There are 15 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1a. Re: Screen Reader Semantics, was: Senjecan orthography: weak vowels.
From: Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews
1b. Re: Screen Reader Semantics, was: Senjecan orthography: weak vowels.
From: BPJ
1c. Re: Screen Reader Semantics, was: Senjecan orthography: weak vowels.
From: Padraic Brown
1d. Re: Screen Reader Semantics, was: Senjecan orthography: weak vowels.
From: Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews
2. Seeking Feedback On The Ancestral Case System
From: Brent Scarcliff
3a. Conlangers in the Seattle area?
From: Scott Hamilton
3b. Re: Conlangers in the Seattle area?
From: Cosman246
4.1. Re: Introduction
From: Alex Fink
5a. Re: Suggestions of linguistically realistic movies.
From: Leonardo Castro
6a. THEORY: How to be beautiful?
From: Leonardo Castro
6b. Re: THEORY: How to be beautiful?
From: Allison Swenson
6c. Re: THEORY: How to be beautiful?
From: Nina-Kristine Johnson
6d. Re: THEORY: How to be beautiful?
From: Jyri Lehtinen
6e. Re: THEORY: How to be beautiful?
From: Sam Stutter
6f. Re: THEORY: How to be beautiful?
From: J. 'Mach' Wust
Messages
________________________________________________________________________
1a. Re: Screen Reader Semantics, was: Senjecan orthography: weak vowels.
Posted by: "Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews" goldyemo...@gmail.com
Date: Mon May 27, 2013 8:59 am ((PDT))
I agree, the reader interprets all conlang words as English, now there is a way
to go into Jaws and change the pronunciation of words, but it has to be done
individually like in Msword, the developers usually take into account user
feedback. How do I phrase my suggestion about the conlang issue?
Mellissa Green
@GreenNovelist
-----Original Message-----
From: Constructed Languages List [mailto:conl...@listserv.brown.edu] On Behalf
Of Padraic Brown
Sent: Monday, May 27, 2013 4:15 AM
To: conl...@listserv.brown.edu
Subject: Re: Screen Reader Semantics, was: Senjecan orthography: weak vowels.
--- On Sun, 5/26/13, Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews <goldyemo...@gmail.com>
wrote:
> Too bad they don't have a way for screen readers like Jaws
> somehow tell what writers mean in messages.
Now that would be a technological miracle indeed. I can sée the screen,
and sometimes don't know what the writer meant in the message! :)
> I guess it could also depend on the person's wordage. That
> could also mislead a message listener.
It seemed to me that one issue there was the presumption that every word
encountered by the reader is an English word. And therefore words that
appear in Senjecas, or any other conlang, and possibly other natural
languages as well, get treated as wrongly spelled.
> Apparently, a new Jaws is coming out, as they've just posted
> some webinars, which I've signed up for, the webinars will
> discuss new features.
Indeed. I hope that they take into account user feedback! Some of these
issues are things you could probably address to their developers for
use in future versions.
> Speaking of webinars, I think their should be conlang
> webinars.
There's certainly no technical reason why this can't be done. Live chats
and so forth are old hat for the community. Perhaps future LCCs (Language
Creation Conferences) could involve such capabilities.
Padraic
>
> Mellissa Green
>
>
> @GreenNovelist
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Constructed Languages List [mailto:conl...@listserv.brown.edu]
> On Behalf Of Padraic Brown
> Sent: Sunday, May 26, 2013 6:06 AM
> To: conl...@listserv.brown.edu
> Subject: Re: Senjecan orthography: weak vowels.
>
> --- On Wed, 5/22/13, Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews <goldyemo...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > Where did he have different spellings?
>
> His original list contained eight different renderings of
> the same word:
>
> sanółtęvi; sanółt ë vi; sanółt ə vi; sanółt ɘ
> vi; sanółt ε vi; sanółt ɜ vi;
> sanółt э vi; sanółt є vi
>
> They all involve different possible spellings for the third
> vowel.
>
> I just downloaded the demo of Jaws to hear what you're
> hearing. I got a
> lot of "misspelled" errors in that list. When it spoke the
> pertinent
> vowels at all, they all sounded equally murky to me. It
> doesn't just
> read what it sees, but it tries to interpret what it sees in
> terms of
> English.
>
> That is a potential problem for anyone, such as yourself,
> trying to read
> non-English words in a message like this.
>
> > It read the message fine.
>
> To be honest, if you were unable to even realise that there
> were
> differences, and having just listened to the list read by
> Jaws I can
> commiserate, I think it's handling the message in a way
> other than how the
> writer intended!
>
> I will say this: if I had to listen to that synthesised
> voice for more
> than about twelve and a half minutes, I think it would drive
> me absolutely
> bonkers and I'd probably end up throwing the whole computer
> right out
> the window.
>
> In the short time I interacted with the system, I think I
> spent more time
> listening to irrelevant header information than I did to
> listening to the
> message itself. Clearly, the highly visual online world does
> not translate
> well for anyone using a screen reader of this sort!
>
> Padraic
>
> > They just updated the screen reader. Why do you ask?
> >
> > Mellissa Green
> >
> >
> > @GreenNovelist
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Constructed Languages List [mailto:conl...@listserv.brown.edu]
> > On Behalf Of Adam Walker
> > Sent: Wednesday, May 22, 2013 2:23 PM
> > To: conl...@listserv.brown.edu
> > Subject: Re: Senjecan orthography: weak vowels.
> >
> > What does your screen reader do with Chralie's
> different
> > spellings since
> > they are just different letters to spell exactly the
> same
> > word?
> >
> > Adam
> >
> > On Wed, May 22, 2013 at 7:10 PM, Nicole Valicia
> > Thompson-Andrews <
> > goldyemo...@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > What's 8? I like 1 through 4.
> > >
> > > Mellissa Green
> > >
> > >
> > > @GreenNovelist
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Constructed Languages List [mailto:conl...@listserv.brown.edu]
> > On
> > > Behalf Of C. Brickner
> > > Sent: Wednesday, May 22, 2013 2:08 PM
> > > To: conl...@listserv.brown.edu
> > > Subject: Re: Senjecan orthography: weak vowels.
> > >
> > > Thanks. I apologize to all for the large
> > gaps. It didn't look that way
> > > when I typed it!
> > > Charlie
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > I think I like 2, 5 and 8 best. Of course
> you are
> > the one who has to live
> > > with the choice you make (until you change your
> > mind!!), but any of them
> > > could work. I don't think any of them would
> be
> > particularly difficult in
> > > cursive. Cyrilic cursive gets by with a
> whole
> > bunch of letters that face
> > > the "wrong" way.
> > >
> > > Adam
> > >
> > > On Wed, May 22, 2013 at 2:52 PM, C. Brickner
> <tepeyach...@embarqmail.com
> > > >wrote:
> > >
> > > > I don’t think I’ll ever be satisfied with
> the
> > orthography for Senejcas!
> > > > I’m trying to work with seven criteria:
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > 1. It can be written in cursive.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > 2. No diacritics.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > 3. No digraphs.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > 4. Latin letters.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > 5. Composed characters for ease in
> replacing.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > 6. Some semblance of correspondence between
> the
> > grapheme and some phoneme
> > > > somewhere.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > 7. My own esthetic sense.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Obviously, there has to be some give and
> > take. My current problem is
> > > how
> > > > to represent what are known in Senjecas as
> “weak
> > vowels”: I/ɪ; ə/@; and
> > > > ʊ/U.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > My first plan was to use ï,
> > ë, and ü. As I am
> using
> > single and double
> > > > acute accents to indicate tone, the diareses
> added
> > more clutter above the
> > > > letters, not to mention the occasional
> turned
> > comma above to indicate
> > > > palatalization and caron to indicate
> > labialization.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Then I went to symbols without diacritics:
> ı, ə,
> > and y. I really like
> > > > <ı>, but I don’t
> care
> > for <y> for that sound.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Currently I am using the three vowels with
> an
> > ogonek: į, ę ,ų. Not bad,
> > > > but there are
> diacritics. At
> > least they’re below the letters.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > The other day I was reading her translation
> of the
> > Babel story and I
> > > > noticed that Ms. Sotomayor had used several
> IPA
> > symbols in her
> > > orthography.
> > > > It didn’t look bad at
> > all! If a conlanger of her caliber
> could
> > do
> > > it, I
> > > > figured I could use non-Latin letters also.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Therefore, I can return to the use of the
> > <ı>.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > I have thought of two possibilities for
> > ʊ/U. I like the idea of the
> > > > turned m <ɯ>. In
> cursive,
> > the <i> would have one point, the <u> two
> > > > points, and the <ɯ> three
> > points. Another possibility is v with
> hook
> > > <ʋ>.
> > > > However, how is it written
> in
> > cursive? Maybe with some mark above
> it
> > > as
> > > > is done in cursive Fraktur to distinguish
> > <u> from <n>.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > I am having the most difficulty with the
> schwa.
> > Here are some
> > > > possibilities using the adverb
> ‘sanółtęvi’,
> > tonight.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > 1. sanółtęvi
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > 2. sanółt ë vi
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > 3. sanółt ə vi
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > 4. sanółt ɘ vi
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > 5. sanółt ε vi
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > 6. sanółt ɜ vi
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > 7. sanółt э vi
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > 8. sanółt є vi
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > #s 1 and 2 are eliminated because of the
> > diacritics. #3 is a
> > > > possibility; it is used in some natlangs
> > . #4 is not pleasing
> > > > esthetically. I see #5 as
> being
> > easy to write in cursive, #6 not so
> > > much.
> > > > I am leaning toward
> > #8. It’s not unattractive and it can
> be
> > written
> > > in
> > > > cursive like #5. Influenced by the
> numeral
> > 3, I suppose, I see #7 as
> > > > backward.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Opinions, suggestions, comments, etc.,
> welcomed.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Charlie
> > > >
> > >
> >
>
Messages in this topic (16)
________________________________________________________________________
1b. Re: Screen Reader Semantics, was: Senjecan orthography: weak vowels.
Posted by: "BPJ" b...@melroch.se
Date: Mon May 27, 2013 12:57 pm ((PDT))
2013-05-27 20:59, Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews skrev:
> I agree, the reader interprets all conlang words as English,
> now there is a way to go into Jaws and change the pronunciation
> of words, but it has to be done individually like in Msword,
> the developers usually take into account user feedback. How do
> I phrase my suggestion about the conlang issue?
You should *not* mention conlangs, or they'll be sure to write you
off as a weirdo and do nothing about it! They will *never*
do something to cater to weird hobbyists, but they might do
something to support people reading material containing text
in more than one natlang.
Instead you should suggest that they should
A. Make an option so that when the screenreader encounters a word
which it doesn't recognise as a correctly spelled English word it
should do one of the following, depending on what settings the
user has chosen:
1) If the word is found in a user-editable list of common
misspellings it should be read as such, if the user has
chosen this behavior.
2) Read out the word as if it were a word in some other
(natural) language the user has chosen.
3) Spell out the Unicode names of the characters.
4) First spell out the Unicode names of the characters and then
read out the word as if it were a word in some other
(natural) language the user has chosen.
B. Make an option so that any text delimited by a pair of markers
as chosen by the user is read out as per above.
C. Make a command so that you can back up to a certain word
and have it spelled out with Unicode character names.
You can then choose some suitably phonetically spelled language
and get (2) above to behave more reasonably than assuming
misspelled English in most cases, since most conlangs use more
'continental' letter values. Failing that you can fall back to
reading out the Unicode names.
This said, and although I'm a sworn enemy of HTML in email, it
seems strange to me that in this day you can not put a
'pronunciation' attribute on an HTML element, with some Unicode
IPA as value, and have a screenreader read out an approximation
of the transcription. Surely one could have a skilled phonetician
record a realization of each IPA character and then have a
computer string together those soundbites when it sees text
flagged as IPA? And why shouldn't it be possible to define a
makeshift synthesizer for any language -- even a conlang! -- by
mapping its letters and letter combinations to IPA symbols? After
all most languages have a much more predictable letter-to-sound
mapping than English!
/bpj
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Constructed Languages List [mailto:conl...@listserv.brown.edu] On
> Behalf Of Padraic Brown
> Sent: Monday, May 27, 2013 4:15 AM
> To: conl...@listserv.brown.edu
> Subject: Re: Screen Reader Semantics, was: Senjecan orthography: weak vowels.
>
> --- On Sun, 5/26/13, Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews <goldyemo...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Too bad they don't have a way for screen readers like Jaws
>> somehow tell what writers mean in messages.
>
> Now that would be a technological miracle indeed. I can sée the screen,
> and sometimes don't know what the writer meant in the message! :)
>
>> I guess it could also depend on the person's wordage. That
>> could also mislead a message listener.
>
> It seemed to me that one issue there was the presumption that every word
> encountered by the reader is an English word. And therefore words that
> appear in Senjecas, or any other conlang, and possibly other natural
> languages as well, get treated as wrongly spelled.
>
>> Apparently, a new Jaws is coming out, as they've just posted
>> some webinars, which I've signed up for, the webinars will
>> discuss new features.
>
> Indeed. I hope that they take into account user feedback! Some of these
> issues are things you could probably address to their developers for
> use in future versions.
>
>> Speaking of webinars, I think their should be conlang
>> webinars.
>
> There's certainly no technical reason why this can't be done. Live chats
> and so forth are old hat for the community. Perhaps future LCCs (Language
> Creation Conferences) could involve such capabilities.
>
> Padraic
>
>>
>> Mellissa Green
>>
>>
>> @GreenNovelist
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Constructed Languages List [mailto:conl...@listserv.brown.edu]
>> On Behalf Of Padraic Brown
>> Sent: Sunday, May 26, 2013 6:06 AM
>> To: conl...@listserv.brown.edu
>> Subject: Re: Senjecan orthography: weak vowels.
>>
>> --- On Wed, 5/22/13, Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews <goldyemo...@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Where did he have different spellings?
>>
>> His original list contained eight different renderings of
>> the same word:
>>
>> sanółtęvi; sanółt ë vi; sanółt ə vi; sanółt ɘ
>> vi; sanółt ε vi; sanółt ɜ vi;
>> sanółt э vi; sanółt є vi
>>
>> They all involve different possible spellings for the third
>> vowel.
>>
>> I just downloaded the demo of Jaws to hear what you're
>> hearing. I got a
>> lot of "misspelled" errors in that list. When it spoke the
>> pertinent
>> vowels at all, they all sounded equally murky to me. It
>> doesn't just
>> read what it sees, but it tries to interpret what it sees in
>> terms of
>> English.
>>
>> That is a potential problem for anyone, such as yourself,
>> trying to read
>> non-English words in a message like this.
>>
>>> It read the message fine.
>>
>> To be honest, if you were unable to even realise that there
>> were
>> differences, and having just listened to the list read by
>> Jaws I can
>> commiserate, I think it's handling the message in a way
>> other than how the
>> writer intended!
>>
>> I will say this: if I had to listen to that synthesised
>> voice for more
>> than about twelve and a half minutes, I think it would drive
>> me absolutely
>> bonkers and I'd probably end up throwing the whole computer
>> right out
>> the window.
>>
>> In the short time I interacted with the system, I think I
>> spent more time
>> listening to irrelevant header information than I did to
>> listening to the
>> message itself. Clearly, the highly visual online world does
>> not translate
>> well for anyone using a screen reader of this sort!
>>
>> Padraic
>>
>>> They just updated the screen reader. Why do you ask?
>>>
>>> Mellissa Green
>>>
>>>
>>> @GreenNovelist
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Constructed Languages List [mailto:conl...@listserv.brown.edu]
>>> On Behalf Of Adam Walker
>>> Sent: Wednesday, May 22, 2013 2:23 PM
>>> To: conl...@listserv.brown.edu
>>> Subject: Re: Senjecan orthography: weak vowels.
>>>
>>> What does your screen reader do with Chralie's
>> different
>>> spellings since
>>> they are just different letters to spell exactly the
>> same
>>> word?
>>>
>>> Adam
>>>
>>> On Wed, May 22, 2013 at 7:10 PM, Nicole Valicia
>>> Thompson-Andrews <
>>> goldyemo...@gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> What's 8? I like 1 through 4.
>>>>
>>>> Mellissa Green
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> @GreenNovelist
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Constructed Languages List [mailto:conl...@listserv.brown.edu]
>>> On
>>>> Behalf Of C. Brickner
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, May 22, 2013 2:08 PM
>>>> To: conl...@listserv.brown.edu
>>>> Subject: Re: Senjecan orthography: weak vowels.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks. I apologize to all for the large
>>> gaps. It didn't look that way
>>>> when I typed it!
>>>> Charlie
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> I think I like 2, 5 and 8 best. Of course
>> you are
>>> the one who has to live
>>>> with the choice you make (until you change your
>>> mind!!), but any of them
>>>> could work. I don't think any of them would
>> be
>>> particularly difficult in
>>>> cursive. Cyrilic cursive gets by with a
>> whole
>>> bunch of letters that face
>>>> the "wrong" way.
>>>>
>>>> Adam
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, May 22, 2013 at 2:52 PM, C. Brickner
>> <tepeyach...@embarqmail.com
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I don’t think I’ll ever be satisfied with
>> the
>>> orthography for Senejcas!
>>>>> I’m trying to work with seven criteria:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> 1. It can be written in cursive.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> 2. No diacritics.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> 3. No digraphs.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> 4. Latin letters.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> 5. Composed characters for ease in
>> replacing.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> 6. Some semblance of correspondence between
>> the
>>> grapheme and some phoneme
>>>>> somewhere.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> 7. My own esthetic sense.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Obviously, there has to be some give and
>>> take. My current problem is
>>>> how
>>>>> to represent what are known in Senjecas as
>> “weak
>>> vowels”: I/ɪ; ə/@; and
>>>>> ʊ/U.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> My first plan was to use ï,
>>> ë, and ü. As I am
>> using
>>> single and double
>>>>> acute accents to indicate tone, the diareses
>> added
>>> more clutter above the
>>>>> letters, not to mention the occasional
>> turned
>>> comma above to indicate
>>>>> palatalization and caron to indicate
>>> labialization.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Then I went to symbols without diacritics:
>> ı, ə,
>>> and y. I really like
>>>>> <ı>, but I don’t
>> care
>>> for <y> for that sound.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Currently I am using the three vowels with
>> an
>>> ogonek: į, ę ,ų. Not bad,
>>>>> but there are
>> diacritics. At
>>> least they’re below the letters.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> The other day I was reading her translation
>> of the
>>> Babel story and I
>>>>> noticed that Ms. Sotomayor had used several
>> IPA
>>> symbols in her
>>>> orthography.
>>>>> It didn’t look bad at
>>> all! If a conlanger of her caliber
>> could
>>> do
>>>> it, I
>>>>> figured I could use non-Latin letters also.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Therefore, I can return to the use of the
>>> <ı>.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I have thought of two possibilities for
>>> ʊ/U. I like the idea of the
>>>>> turned m <ɯ>. In
>> cursive,
>>> the <i> would have one point, the <u> two
>>>>> points, and the <ɯ> three
>>> points. Another possibility is v with
>> hook
>>>> <ʋ>.
>>>>> However, how is it written
>> in
>>> cursive? Maybe with some mark above
>> it
>>>> as
>>>>> is done in cursive Fraktur to distinguish
>>> <u> from <n>.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I am having the most difficulty with the
>> schwa.
>>> Here are some
>>>>> possibilities using the adverb
>> ‘sanółtęvi’,
>>> tonight.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> 1. sanółtęvi
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> 2. sanółt ë vi
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> 3. sanółt ə vi
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> 4. sanółt ɘ vi
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> 5. sanółt ε vi
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> 6. sanółt ɜ vi
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> 7. sanółt э vi
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> 8. sanółt є vi
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> #s 1 and 2 are eliminated because of the
>>> diacritics. #3 is a
>>>>> possibility; it is used in some natlangs
>>> . #4 is not pleasing
>>>>> esthetically. I see #5 as
>> being
>>> easy to write in cursive, #6 not so
>>>> much.
>>>>> I am leaning toward
>>> #8. It’s not unattractive and it can
>> be
>>> written
>>>> in
>>>>> cursive like #5. Influenced by the
>> numeral
>>> 3, I suppose, I see #7 as
>>>>> backward.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Opinions, suggestions, comments, etc.,
>> welcomed.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Charlie
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>
Messages in this topic (16)
________________________________________________________________________
1c. Re: Screen Reader Semantics, was: Senjecan orthography: weak vowels.
Posted by: "Padraic Brown" elemti...@yahoo.com
Date: Mon May 27, 2013 3:13 pm ((PDT))
--- On Mon, 5/27/13, Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews <goldyemo...@gmail.com>
wrote:
> the developers usually take into account user feedback. How do I phrase
> my suggestion about the conlang issue?
I wouldn't bother trying to explain conlangs to them. You could say that it
would be a nice feature for Jaws to simply read what's in the email / file
/ etc. If the words are in Spanish or Latin or Cantonese, you would rather
be able to hear some approximation of what is written, rather than having
the synthesizer decide that the words are misspelled.
I suppose you could also try to get them to support IPA characters as well
as all those nice Unicode "foreign" characters. This way you could
conceivably listen to a web page in Russian or Greek or Arabic (or some
conlang!) and not have to listen to the Voice endlessly repeat "misspelled
misspelled misspelled!"
> Mellissa Green
Padraic
Messages in this topic (16)
________________________________________________________________________
1d. Re: Screen Reader Semantics, was: Senjecan orthography: weak vowels.
Posted by: "Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews" goldyemo...@gmail.com
Date: Mon May 27, 2013 4:00 pm ((PDT))
Thanks,guys.
Mellissa Green
@GreenNovelist
-----Original Message-----
From: Constructed Languages List [mailto:conl...@listserv.brown.edu] On
Behalf Of Padraic Brown
Sent: Monday, May 27, 2013 3:13 PM
To: conl...@listserv.brown.edu
Subject: Re: Screen Reader Semantics, was: Senjecan orthography: weak
vowels.
--- On Mon, 5/27/13, Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews <goldyemo...@gmail.com>
wrote:
> the developers usually take into account user feedback. How do I phrase
> my suggestion about the conlang issue?
I wouldn't bother trying to explain conlangs to them. You could say that it
would be a nice feature for Jaws to simply read what's in the email / file
/ etc. If the words are in Spanish or Latin or Cantonese, you would rather
be able to hear some approximation of what is written, rather than having
the synthesizer decide that the words are misspelled.
I suppose you could also try to get them to support IPA characters as well
as all those nice Unicode "foreign" characters. This way you could
conceivably listen to a web page in Russian or Greek or Arabic (or some
conlang!) and not have to listen to the Voice endlessly repeat "misspelled
misspelled misspelled!"
> Mellissa Green
Padraic
Messages in this topic (16)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
2. Seeking Feedback On The Ancestral Case System
Posted by: "Brent Scarcliff" scarcl...@outlook.com
Date: Mon May 27, 2013 1:16 pm ((PDT))
As
some of you know, I have been working for sometime on a proto-language
(code-named Ancestral) which had a quite simple but rather unusual event
structure. I am particularly interested in any natural language analogues you
may
know of, any example sentences you can think of that might �break� this
structure, and/or your thoughts on what kinds of directions this system might
have evolved in Ancestral�s daughter languages.
For
lack of a better word, Ancestral assigned its five proclitic �case� markers
sequentially, as follows:
�i=
Distal Cause (Indirect Subject/Agent, Causer, Ablative)
�e=
Proximal Cause (Direct Subject/Agent, Causee, Instrumental)
�a=
Verb
�o=
Proximal Effect (Direct Object/Patient, Accusative, Perlative)
�u=
Distal Effect (Indirect Object/Patient, Benefactive, Allative)
I
apologize for the lack of vocabulary in the following example sentences, but my
dictionary of proto-forms isn�t quite ready for primetime. In the interest of
clarity, I�ve also left out all modifiers:
�i=woman
�a=dance
�The
woman danced.�
�The
woman (inspired herself to) dance.�
�e=woman
�a=dance
�The
woman danced.�
�(Something
inspired) the woman to dance.�
�i=water
�e=woman �a=drink
�From
the water the woman drank.�
�The
water inspired the woman to drink.�
�i=flower
�e =woman �a=string �o=lei �u=daughter.
�From
the flowers the woman strung a lei for her daughter.�
�The
flowers inspired the woman to string a lei for her daughter.�
�i=beach
�e=woman �a=walk �o=upstream �u=waterfall.
�From
the beach the woman walked up the stream to the waterfall.�
�i=woman
�e=net �a=catch �o=fish �u=daughter.
�The
woman used a net to catch fish for her daughter.�
�i=woman
�e=daughter �a=help-weave �o=mat.
�The
woman helped her daughter weave a mat.�
�i=woman �e=daughter �a=teach-dance
�The
woman taught her daughter to dance.�
�i=fish
�a=show �u=woman
�The
fish showed (its image) to the woman.�
�The
woman saw the fish.�
�i=woman
�i=navigator
�The
woman (will be) a navigator (in the distant future).�
�e=woman
�e=navigator
�The
woman (will be) a navigator (in the near future).�
�a=woman
�a=navigator
�The
woman (is) a navigator (now).�
�o=woman
�o=navigator
�The
woman (was) a navigator (in the near past).�
�u=woman
�u=navigator
�The
woman was a navigator (in the distant past).�
Ancestral�s
comitative, comparative, genitive, locative, etc. constructions were expressed
by adjectival or adverbial phrases.
From
poking around conlang.org, I see this system bears some resemblance to those of
Okuna and Tatari Faran in its source and goal orientation. I like to think the
Ancestral system grew quite naturally out of Ancestral culture, including its
�fiveness� (as expressed, for example, in its pervasive Indo-European-type
i-e-a-o-u
ablaut system) and its emphasis on cause and effect (as expressed in its
frequent
causative-type constructions and Bengali-type indirect subjects). For further
background
on Ancestral, you can have a look-see at www.earthylanguage.com
Thanks!
Messages in this topic (1)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
3a. Conlangers in the Seattle area?
Posted by: "Scott Hamilton" la...@tezhme.net
Date: Mon May 27, 2013 7:59 pm ((PDT))
I am hoping to gather together conlangers in the Seattle area to meet
face-to-face, talk shop, that sort of thing. Who here is in or near
Seattle, WA USA?
Scott
Messages in this topic (2)
________________________________________________________________________
3b. Re: Conlangers in the Seattle area?
Posted by: "Cosman246" yashtuls...@gmail.com
Date: Mon May 27, 2013 8:02 pm ((PDT))
I am , being a UW student
-Yash Tulsyan
On Mon, May 27, 2013 at 7:49 PM, Scott Hamilton <la...@tezhme.net> wrote:
> I am hoping to gather together conlangers in the Seattle area to meet
> face-to-face, talk shop, that sort of thing. Who here is in or near
> Seattle, WA USA?
>
> Scott
>
Messages in this topic (2)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
4.1. Re: Introduction
Posted by: "Alex Fink" 000...@gmail.com
Date: Mon May 27, 2013 10:10 pm ((PDT))
Finally getting this out of the queue:
On Tue, 30 Apr 2013 09:54:44 -0700, Brent Scarcliff <scarcl...@outlook.com>
wrote:
>Thank your for your very thoughtful reply, Alex. I always enjoy your comments,
>so I was particularly pleased to read your response. I'll do my best to
>briefly address your points below, although at this stage not much is set in
>stone!
>
>> > As for my project, it's the reconstruction of 'Ancestral'
>> > (working title), a proto-language spoken along the Indian Rim from East
>> > Africa
>> > to Sumatra in the Late Pleistocene.
>>
>> Well, I'm finding it hard to buy that scenario.
>
>Of course, the easy out is that the language in question is a mythical rather
>than a prehistoric artefact, so be prepared to suspend your disbelief!
How is it mythical? In particular, in what context: among its culture? among
the daughter cultures? only out-of-world?
Should I take that to mean it was perhaps not actually used in the form you
describe it?
>I have thought about many of the objections you raise, however, so bear with
>me. Prior to this exchange, I've only had to convince myself, and I tend to
>find myself very convincing!
Hah!
>> As far as we know, in deep early history before large political and economic
>> structures were around, people only tended to have social interactions, of
>> the sort regular enough to guard against divergent developments and maintain
>> a common language, with a few hundred people of their village or tribe or
>> whatnot. So it would already be noteworthy, symptomatic of a recent
>> takeover or episode of expansion or something, to find the same variety of
>> language being spoken in like twenty different villages; to have the same
>> language spoken over an arc of over ten thousand kilometers beggars belief,
>> for me.
>
>I think "as far as we know" are the operative words. I would suggest it is
>quite a leap to project what we know about the past ten thousand years of
>language use to the past one or two hundred thousand.
Well, okay, but I'd suggest it's less of a leap to do that than to imagine
there to have been any particular concrete difference between now and then!
>Even within the fields of archaeology and physical anthropology, where the
>evidence is (literally) much more solid, there have been major surprises in
>recent years (Denisovans, for example). In many respects, what's surprising is
>not how many languages exist today, but how few.
Indeed.
>Clearly, there have been many periods of leveling that have left little or no
>trace in the record.
But, in accord with what you were just saying, I'd expect these periods of
levelling to have been mostly modern, once you had peoples with the technology
and political organization required for rapid expansion in territories that
were already peopled. (I suppose the idea that these are exclusively modern is
disputable in the same way. But even if I'm wrong about important particular
examples, the overall pàce of techno-cultural change does seem to have been
increasing.)
Given you're talking about things old enough to have left few traces, are you
talking somehow about how few families exist today?
Well, àre there in fact few families? I firmly believe most lumpers are just
wrong...
Even if there are few families, this might not be anomalous; some families will
die out with time just for reasons of the long-term behavior of stochastic
speciation processes, even without any sort of big disruptions.
>That said, I should have written "SOMEWHERE along the Indian Rim." I was
>conflating the imagined maximum extent of the eventual dialect chain with the
>often vexing question of the homeland, which I'm inclined to place at the
>southern tip of India. Imagine this: a people with an overwhelming set of
>cultural and technological advantages (including the ritual and symbolic use
>of language and sail-powered watercraft), enjoying favorable climactic
>conditions and facing no significant barriers to expansion. The analogies
>aren't perfect, but think Austronesian, with Sri Lanka playing the part of
>Taiwan or (later) Polynesian, with Sri Lanka playing the part of Tonga-Samoa.
Mm, that makes more sense. Are you imagining that the territory the Ancestral
speakers spread to cover was even peopled at all before their arrival? (That
was true for much of the modern-day Austronesian territory, I thought.)
>> I've seen arguments advanced that early humans should've had a much slower
>> linguistic rate of change than we moderns do: for instance, JBR
>> <http://www.xibalba.demon.co.uk/jbr/pleisto.html> ascribes this to a
>> cultural shunning of innovation. IMO that's bang on realistic for a
>> Pleistocene culture, overall, but I'm not sure I believe this implication of
>> it: what we observe nowadays is that sound change in progress, to take an
>> example, is sufficiently unconscious that it takes special efforts, like a
>> writing system, or the work of the Vedic phonologists (or the existence of
>> already diverged dialects!) to even nòtice it, so that one might be able to
>> shun it. Small cultures with great emphasis on adhesion to traditional ways
>> don't seem to escape it.
>Your points are well-taken, but I do imagine there might be strong cultural
>reasons (including a ritual writing system and a well-developed trade network,
>for example) for deliberately resisting the tendency you describe. Of course,
>that tendency wins out, or we wouldn't be talking about the comparative method!
As far as the examples I know of attest, cultural reasons like that càn
preserve a form of a language, but they still can't prevent language change!
So what happens is more or less diglossia, the emergence of a maintained
archaising one and a changed popular one side by side.
>> Your line about development in isolation leading to regularity also doesn't
>> really ring true for me. As I understand it, the correlation is actually
>> that large, well-connected languages are more regular, because all those
>> second-language learners smooth over the difficult bits; little secluded
>> languages, without this pressure, are free to twist themselves into all
>> kinds of intricacies.
>For reasons I won't elaborate on here, a high degree of regularity is
>important to this project, so a bigger help to me would be to deliberately
>suspend your disbelief and argue why a natural human language might be very
>conservative!
I am interested. Why is the regularity so important?
I'm suspendin' as hard as I can, but trying to handwave an over-regular conlang
into a world is sadly kinda overdone. Some people say, for instance, "my
conlang is, fiction-internally, a successful auxlang which displaced the
original natlangs of its world", but as far as I know, no Earthly auxlang has
ever succeeded in displacing anything nor even in becoming the primary language
of a town or suchlike. Perhaps an auxlang might take over the world given long
timescales, the way any language might, but such timescales destroy regularity.
Among a species which is supposed to be a facsimile of humans the story would
probably be similar. So thère the suspension fails for me, e.g.
>> > and its case system (which marks
>> > the
>> > initiative, causative, assistive, permissive, instructive and instrumentive
>> > roles in the same manner).
>>
>> Yes, the case system is an awesome deployment of your scale. Kudos.
>
>That's music to my ears. I've spent a lot of time trying to figure out how the
>case system might work. The result isn't naturalistic, but to me it does seem
>human.
I haven't taken in what you said on the new thread yet, but since you've
compared your system to Tatari Faran, you might look at
http://listserv.brown.edu/archives/cgi-bin/wa?A2=conlang;f3d5fbd4.1305D
where I tried to put the TF case system in normal naturalist terms based on
some examples of Teoh's. I mostly achieved a sloppy success, except for verbs
of motion.
>> As for the phonology: when I looked at your chart of IPA values, some of
>> them surprised me. The biggest mismatch was that what I was expecting to be
>> [K], you seem to take as ingressivity! Also things like palatal vs.
>> retroflex, epiglottal vs. glottal.
>> Then there's the use of superscripts, as if every consonant can be used as a
>> secondary articulation: I have no idea what things like e.g. "[g] with a
>> [t]-ish secondary articulation" or "[S] with a [b]-ish secondary
>> articulation" is. This makes it hard to interpret.
>
>I should have noted that I haven't updated the proposed phonetic values of the
>complex consonants for a very long time. Since this is a proto-language we're
>talking about, the actual realization of each cluster is only relevant in the
>context of the yet-to-be described daughter languages. What does seem clear is
>that those clusters arose from simple syncope: VCVCV (the canonical
>pre-Ancestral word shape, where that first vowel was a clitic or a prefix and
>that last vowel was stressed) became VCCV and then those clusters began
>simplifying. In other words, /agta/ is just [agta], forgetting the
>lenis-fortis distinction for a moment. The injectives (and many other
>oddities) you mention have been reassigned to a special but large class of
>onomatopoeic and mimetic words, which I haven't got into yet.
>What I'm thinking about is precisely how these clusters might have evolved in
>different ways and how this isolating language with its straightforward case
>system mightevolve into, for example, a polysynthetic language. Fun stuff.
Well, I do like playing around with sound change (and other change, though
whole sketches of such don't pop into my head quite the way sound changes do).
Show me a repaired table once you've got one, or better yet some text samples,
or better yet a lexicon with indications of textual frequency, and HERE
Alex
Messages in this topic (70)
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________________________________________________________________________
5a. Re: Suggestions of linguistically realistic movies.
Posted by: "Leonardo Castro" leolucas1...@gmail.com
Date: Tue May 28, 2013 4:03 am ((PDT))
I've just finished watching Amistad, that has English, Spanish and
Mende. As it's a more recent story, I guess they didn't reconstruct
anything.
Até mais!
Leonardo
2013/5/26 Leonardo Castro <leolucas1...@gmail.com>:
> Thanks to everyone for the suggestions!
>
> 2013/5/24 Dustfinger Batailleur <dustfinge...@gmail.com>:
>> The Passion had ecclesiastical Latin instead of Vulgar Latin spoken by the
>> Romans, so it's not exactly accurate.
>
> Yes, I had already heard about it and that it was a conscious choice
> of Mel Gibson.
>
>>
>>
>> On 24 May 2013 20:41, Leonardo Castro <leolucas1...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Do you have any suggestions of good linguistically realistic movies,
>>> that is, movies that portray the languages or dialects as close as
>>> possible to the ones used in the time and location of the story?
>>>
>>> Maybe "The Passion of the Christ" is a good example of what I'm
>>> describing, and "Agora" is a good counter-example (with people in
>>> Roman Egypt speaking English).
>>>
>>> Até mais!
>>>
>>> Leonardo
>>>
Messages in this topic (13)
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________________________________________________________________________
6a. THEORY: How to be beautiful?
Posted by: "Leonardo Castro" leolucas1...@gmail.com
Date: Tue May 28, 2013 4:12 am ((PDT))
What makes a language be considered beautiful?
Why is Italian (and sometimes French) considered the most beautiful
language by so many people?
Até mais!
Leonardo
Messages in this topic (6)
________________________________________________________________________
6b. Re: THEORY: How to be beautiful?
Posted by: "Allison Swenson" jlon...@gmail.com
Date: Tue May 28, 2013 5:06 am ((PDT))
Being Finnish, if your name is JRR Tolkien. Otherwise, I'm not too sure! I
do have a further question, though--do speakers of all languages find
Italian/French beautiful, or is it just IE speakers?
On Tuesday, May 28, 2013, Leonardo Castro wrote:
> What makes a language be considered beautiful?
>
> Why is Italian (and sometimes French) considered the most beautiful
> language by so many people?
>
> Até mais!
>
> Leonardo
>
Messages in this topic (6)
________________________________________________________________________
6c. Re: THEORY: How to be beautiful?
Posted by: "Nina-Kristine Johnson" ninakristi...@gmail.com
Date: Tue May 28, 2013 5:43 am ((PDT))
Hiya!
My guess is that some people associate France/Italy with *Romance*. In the
US: there is a stereotype of Italians and French being *Lovers*.
Of course, this hypothesis is probably very wrong.
The other is that if you listen to someone speak the language: it seems to *
flow* (at least to the uneducated ears of Americans). A *Romantic Language*
.
In a sense: its sort of like how Americans think the *British *accent is
sexy.* M*ostly, they think of only the stereotypical* London* accent..I
know from spending a bit of time in Cornwall that there are a multitude of
accents; nevermind my stepdad is from Sheffield and sports a Yorkshire
accent. I won't go into details of my linguistic/anthropological
discoveries.
Did I go off the topic on that one? :(
Cheers!,
Kristine
On 28 May 2013 04:11, Leonardo Castro <leolucas1...@gmail.com> wrote:
> What makes a language be considered beautiful?
>
> Why is Italian (and sometimes French) considered the most beautiful
> language by so many people?
>
> Até mais!
>
> Leonardo
>
Messages in this topic (6)
________________________________________________________________________
6d. Re: THEORY: How to be beautiful?
Posted by: "Jyri Lehtinen" lehtinen.j...@gmail.com
Date: Tue May 28, 2013 6:28 am ((PDT))
I guess it boils down to history and the situations in which you hear the
language most often. For example, if you mostly hear Italian at opera, you
might be inclined to consider the language particularly beautiful and
refined. Similarly French being associated with medieval romances and
courtly love affects popular attitudes towards it. Also notice how the
languages of current of historical foes are often considered unpleasant.
I've personally never really understood calling languages very ugly or
nice. For me personal opinions can only explain a small part of it and
people mostly seem to echo what other people say about the languages.
Moreover, when you expose yourself to a number of speech registers of any
given language, it becomes less evident which one should you use as the
standard of niceness for that language.
-Jyri
2013/5/28 Leonardo Castro <leolucas1...@gmail.com>
> What makes a language be considered beautiful?
>
> Why is Italian (and sometimes French) considered the most beautiful
> language by so many people?
>
> Até mais!
>
> Leonardo
>
Messages in this topic (6)
________________________________________________________________________
6e. Re: THEORY: How to be beautiful?
Posted by: "Sam Stutter" samjj...@gmail.com
Date: Tue May 28, 2013 6:46 am ((PDT))
I wouldn't even say stereotypical London accent - I think the majority of
Americans think of two British accents "posh British" (almost Received
Pronunciation) and "cockney", plus maybe "Scottish" if they get their geography
right.
With Britain being associated with the established and urbane through the
C19th, RP had good reason to be though of as conferring respectability and
intelligence. The association would have died if it had not been for the
continued influence of British pop-culture and the UK "brand" that we literally
"sell" abroad :)
>From my intense studies of rubbish TV I would say that italian accents are
>more associated with seduction than actual romance - you know - the slightly
>slimy italian man who slides up and steals the protagonist's girl but doesn't
>actually respect her.
As for French, I would say "sexy" rather than romantic but then again I can't
actually think of an accent I would say is "romantic". Maybe it's just me.
Hell, let's say my accent is romantic. Maybe we can market Manchester as the
city of luuuuurve. Sorry, as the city of /lʊf/
Sam Stutter
samjj...@gmail.com
"No e na'l cu barri"
On 28 May 2013, at 13:43, Nina-Kristine Johnson <ninakristi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hiya!
>
> My guess is that some people associate France/Italy with *Romance*. In the
> US: there is a stereotype of Italians and French being *Lovers*.
>
> Of course, this hypothesis is probably very wrong.
>
> The other is that if you listen to someone speak the language: it seems to *
> flow* (at least to the uneducated ears of Americans). A *Romantic Language*
> .
>
> In a sense: its sort of like how Americans think the *British *accent is
> sexy.* M*ostly, they think of only the stereotypical* London* accent..I
> know from spending a bit of time in Cornwall that there are a multitude of
> accents; nevermind my stepdad is from Sheffield and sports a Yorkshire
> accent. I won't go into details of my linguistic/anthropological
> discoveries.
>
> Did I go off the topic on that one? :(
>
> Cheers!,
> Kristine
>
>
> On 28 May 2013 04:11, Leonardo Castro <leolucas1...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> What makes a language be considered beautiful?
>>
>> Why is Italian (and sometimes French) considered the most beautiful
>> language by so many people?
>>
>> Até mais!
>>
>> Leonardo
>>
Messages in this topic (6)
________________________________________________________________________
6f. Re: THEORY: How to be beautiful?
Posted by: "J. 'Mach' Wust" j_mach_w...@shared-files.de
Date: Tue May 28, 2013 7:04 am ((PDT))
I remember being puzzled by a passage in Jean Paul where he laments
that Old High German used to be much more beautiful than New High
German. But then, he explained his criteria: Fricatives are ugly,
and vowels are beautiful. Indeed, Jean Paul advocated for
eliminating the linking s in German compounds such as "Volkswagen"
precisely because he deemed the s to be ugly (also, of course,
superfluous). While such criteria are certainly debatable, I would
expect that more people would agree with "vowels are beautiful" than
with "obstruent clusters are beautiful".
Italian is more sonorous than English or German, especially since it
has a very limited range of possible final consonants. Personally,
another criterion by which I would consider Italian to be beautiful
(and Finnish and Japanese) is the rhythmical variation between long
and short sounds.
-- grüess mach
On Tue, 28 May 2013 08:11:41 -0300, Leonardo Castro wrote:
>What makes a language be considered beautiful?
>
>Why is Italian (and sometimes French) considered the most beautiful
>language by so many people?
>
>Até mais!
>
>Leonardo
Messages in this topic (6)
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