Hi! Yes there is a huge amount of action tags (hit or not, give up anchor or not, and so on) and a lot of position tags (you have a 20 point anchor, you have a 4 point prime, and so on).
Tags are automatically set on a position upon importing a match (or after the match on Heroes). How intelligent it is I don't know but I think it is pretty cool. You can click through the about link I sent in previous email for examples: https://www.backgammonstudio.com/about/ Best regards, TP On Wed, Jan 29, 2020 at 7:05 PM Wayne Joseph <waynejos...@gmail.com> wrote: > > Hi Terje, > > >> (130 different action tags) > > Do any of your products intelligently and automatically tag the type of > positional (or cube action) problems? > > Thanks, > > Wayne > > -- Sent from my Android phone > > On Wed, 29 Jan 2020, 5:00 pm , <bug-gnubg-requ...@gnu.org> wrote: >> >> Send Bug-gnubg mailing list submissions to >> bug-gnubg@gnu.org >> >> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit >> https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/bug-gnubg >> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to >> bug-gnubg-requ...@gnu.org >> >> You can reach the person managing the list at >> bug-gnubg-ow...@gnu.org >> >> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific >> than "Re: Contents of Bug-gnubg digest..." >> >> >> Today's Topics: >> >> 1. Re: current development (Terje Pedersen) >> >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> Message: 1 >> Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2020 14:59:30 +0100 >> From: Terje Pedersen <terj...@gmail.com> >> To: pviau <pierre.v...@esa.int> >> Cc: Sarah Payne <sarahhpa...@outlook.com>, Mary Hickey >> <thehic...@hotmail.com>, "bug-gnubg@gnu.org" <bug-gnubg@gnu.org>, >> "Timothy Y. Chow" <tc...@math.princeton.edu>, Michael Petch >> <mpe...@gnubg.org>, Chris Yep <ch...@columbusbg.org>, Øystein >> Schønning-Johansen <oyste...@gmail.com> >> Subject: Re: current development >> Message-ID: >> <CAJGAYCw33TVbtW1WGU9dDOaLggsUczWf7ZJ_rU2wxUxTL=v...@mail.gmail.com> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" >> >> Hi! >> >> Backgammon Studio has an option for a private database where you can >> add your own matches which you can grow over time and do all kinds of >> things with. This server requires XG to analyze matches before you can >> upload them. Search through all positions from all your matches where >> you made a -0.100 or bigger 'hit or not' error (130 different action >> tags) in combination with a myriad of other search options. I made >> https://www.backgammonstudio.com/about/ some time ago showing some of >> what the server can do. >> >> Heroes does away with this and automatically adds your errors to your >> private database after the match is over. It uses gnu bg analysed >> moves. For most players I think gnu bg is more than strong enough to >> point out your errors and help you improve your game. >> >> Yes offline would be sweet but I don't think it will work for any >> reasonable revenue generation (I quit my day job some years ago). >> >> The future is online! :-) >> >> Best regards, >> TP >> >> On Wed, Jan 29, 2020 at 11:31 AM pviau <pierre.v...@esa.int> wrote: >> > >> > Just 2 more cents: Backgammon Studio is great, but it’s not just the quizz >> > aspect I was advocating as a feature for a future “attractive gnubg”, it’s >> > having your own position database to evolve and study. This apparently is >> > not possible in Studio, although I may have missed it. >> > >> > Sure rehearsing generic databases (say openings and replies) is great, but >> > maintaining and studying your own set of reference positions is invaluable. >> > >> > And I’ll say again: I wish we could rehearse without any internet >> > connection (plane ride, or whatever reason for not being online). >> > >> > Cheers, >> > Pierre >> > _____ >> > >> > On 29 Jan 2020, at 10:28, Sarah Payne <sarahhpa...@outlook.com> wrote: >> > >> > Hi Joseph. Before responding to your last let me repeat that I don’t have >> > anything like the skill or experience necessary to contribute real >> > expertise here, only enthusiasm for the game & a great deal of admiration >> > for the gnubg project, so please make allowances for that. But re your >> > query about analysis of gnu with xg: could this be the next step for >> > planning an update / new release? >> > >> > For sure, I would expect gnu still to have some playing strengths against >> > xg. That’s what is so impressive: how it’s still as strong as it is with >> > no new recent versions. Let’s not forget we’re only comparing it to what’s >> > currently considered to be the world’s best. >> > >> > Intuitively? I think gnu still has something xg doesn’t, ‘a different >> > animal’ is not a criticism per se. But as you point out, intuition is >> > nothing. Also it doesn’t seem necessary to wait another year for the new >> > version of xg. This kind of comparative / competitive development will >> > always be ongoing / open-ended. >> > >> > >> > >> > Sent from Mail for Windows 10 >> > >> > ________________________________ >> > From: Joseph Heled <jhe...@gmail.com> >> > Sent: Monday, January 27, 2020 9:23:36 PM >> > To: Mary Hickey <thehic...@hotmail.com> >> > Cc: Sarah Payne <sarahhpa...@outlook.com>; pviau <pierre.v...@esa.int>; >> > Timothy Y. Chow <tc...@math.princeton.edu>; Michael Petch >> > <mpe...@gnubg.org>; Øystein Schønning-Johansen <oyste...@gmail.com>; Chris >> > Yep <ch...@columbusbg.org> >> > Subject: Re: current development >> > >> > Sounds like a good idea, but why bother with BOTS? just play against the >> > current GNU version and analyze with XG. Perhaps this has already been >> > done and just needs publicizing? >> > >> > -Joseph >> > >> > >> > On Tue, 28 Jan 2020 at 10:04, Mary Hickey <thehic...@hotmail.com> wrote: >> > >> > Hi Joseph, >> > >> > I was referring more to the interface than the playing strength, but you >> > are right that the general perception is that XG is the gold standard >> > regarding playing as well as onscreen viewing and printing. Maybe that >> > perception needs to be addressed, though since a new version of XG is >> > rumored to be coming out soon, it might be better to wait and compare GNU >> > to that instead. >> > >> > One way to produce some data, which isn't exactly the same as evidence, is >> > have a bunch of us play vs. whatever bot is considered to be the best >> > representation of GNU at the various servers, then chuck the matches >> > through XG at a comparable level, say 3-ply rather than world class. Has >> > this already been done? And if this idea makes any sense, which bot at >> > FIBS and also at Backgammon Studio best represents the current GNU? And >> > what level of XG analysis is to be considered comparable? >> > >> > After we find where the bots differ, we can roll the positions out and see >> > which gets the nod. I'd trust either bot to roll them out well on good >> > settings. >> > >> > I like this method because it's not difficult either to understand or to >> > do. It won't detect all the flaws in either program, because rarer >> > positions aren't as likely to be seen even in a large number of matches >> > (...duh...that's why they're rare LOL) but we might learn something anyway. >> > >> > Mary >> > >> > >> > >> > ________________________________ >> > From: Joseph Heled <jhe...@gmail.com> >> > Sent: Monday, January 27, 2020 3:24 PM >> > To: Mary Hickey <thehic...@hotmail.com> >> > Cc: Sarah Payne <sarahhpa...@outlook.com>; pviau <pierre.v...@esa.int>; >> > Timothy Y. Chow <tc...@math.princeton.edu>; Michael Petch >> > <mpe...@gnubg.org>; Øystein Schønning-Johansen <oyste...@gmail.com> >> > Subject: Re: current development >> > >> > I am very happy to see (reasonably priced) for-pay services for BG >> > players. It means the game is still alive, which is far more important >> > than any one BOT, free or not. >> > >> > But perceptions vs. reality is one of the issues we are talking about, >> > right? would you be able to put something, based on your experience, that >> > will show that XG and GNU-BG are not that different in terms of playing >> > strength, or "prove us wrong" by showing why XG is superior? >> > >> > -Joseph >> > >> > >> > On Tue, 28 Jan 2020 at 08:19, Mary Hickey <thehic...@hotmail.com> wrote: >> > >> > Hi Joseph, >> > >> > It doesn't have to be the end, but from the posts I'm reading, it appears >> > many programming person-hours will need to be directed just toward >> > catching up with XG and other tools now available elsewhere. For example, >> > Pierre talks about quizzes, but you can take quizzes all day and night at >> > backgammonstudio.com, play vs. other people, yak at the forum and also >> > study an extensive library of matches for $24 a year. >> > >> > But since GNU is the bot that follows you in consultation matches there, >> > and also is the engine running the FIBS-bots if memory serves, it has some >> > immortality, don't you think? >> > >> > Mary >> > >> > ________________________________ >> > From: Joseph Heled <jhe...@gmail.com> >> > Sent: Monday, January 27, 2020 2:03 PM >> > To: Mary Hickey <thehic...@hotmail.com> >> > Cc: Sarah Payne <sarahhpa...@outlook.com>; pviau <pierre.v...@esa.int>; >> > Timothy Y. Chow <tc...@math.princeton.edu>; Michael Petch >> > <mpe...@gnubg.org>; bug-gnubg@gnu.org <bug-gnubg@gnu.org>; Øystein >> > Schønning-Johansen <oyste...@gmail.com> >> > Subject: Re: current development >> > >> > Nice obituary, Mary :) >> > >> > -Joseph >> > >> > >> > On Mon, 27 Jan 2020 at 12:38, Mary Hickey <thehic...@hotmail.com> wrote: >> > >> > To the entire GNU-bg Community, >> > >> > I remain a GNU fan even though I'm One of Those People who stopped using >> > it once XG established itself as the go-to backgammon bot. And having read >> > this email exchange, I'm shouting out a huge "THANK YOU!" to this >> > community for its contribution to the game, and its example of >> > co-operation, trust and mutual respect among programmers from all over the >> > world. >> > >> > I'm not a coder, but remember helping test the GNU-bots at FIBS and >> > providing feedback regarding their practical play on FIBS to the >> > developers. I appreciate the GNU community's generosity in permitting >> > GNU-engined bots to play on any servers that want them. >> > >> > Wherever this project goes from here, the co-operation and always >> > respectful communications among the members of this community shine >> > brightly in a world that needs more of those qualities. >> > >> > Sincerely yours, >> > >> > Mary Hickey >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > ________________________________ >> > From: Bug-gnubg <bug-gnubg-bounces+thehick64=hotmail....@gnu.org> on >> > behalf of Sarah Payne <sarahhpa...@outlook.com> >> > Sent: Saturday, January 25, 2020 10:18 AM >> > To: pviau <pierre.v...@esa.int> >> > Cc: bug-gnubg@gnu.org <bug-gnubg@gnu.org>; Øystein Schønning-Johansen >> > <oyste...@gmail.com> >> > Subject: RE: current development >> > >> > Hi Pviau, re position databases I’m guessing this is just the kind of >> > feedback needed, particularly coming from someone familiar with xg’s >> > potential. It would be a huge bonus to have a feature like this to launch >> > a new version & get gnubg back on the radar of serious players. >> > >> > >> > >> > But I’d suggest just one new feature / usp of this kind (& err towards >> > keeping it simple). Develop neural nets / cross platform compatibility >> > then get a new version out there soon as, before people forget how good >> > the project is. >> > >> > >> > >> > Completely agree re offline functionality. Also re UI: flat, simple, >> > clean. Very little required there. >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > Sent from Mail for Windows 10 >> > >> > >> > >> > ________________________________ >> > From: pviau <pierre.v...@esa.int> >> > Sent: Saturday, January 25, 2020 11:04:43 AM >> > To: Sarah Payne <sarahhpa...@outlook.com> >> > Cc: Øystein Schønning-Johansen <oyste...@gmail.com>; bug-gnubg@gnu.org >> > <bug-gnubg@gnu.org> >> > Subject: Re: current development >> > >> > Hi, >> > >> > I’m an ex-avid-gnubg player, but ever since I found XG, I never looked >> > back. And this is from a die-hard Mac user/evangelist, who actually only >> > installed Parallels Desktop so that I could run XG on my Macs. Please >> > don’t tell my friends. >> > >> > Neural nets are of course key to take gnubg seriously again, and lots of >> > competent people will end up taking care of this, I sincerely hope. But I >> > would like to suggest another angle to evolve gnubg. >> > >> > But first a comment on UI/looks. I also do not share the view that gnubg >> > is much inferior to XG there. Heck, I consider XG’s UI is its only weak >> > point. It feels like a 1990’s Windows app, because essentially its creator >> > (who is a fantastic guy) never cared much to evolve his UI skills beyong >> > what he learned :-) >> > >> > So if gnubg needs to improve its UI (which it does), from a visual point >> > of view the starting point should be something like backgammongalaxy (the >> > web site). Simple flat color schemes, as little visual noise as possible, >> > everything geared towards efficiency for learning yet clean and elegant. >> > And no, no 3D will ever help anybody learn to play better backgammon. >> > >> > Now for the other angle I mentioned above. >> > >> > What I am missing in the various competent apps around, is a trivial way >> > to build position databases, and study them. So this is a function which >> > would make an app stand out, at least for a while: >> > >> > - the database itself, with sections and filters etc >> > - easy to feed from various 1-or-2-click methods (flag a position while >> > playing, while replaying someone’s match, copy XGid or any other id from >> > another app and paste into the db, why not even from a screenshot of the >> > whole board...) >> > - the possibility to batch-generate technical equity data on a position, a >> > section, the whole db, using rollouts >> > - the possibility to define quizz-based studies and score them (on a >> > section, on any hand-picked list) >> > - a history of quizz scores to show play quality evolution over time >> > >> > All of this can be done today, but it takes a combination of tools and a >> > lot fiddling. This has to stop :-) >> > >> > Oh and finally: Android *AND* iOS have to be on the radar. Absolutely. >> > Soon only dinosaurs will be carrying around a laptop everywhere they go. I >> > was talking about myself there, but still even I may evolve one day... >> > >> > Cheers, >> > Pierre >> > >> > On 25 Jan 2020, at 11:15, Sarah Payne <sarahhpa...@outlook.com> wrote: >> > >> > Here’s where I’ve got to - hope some of it proves helpful. >> > >> > I contacted the USBGF and UKBGF asking for any feedback / interest and / >> > or recommendations re generating fresh input from a new generation of >> > coders (also posted similar messages out to a few C programming forums). >> > >> > Not much joy here I’m afraid. I think the main issue at USBGF & UKBGF (ie >> > for professional or competitive players / club players or serious >> > hobbyists) is how far gnu has fallen behind XG now (unlike Snowie in its >> > day, XG is generally affordable, available for mobiles & a new version >> > with enhanced neural nets, compatible with Mac as well as Windows for the >> > first time, is due for release at the end of the year). >> > >> > But ‘free to all’ is still a significant USP for GNUBG especially among >> > younger players (and in other parts of the world) & GNUBG is still cited >> > up there as best of the rest on more general games forums. But as far as I >> > can tell (in the UK at least) there are no clubs / tournaments / forums >> > ringfenced for younger players so hard to know how to tap into this for >> > feedback / enthusiasm / new coding talent. >> > >> > I also contacted Chris Bray, one of the UK’s leading writers and promoters >> > of the game. He’s the one who filled me in on the latest re XG. In his >> > opinion: >> > >> > ‘…gnubg always had creditable neural net engines but never had a friendly >> > User Interface which held it back considerably. I always felt it was >> > written by technical programmers with little commercial awareness of how >> > people would use it in the real world.’ >> > >> > I don’t share this view. I’m not a techie but I prefer the gnu layout / >> > interface to XG’s. Having said that, I’m not a professional / competitive >> > player either, which no doubt involves different priorities. Also I’ve >> > been playing GNU for a long time & it probably took a few goes to get it >> > set up the way I wanted (not sure that’s how big a deal that is, though). >> > >> > In Bray’s opinion, ‘for gnubg to reemerge as a viable alternative to XG it >> > will need an enhanced user interface and well-integrated app version for >> > apple & android tablets / phones, as well as upgraded neural nets.’ >> > >> > In my opinion, a phone version would broaden appeal / access but the most >> > critical issue is the neural nets. XG feels like a very different animal >> > as an opponent - noticeably more opportunistic & aggressive, so some >> > degree of congruence asap seems critical for gnubg to hold ground. >> > >> > A final note from Chris: >> > >> > ‘FYI on my ToDo list is to talk to DeepMind about whether they intend to >> > create an AlphaZero Backgammon.’ >> > >> > No update from him on this as yet. How about contacting them yourself to >> > propose a gnubg / DeepMind collaboration? >> > >> > Alternatively (or also): >> > >> > In a subsequent email Chris mentioned ‘seeing an emerging group of >> > highly-talented younger players, many of them Japanese.’ >> > >> > How about a Japanese collaboration / appeal for new coders? Language is >> > clearly a barrier to this, but would it be possible to find some bilingual >> > volunteers via the main gnu project to act as go-between? I don’t know how >> > global the main project is, but backgammon is huge in parts of the Middle >> > East so appeals here / Africa / India (where English is also more widely >> > spoken) could also prove fruitful. >> > >> > Finally, whilst I haven’t had any specific responses from UKBGF or USBGF >> > to my general inquiries, it should be possible to put out a broadcast with >> > either or both of these organisations (& via them to the local club >> > networks) with specific announcements or requests for feedback eg for or >> > from younger players / coders interested in collaboration. You may want to >> > consider this. If it’s general player feedback you want, you probably need >> > to frame some very specific questions. Oystein said: ‘First we need an >> > idea, then we have to verify that idea, and then we have to set it into >> > life, which might trigger a bigger VM or a cluster.’ As a non-techie I get >> > the gist of this (and as a description of the work process find it >> > intriguing!) but I’m in the dark as to what type of ideas you mean, or >> > what kind of information you want. >> > >> > There we are, then: my progress to date. Still happy to help, for what >> > it’s worth, and I would love to be kept updated on any progress your end. >> > >> > All best with that, & a Happy New Year to you all – thanks once again for >> > all the fine work to date. >> > >> > Sarah >> > >> > >> > >> > Sent from Mail for Windows 10 >> > >> > ________________________________ >> > From: Øystein Schønning-Johansen <oyste...@gmail.com> >> > Sent: Wednesday, December 11, 2019 5:48:59 PM >> > To: Sarah Payne <sarahhpa...@outlook.com> >> > Subject: Re: current development >> > >> > Yes. Just give it some thought. If you post to the mailing list or to just >> > me, you can decide yourself. I'm not the most active developer at the >> > time, so maybe posting to the mailing list is a good idea. >> > >> > -Øystein >> > >> > On Wed, Dec 11, 2019 at 6:10 PM Sarah Payne <sarahhpa...@outlook.com> >> > wrote: >> > >> > Ok I’ll give this some thought. Do I reply to you or reply all? >> > >> > Sent from Mail for Windows 10 >> > >> > ________________________________ >> > From: Øystein Schønning-Johansen <oyste...@gmail.com> >> > Sent: Monday, December 9, 2019 10:08:34 PM >> > To: Sarah Payne <sarahhpa...@outlook.com> >> > Subject: Re: current development >> > >> > Hi, Sarah! >> > >> > Thanks for your gratitude. I think all involved developers are busy with >> > other day time jobs, and GNU Backgammon is hence just a spare time project >> > for us. We hence have what we need for a living through our daily jobs. >> > However, as you see development has slowed down the later years. >> > >> > I think what we need in this project is: >> > - Motivation >> > - Enthusiasm >> > - Cheering >> > >> > so, I think that you email started some sparks. You saw that! Maybe if we >> > just continue to post some messages to this mailing list, maybe something >> > will even happen. Keep posting suggestions and question and be positive >> > and cheer up the life of the readers. That will probably be the best >> > contribution back to the project. >> > >> > There might be occasion where some hard money can contribute and that >> > might be when/if we start training something on big virtual servers, and >> > these virtual servers can have some cost attached. But that is only >> > guesswork from me. First we need an idea, then we have to verify that >> > idea, and then we have to set it into life, which might trigger a bigger >> > VM or a cluster. In that case we can discuss how to fund that. Sponsors or >> > we chip in or we get voluntary gifts from backgammon enthusiast? Anyway -- >> > It's far ahead. >> > >> > Maybe fresh blood among the developers might help? Do you go to a local >> > backgammon club? >> > Are there any computer geeks and nerds in you club? (apart from you?). The >> > developers in this projects are old nerds with gray hair or no hair at all >> > (like me), who learned to develop software last millennium, and maybe some >> > of the code can be improved if fresh blood was added. If you are playing >> > in a club, your contribution could be to go over to the young (younger >> > than me and the other guys in the development team) geek in the corner and >> > ask him/her if he she has seen GNU Backgammon, or knows neural network, or >> > like programming, and knows the C programming language... so on.... if >> > you get a developer interested that can also be your contribution back. :-) >> > >> > That's how it goes. And thank you so much for the spark you started. It >> > means a lot. >> > >> > Best rolls and regards >> > -Øystein >> > >> > On Sun, Dec 8, 2019 at 6:36 PM Sarah Payne <sarahhpa...@outlook.com> wrote: >> > >> > Hi Oystein >> > >> > Unfortunately I’m not a coder but I’ve used this software so often for no >> > charge I was wondering if it’s possible to give money sometimes to the >> > backgammon project to help keep it going / up to date. I’m sure I can’t be >> > the only person to feel this way. You should all be very proud of this >> > programme which has remained competitive for so long even without much >> > recent development. In my opinion, it’s still the most user friendly >> > set-up as well - v flexible & intuitive. >> > >> > What are the biggest hurdles to keeping it competitive? Man hours, >> > computer hours? Does the neural networking approach used up until this >> > point need to evolve / become more resource hungry to keep up with >> > something like Extreme Gammon for example? >> > >> > Forgive my ignorance in this area – I’m very interested but understand >> > very little of this area. And if this is not appropriate conversation for >> > these lists, no problem, just let me know. >> > >> > Thanks – and please, yes, feel encouraged to get going again! :) >> > >> > Sarah >> > >> > >> > Sent from Mail for Windows 10 >> > >> > ________________________________ >> > From: Øystein Schønning-Johansen <oyste...@gmail.com> >> > Sent: Tuesday, December 3, 2019 5:01:50 PM >> > To: Sarah Payne <sarahhpa...@outlook.com> >> > Cc: bug-gnubg@gnu.org <bug-gnubg@gnu.org> >> > Subject: Re: current development >> > >> > Hi Sarah! >> > >> > Thanks for taking contact. Good to hear that you like GNU Backgammon. >> > Is it still under development? Hmmm... debatable. There has not been many >> > major improvements the last few years. >> > >> > Take a look at the projects ChangeLog. >> > http://cvs.savannah.gnu.org/viewvc/gnubg/gnubg/ChangeLog?revision=1.2654&view=markup >> > >> > As you see there isn't much happening. >> > >> > Of course you can contribute if you want. After all this project is Open >> > Source an anyone can do whatever changes they want. >> > Just post comments here on the mailing list, and it can shear up some of >> > the sleeping developers. >> > >> > If you are a developer and want to contribute with code, we can of course >> > provide you write access to the cvs repository. (Yes, it is as old that >> > it's using cvs to do code revision). >> > Since everyone is more or less "sleeping", there is no real TODO list. >> > Maybe some code janitor work? Refactoring? Maybe c99-ify some of the code. >> > Maybe you can suggest a feature? Or report a bug? >> > >> > Even though I'm not doing much on GNU Backgammon (I've not done much the >> > last 10 years) these days, I guess if we just chat about some details, it >> > might be the spark that starts up a new motivation among us. There are >> > some discussions still on this mailing list, last week there was a new >> > Match Equity Table presented (Thanks Ian). If we just chat more, maybe >> > something can start flowing again. I'm getting more time as my kids grow >> > older. So, who knows what happens. >> > >> > Best regards, >> > -Øystein >> > >> > >> > On Tue, Dec 3, 2019 at 3:58 PM Sarah Payne <sarahhpa...@outlook.com> wrote: >> > >> > Hello there. Been a huge fan for many years of gnu backgammon, many thanks >> > to everyone involved. Is the software still under development with new >> > versions coming? Is it possible to contribute directly to this project? >> > >> > Thanks >> > >> > Sarah >> > >> > >> > Sent from Mail for Windows 10 >> > >> > >> >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Subject: Digest Footer >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Bug-gnubg mailing list >> Bug-gnubg@gnu.org >> https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/bug-gnubg >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> End of Bug-gnubg Digest, Vol 202, Issue 16 >> ******************************************