments here on the mailing list, and it can shear up some of > the sleeping developers. > > > > If you are a developer and want to contribute with code, we can of > course provide you write access to the cvs repository. (Yes, it is as old > that it's using cvs to do code revision). > > Since everyone is more or less "sleeping", there is no real TODO list. > Maybe some code janitor work? Refactoring? Maybe c99-ify some of the code. > Maybe you can suggest a feature? Or report a bug? > > > > Even though I'm not doing much on GNU Backgammon (I've not done much the > last 10 years) these days, I guess if we just chat about some details, it > might be the spark that starts up a new motivation among us. There are some > discussions still on this mailing list, last week there was a new Match > Equity Table presented (Thanks Ian). If we just chat more, maybe something > can start flowing again. I'm getting more time as my kids grow older. So, > who knows what happens. > > > > Best regards, > > -Øystein > > > > > > On Tue, Dec 3, 2019 at 3:58 PM Sarah Payne <sarahhpa...@outlook.com> > wrote: > > > > Hello there. Been a huge fan for many years of gnu backgammon, many > thanks to everyone involved. Is the software still under development with > new versions coming? Is it possible to contribute directly to this project? > > > > Thanks > > > > Sarah > > > > > > Sent from Mail for Windows 10 > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Subject: Digest Footer > > _______________________________________________ > Bug-gnubg mailing list > Bug-gnubg@gnu.org > https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/bug-gnubg > > > ------------------------------ > > End of Bug-gnubg Digest, Vol 202, Issue 16 > ****************************************** >
