There are 5 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1.1. Re: Is Esperanto Indo-European?
From: Juanma Barranquero
1.2. Re: Is Esperanto Indo-European?
From: Leonardo Castro
1.3. Re: Is Esperanto Indo-European?
From: Jim Henry
1.4. Re: Is Esperanto Indo-European?
From: Juanma Barranquero
1.5. Re: Is Esperanto Indo-European?
From: Leonardo Castro
Messages
________________________________________________________________________
1.1. Re: Is Esperanto Indo-European?
Posted by: "Juanma Barranquero" lek...@gmail.com
Date: Thu Jun 6, 2013 4:33 am ((PDT))
On Thu, Jun 6, 2013 at 1:08 PM, Leonardo Castro <leolucas1...@gmail.com> wrote:
> AFAIK there was little influence of non-Indo-European languages in
> E-o, so it's a descendant of Indo-European languages in this sense.
>
> BTW, the notion that a language can't be, say, Indo-European and
> Afro-Asiatic at the same time comes from a strict tree model, and I
> see no reason for it to be strict.
I would have thought that, for a language X to be in family Y, it
would be necessary to prove that changes from proto-Y to X are
(generically speaking) systematic. I don't think Esperanto satisfies
that condition, as its vocabulary is extracted from several quite
different sources.
J
Messages in this topic (36)
________________________________________________________________________
1.2. Re: Is Esperanto Indo-European?
Posted by: "Leonardo Castro" leolucas1...@gmail.com
Date: Thu Jun 6, 2013 5:12 am ((PDT))
2013/6/6 Juanma Barranquero <lek...@gmail.com>:
> On Thu, Jun 6, 2013 at 1:08 PM, Leonardo Castro <leolucas1...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> AFAIK there was little influence of non-Indo-European languages in
>> E-o, so it's a descendant of Indo-European languages in this sense.
>>
>> BTW, the notion that a language can't be, say, Indo-European and
>> Afro-Asiatic at the same time comes from a strict tree model, and I
>> see no reason for it to be strict.
>
> I would have thought that, for a language X to be in family Y, it
> would be necessary to prove that changes from proto-Y to X are
> (generically speaking) systematic.
Good point! I guess this is generally possible because we usually can
distinguish superstratum from substratum. It might fail for creoles
and pidgins, so maybe it's all a matter of whether or not the
influence of each language is close to 50% (maybe the level of
inovation should also be considered).
English [θ] systematically changes to [t] and [æ] to [ɛ] in Brazilian
Portuguese. Besides, now it's relativelly common to hear Brazilian
people pronouncing English sound of [ʌ] which is generally not present
in Brazilian Portuguese (only in some dialects). AFAIK, a language can
also influence the syntax of another. So, if Brazilian language
gradually changes from Portuguese to Brazilian English by means of
constant syntactic, phonological and lexical changes, is it possible
that in some point it will be hard to decide if it's Romance or
Germanic?
> I don't think Esperanto satisfies
> that condition, as its vocabulary is extracted from several quite
> different sources.
>
> J
Messages in this topic (36)
________________________________________________________________________
1.3. Re: Is Esperanto Indo-European?
Posted by: "Jim Henry" jimhenry1...@gmail.com
Date: Thu Jun 6, 2013 5:26 am ((PDT))
On Thu, Jun 6, 2013 at 8:12 AM, Leonardo Castro <leolucas1...@gmail.com> wrote:
> also influence the syntax of another. So, if Brazilian language
> gradually changes from Portuguese to Brazilian English by means of
> constant syntactic, phonological and lexical changes, is it possible
> that in some point it will be hard to decide if it's Romance or
> Germanic?
English is generally considered to be unambiguously a Germanic
language, as the Norman-French (and other) loanwords are pretty much
all content words -- the core pronouns, conjunctions, and other
grammatical particles are all Germanic.
On the other hand, some languages have borrowed pronouns and other
"core" words, so it's not impossible. But it's a lot less likely, and
for it to happen to 50% or more of a language's core particles would
be even more unlikely.
--
Jim Henry
http://www.pobox.com/~jimhenry/
http://www.jimhenrymedicaltrust.org
Messages in this topic (36)
________________________________________________________________________
1.4. Re: Is Esperanto Indo-European?
Posted by: "Juanma Barranquero" lek...@gmail.com
Date: Thu Jun 6, 2013 7:21 am ((PDT))
On Thu, Jun 6, 2013 at 2:12 PM, Leonardo Castro <leolucas1...@gmail.com> wrote:
> English [θ] systematically changes to [t] and [æ] to [ɛ] in Brazilian
> Portuguese. Besides, now it's relativelly common to hear Brazilian
> people pronouncing English sound of [ʌ] which is generally not present
> in Brazilian Portuguese (only in some dialects). AFAIK, a language can
> also influence the syntax of another. So, if Brazilian language
> gradually changes from Portuguese to Brazilian English by means of
> constant syntactic, phonological and lexical changes, is it possible
> that in some point it will be hard to decide if it's Romance or
> Germanic?
Spanish lexicon has two big non-Romance influences (about 10% of words
are of semitic origin, and there's also many germanic words from the
visigoth period); also, its relatively simple phonology is said to
have been strongly influenced by that of basque (an isolate). Yet I
don't think anyone would have the least trouble to classify Spanish as
a Romance language.
J
Messages in this topic (36)
________________________________________________________________________
1.5. Re: Is Esperanto Indo-European?
Posted by: "Leonardo Castro" leolucas1...@gmail.com
Date: Thu Jun 6, 2013 7:36 am ((PDT))
2013/6/6 Juanma Barranquero <lek...@gmail.com>:
> On Thu, Jun 6, 2013 at 2:12 PM, Leonardo Castro <leolucas1...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> English [θ] systematically changes to [t] and [æ] to [ɛ] in Brazilian
>> Portuguese. Besides, now it's relativelly common to hear Brazilian
>> people pronouncing English sound of [ʌ] which is generally not present
>> in Brazilian Portuguese (only in some dialects). AFAIK, a language can
>> also influence the syntax of another. So, if Brazilian language
>> gradually changes from Portuguese to Brazilian English by means of
>> constant syntactic, phonological and lexical changes, is it possible
>> that in some point it will be hard to decide if it's Romance or
>> Germanic?
>
> Spanish lexicon has two big non-Romance influences (about 10% of words
> are of semitic origin, and there's also many germanic words from the
> visigoth period); also, its relatively simple phonology is said to
> have been strongly influenced by that of basque (an isolate). Yet I
> don't think anyone would have the least trouble to classify Spanish as
> a Romance language.
It's still far from 50% of alien influence on lexicon, phonology and,
what is said to be more important, syntax. Maybe the only good
examples are really creole and pidgins (and so they have special
names), and that's why many (most?) people don't classify them into
language families.
>
> J
Messages in this topic (36)
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