There are 15 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1.1. Re: Is Esperanto Indo-European?
From: Jörg Rhiemeier
1.2. Re: Is Esperanto Indo-European?
From: Leonardo Castro
1.3. Re: Is Esperanto Indo-European?
From: Dustfinger Batailleur
1.4. Re: Is Esperanto Indo-European?
From: Padraic Brown
1.5. Re: Is Esperanto Indo-European?
From: Padraic Brown
1.6. Re: Is Esperanto Indo-European?
From: George Corley
2a. Re: Regional Pronounciations
From: G. van der Vegt
3. My conlang DO NOT READ WITHOUT UNICODE
From: Jack Johnson
4a. Sold here / for sale / on sale / on sale here
From: Scott Hlad
4b. Re: Sold here / for sale / on sale / on sale here
From: Sam Stutter
4c. Re: Sold here / for sale / on sale / on sale here
From: David Peterson
4d. Re: Sold here / for sale / on sale / on sale here
From: Scott Hlad
4e. Re: Sold here / for sale / on sale / on sale here
From: C. Brickner
4f. Re: Sold here / for sale / on sale / on sale here
From: Douglas Koller
4g. Re: Sold here / for sale / on sale / on sale here
From: Adam Walker
Messages
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1.1. Re: Is Esperanto Indo-European?
Posted by: "Jörg Rhiemeier" joerg_rhieme...@web.de
Date: Thu Jun 6, 2013 7:52 am ((PDT))
Hallo conlangers!
On Thursday 06 June 2013 01:59:15 Padraic Brown wrote:
> --- On Wed, 6/5/13, Leonardo Castro <leolucas1...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >> >> Can a conlang be classified into the conventional natlang
families?
> > >> >
> > >> > There's been some discussion of this here or on AUXLANG in the
past.
> > >
> > > It was here, some time last year. "Indo-European" is defined by
> > > descent from a common ancestor through an unbroken continuity of
> > > speakers.
> >
> > Don't Modern Hebrew and Sanskrit pose a problem to this
> > definition?
>
> No more than Latin or any other ancient language that finds new life in a
> new age among people that never spoke it natively. Me, I don't place so
> much emphasis on the "unbroken continuity of speakers" aspect of the
> definition. After all, Cornish remains a Celtic language even though it's
> continuity of speakers was broken for some decades between Mrs. Pentreath
> and the modern revival. Revived Hebrew and Modern Latin or Modern
> Sanskrit are clearly modified though descended from the ancient languages
> spoken by their original communities. Heck, even *ancient* Sanskrit was
> modified by that great conlanger, Panini! ;))
Indeed. "Unbroken continuity" was a mistake. It depends on
the *kind* of breakage, rather.
> Tweakage of these "modernised" or "revived" languages notwithstanding,
> they are clearly direct descendants of older natural languages. (English
> and French are also tweaked to some degree -- both have standard and
> educated forms that are consciously maintained and preserved from normal
> change, but they are not considered to be any less Germanic or Romance
> for it.)
Yes, the line between standardized natlangs and conlangs is
not all that easy to draw!
> E-o may well be on its way to becoming a naturalised conlang, but
> can't be said to be a direct descendant of any language. It was, after
> all, the creation from whole cloth of its singular inventor.
Yes. And it does not really matter much where the author got
his whole cloth from, though one could indeed say that it was
*based* on several languages from four different branches of
Indo-European, which is not the same as saying that it *is*
Indo-European.
--
... brought to you by the Weeping Elf
http://www.joerg-rhiemeier.de/Conlang/index.html
"Bêsel asa Éam, a Éam atha cvanthal a cvanth atha Éamal." - SiM 1:1
Messages in this topic (42)
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1.2. Re: Is Esperanto Indo-European?
Posted by: "Leonardo Castro" leolucas1...@gmail.com
Date: Thu Jun 6, 2013 8:52 am ((PDT))
This issue must have some similarities with the use of human genetic
clustering to classify people into races. I have read that some
studies showed that most Ethiopian people "cluster" with Caucasians,
which means that they are more genetically similar to this group
(defined by "clustering" other peoples). So, if someone define races
using a strict tree model, Ethiopian is in the branch "White" because
they can't belong to two races in a tree model.
Até mais!
Leonardo
2013/6/6 Leonardo Castro <leolucas1...@gmail.com>:
> 2013/6/6 Juanma Barranquero <lek...@gmail.com>:
>> On Thu, Jun 6, 2013 at 2:12 PM, Leonardo Castro <leolucas1...@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> English [θ] systematically changes to [t] and [æ] to [É] in Brazilian
>>> Portuguese. Besides, now it's relativelly common to hear Brazilian
>>> people pronouncing English sound of [Ê] which is generally not present
>>> in Brazilian Portuguese (only in some dialects). AFAIK, a language can
>>> also influence the syntax of another. So, if Brazilian language
>>> gradually changes from Portuguese to Brazilian English by means of
>>> constant syntactic, phonological and lexical changes, is it possible
>>> that in some point it will be hard to decide if it's Romance or
>>> Germanic?
>>
>> Spanish lexicon has two big non-Romance influences (about 10% of words
>> are of semitic origin, and there's also many germanic words from the
>> visigoth period); also, its relatively simple phonology is said to
>> have been strongly influenced by that of basque (an isolate). Yet I
>> don't think anyone would have the least trouble to classify Spanish as
>> a Romance language.
>
> It's still far from 50% of alien influence on lexicon, phonology and,
> what is said to be more important, syntax. Maybe the only good
> examples are really creole and pidgins (and so they have special
> names), and that's why many (most?) people don't classify them into
> language families.
>
>>
>> J
Messages in this topic (42)
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1.3. Re: Is Esperanto Indo-European?
Posted by: "Dustfinger Batailleur" dustfinge...@gmail.com
Date: Thu Jun 6, 2013 8:54 am ((PDT))
The problem with that is that humans have two ancestors, which allows the
mixing of lineages. Languages, too, can have a multitude of source
languages.
On 6 June 2013 11:52, Leonardo Castro <leolucas1...@gmail.com> wrote:
> This issue must have some similarities with the use of human genetic
> clustering to classify people into races. I have read that some
> studies showed that most Ethiopian people "cluster" with Caucasians,
> which means that they are more genetically similar to this group
> (defined by "clustering" other peoples). So, if someone define races
> using a strict tree model, Ethiopian is in the branch "White" because
> they can't belong to two races in a tree model.
>
> Até mais!
>
> Leonardo
>
>
> 2013/6/6 Leonardo Castro <leolucas1...@gmail.com>:
> > 2013/6/6 Juanma Barranquero <lek...@gmail.com>:
> >> On Thu, Jun 6, 2013 at 2:12 PM, Leonardo Castro <leolucas1...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >>
> >>> English [θ] systematically changes to [t] and [æ] to [É] in Brazilian
> >>> Portuguese. Besides, now it's relativelly common to hear Brazilian
> >>> people pronouncing English sound of [Ê] which is generally not present
> >>> in Brazilian Portuguese (only in some dialects). AFAIK, a language can
> >>> also influence the syntax of another. So, if Brazilian language
> >>> gradually changes from Portuguese to Brazilian English by means of
> >>> constant syntactic, phonological and lexical changes, is it possible
> >>> that in some point it will be hard to decide if it's Romance or
> >>> Germanic?
> >>
> >> Spanish lexicon has two big non-Romance influences (about 10% of words
> >> are of semitic origin, and there's also many germanic words from the
> >> visigoth period); also, its relatively simple phonology is said to
> >> have been strongly influenced by that of basque (an isolate). Yet I
> >> don't think anyone would have the least trouble to classify Spanish as
> >> a Romance language.
> >
> > It's still far from 50% of alien influence on lexicon, phonology and,
> > what is said to be more important, syntax. Maybe the only good
> > examples are really creole and pidgins (and so they have special
> > names), and that's why many (most?) people don't classify them into
> > language families.
> >
> >>
> >> J
>
Messages in this topic (42)
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1.4. Re: Is Esperanto Indo-European?
Posted by: "Padraic Brown" elemti...@yahoo.com
Date: Thu Jun 6, 2013 8:58 am ((PDT))
--- Leonardo Castro <leolucas1...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Tweakage of these "modernised" or "revived" languages notwithstanding,
> > they are clearly direct descendants of older natural languages.
> > (English and French are also tweaked to some degree -- both have
> > standard and educated forms that are consciously maintained and
> > preserved from normal change, but they are not considered to be any
> > less Germanic or Romance for it.) E-o may well be on its way to
> > becoming a naturalised conlang, but can't be said to be a direct
> > descendant of any language. It was, after all, the creation from whole
> > cloth of its singular inventor.
>
> AFAIK there was little influence of non-Indo-European languages in
> E-o, so it's a descendant of Indo-European languages in this sense.
Well, no. There was little influence of non-IE languages in Avantmannish,
but that doesn't make it a direct descendant of IE either, even though it
qvacks much like a Germanic language! E-o was a created language, as is
Avantiamannish and a whole host of other languages that behave much like
IE languages.
> BTW, the notion that a language can't be, say, Indo-European and
> Afro-Asiatic at the same time comes from a strict tree model, and I
> see no reason for it to be strict.
I'm not sure how a language would be both A-A and I-E at the same time.
Unless you're positing some midway family that descends sisterwise from
some common ancestor of both A-A and I-E?
Or unless one is descended from the other...
--- On Thu, 6/6/13, Jörg Rhiemeier <joerg_rhieme...@web.de> wrote:
> > > > It was here, some time last year. "Indo-European" is defined by
> > > > descent from a common ancestor through an unbroken continuity of
> > > > speakers.
>
> > > Don't Modern Hebrew and Sanskrit pose a problem to this
> > > definition?
>
> > No more than Latin or any other ancient language that finds new life
> > in a new age among people that never spoke it natively. Me, I don't
> > place so much emphasis on the "unbroken continuity of speakers"
> > aspect of the definition. After all, Cornish remains a Celtic
> > language even though it's continuity of speakers was broken for some
> > decades between Mrs. Pentreath and the modern revival. Revived Hebrew
> > and Modern Latin or Modern Sanskrit are clearly modified though
> > descended from the ancient languages spoken by their original
> > communities. Heck, even *ancient* Sanskrit was modified by that great
> > conlanger, Panini! ;))
>
> Indeed. "Unbroken continuity" was a mistake. It depends on the *kind*
> of breakage, rather.
Right. If the breakage is one of time and a later group simply starts
learning what is known of the language, then I don't see an issue. I
guess if someone wants to start talking Gaulish, a langauge for which we
have little knowledge, then the language that ends up being learned must
be a heavily reconstructed language. I wouldn't call that language a
direct descendant of Gaulish so much as a Celtic conlang based on Gaulish;
I'd also say that the continuity is well and truly broken in that instance!
> > Tweakage of these "modernised" or "revived" languages notwithstanding,
> > they are clearly direct descendants of older natural languages.
> > (English and French are also tweaked to some degree -- both have
> > standard and educated forms that are consciously maintained and
> > preserved from normal change, but they are not considered to be any
> > less Germanic or Romance for it.)
>
> Yes, the line between standardized natlangs and conlangs is
> not all that easy to draw!
Sure! I've said a time or two that Classical Latin is a kind of conlang.
A group project to be sure.
> > E-o may well be on its way to becoming a naturalised conlang, but
> > can't be said to be a direct descendant of any language. It was, after
> > all, the creation from whole cloth of its singular inventor.
>
> Yes. And it does not really matter much where the author got
> his whole cloth from, though one could indeed say that it was
> *based* on several languages from four different branches of
> Indo-European, which is not the same as saying that it *is*
> Indo-European.
Yes.
Padraic
Messages in this topic (42)
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1.5. Re: Is Esperanto Indo-European?
Posted by: "Padraic Brown" elemti...@yahoo.com
Date: Thu Jun 6, 2013 4:58 pm ((PDT))
--- On Thu, 6/6/13, Leonardo Castro <leolucas1...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> So, if Brazilian language gradually changes from Portuguese to
> >> Brazilian English by means of constant syntactic, phonological and
> >> lexical changes, is it possible that in some point it will be hard to
> >> decide if it's Romance or Germanic?
I think it would be much more likely for Brasilians to simply adopt
English. I don't think the above scenario is terribly likely. Anyway,
at the point where Portuguese has changed in not only lexicon, but also
in phonology AND grammar AND syntax into English, I think it safe to
say that that Portuguese no longer exists.
> > Spanish lexicon has two big non-Romance influences
> (about 10% of words
> > are of semitic origin, and there's also many germanic
> words from the
> > visigoth period); also, its relatively simple phonology
> is said to
> > have been strongly influenced by that of basque (an
> isolate). Yet I
> > don't think anyone would have the least trouble to
> classify Spanish as
> > a Romance language.
>
> It's still far from 50% of alien influence on lexicon,
> phonology and,
> what is said to be more important, syntax. Maybe the only
> good
> examples are really creole and pidgins (and so they have
> special
> names), and that's why many (most?) people don't classify
> them into
> language families.
Syntax is a key, I think. What language family does this gem belong to? --
Omni Gall es divided in tres parts, de quo il Belgas incollen un, in il ali
lâAquitanas, et in il terti esun illose quo esun appellad âCeltasâ in
sweir propri lingue et âGallasâ in nostra. Omni hise differren inter
illemses in lingue, institutes et leges. Il Garuna flumen divides il Gallas del
Aquitanas; il Matrona et Sequana dividen illem del Belgas. De omni hise, il
fortest esun il Belgas ambicause illei esun longest de Provinciar culte et
humanite; et mercators minim sepen commen ad illem, et importen illose res quo
effeminen il anime; et illei esun proximest il Germans quo incollen accruce il
Rhena, conquo illei esun contineli gerring belle. Ad quo cause, il Helvetias
omnisi superceden il Gallas in virtute, ambicause illei contenden com il
Germans in omnimost cotidianli prelles, quan illei quether repellen illem de su
propri fines oth illemses gerren belle in sweir fines. Un part de hise, quo, id
tens essed dicted, il Gallas incollen, caps
ids inition ad il flumen Rhodana; id es fined cum il flumen Garuna, il oceane
et il Belgas fines; id fines omnisi il Sequanas et il Helvetias in il flumen
Rhena, et id verges ad il septentrion. Il Belgas oriren del extreme fines de
Gallia, vergen ad il inferior part del flumen Rhena; et specten advert il
septentrion et il orienting sol. Aquitania verges del flumen Garuna ad il
Piranese monts, et ad ist part del ocean quo es proxime Hispania: id spects
ambidu il occasing sol et il septrion stelle.
Padraic
Messages in this topic (42)
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1.6. Re: Is Esperanto Indo-European?
Posted by: "George Corley" gacor...@gmail.com
Date: Thu Jun 6, 2013 6:18 pm ((PDT))
On Thu, Jun 6, 2013 at 10:52 AM, Leonardo Castro <leolucas1...@gmail.com>
wrote:
> This issue must have some similarities with the use of human genetic
> clustering to classify people into races. I have read that some
> studies showed that most Ethiopian people "cluster" with Caucasians,
> which means that they are more genetically similar to this group
> (defined by "clustering" other peoples). So, if someone define races
> using a strict tree model, Ethiopian is in the branch "White" because
> they can't belong to two races in a tree model.
>
The idea that there is any biological basis for human races is largely
debunked. About all that it's useful for is as a very rough proxy (i.e.
things like blacks being more likely to have sickle-cell anemia because
they tend to have ancestors from malaria-affected areas, though there's
certainly no causal link between Negroid features and sickle-cell).
On Thu, Jun 6, 2013 at 10:54 AM, Dustfinger Batailleur <
dustfinge...@gmail.com> wrote:
> The problem with that is that humans have two ancestors, which allows the
> mixing of lineages. Languages, too, can have a multitude of source
> languages.
I would only really consider things like creoles to have more than one
parent language. If we were to compare language change to a biological
model, it would map to the kind of evolution that occurred before thick
cell membranes developed, when single-celled organisms freely swapped genes
between each other, though they still reproduced asexually. Language is
similar -- most languages descend from a single parent, but also borrow
words and features from surrounding languages.
Messages in this topic (42)
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2a. Re: Regional Pronounciations
Posted by: "G. van der Vegt" gijsstri...@gmail.com
Date: Thu Jun 6, 2013 10:44 am ((PDT))
(Now on-list.)
Is it just me or is the freeway/highway distribution suspiciously
centered around state borders despite the relative fuzziness of the
borders? That big dot in Texas is pretty clearly Dallas.
Might be worth looking into whether the government usage in those
different states differs, because I do feel it may explain this
particular map. Possibly with the fuzziness due to the distinction
being a fairly minor one that originated when people had a large
degree of physical mobility.
On 6 June 2013 01:44, Ph. D. <p...@phillipdriscoll.com> wrote:
> Interesting maps:
>
> http://www.businessinsider.com/22-maps-that-show-the-deepest-linguistic-conflicts-in-america-2013-6
> --Ph. D.
Messages in this topic (2)
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3. My conlang DO NOT READ WITHOUT UNICODE
Posted by: "Jack Johnson" jforjackjohn...@yahoo.co.uk
Date: Thu Jun 6, 2013 2:09 pm ((PDT))
From Dutch I have used most words and grammar, and the English number
system has been relexed from Dutch. This means in my micronation's
conlang (Evidun), you see numbers like een honderd (which in Dutch is
not grammatically correct, nor is the Evidun twinti? een.
I aim to make this weird thing partly agglutivative (not like it already
is from the Dutch adjectivenoun combination situation).
HERE GOES:
CONLANGING
In this edition, 'Nieuwe nederlants' -- one Brits laugh while trying to
learn (and reform) Dutch.
Hello, 'Ik heet Jack' and I am very bored trying to learn a language in
between English and German. Worse, I know very little Dutch as it is and
already can introduce myself. If you are a conlanger, dive in! If you
are insulted by me fiddling with Dutch, please do not read.
Hallo, ik heet Jack en ik ben erg verveeld proberen om een taal tussen
Engels en Duits te leren. Erger nog, ik weet heel weinig Nederlanders
zoals het is en nu al kan me even voorstellen. Als je een spraak
bouwopzichter, duiken in! Als u beledigd door mij gehannes met
Nederlanders, alstublieft niet gelezen.
*SPELLING REFORM (alternative orthography)*
There is trouble in Dutch, more so than in English.
Why does W represent V? Get used to it. It's staying in my spelling
reform (along with pronunciation reforms, known as /nieuwe nederlants/).
I hate it, but it's staying.
DUIZEND is spelled wrong in this alternative orthography. It should be
'Dauzend'.
So ui becomes au. (au like ou in ouch but starting at a as in art rather
than a as in at).
Goede morgen (good morning) is pronounced Ghoede morghen. And to me that
is weird. See more in the next section.
About stress marks: These do not exist in Dutch AFAIK, but since some
words sound better with the wrong stress/intonation, the grave accent is
used for stress marking: 'interèsserend' (in-ter-RES-er-ent)
I SEE NO REASON for G to represent a voiced 'kh'.
A normal conversation between me and a Dutchman would start with me
saying: 'Hallo, ik ben Jack Johnson. Spreekt jij Engels?'. In my
conlang, nieuwe nederlants, that same starter would go 'Hullo, ik ben
Jack Johnson. Sprêkt jÿ Engels?' (in that sentence, ÿ is used instead of
ij to represent the same thing. In my conlang, which has two names, the
Dutch Nieuwe Nederlands, and the English Evidun, an accent like this: ô
represents what doubling the letter did in Oude nederlandse.
And 'Nieuwe' is just too fumbly to type. So in my spelling reform idea,
Nieuw is spelled with no W. This makes it easier to type. Try typing
Nieuw and then type Nieu. Simpler, eh? So no silent W's anymore.
WHAT I THINK I LEARNED FROM THE FAIL OF LEARNING DE NEDERLANDSE TAAL:
that Morgan (the English name) comes from the same root as morning (the
time of day from 4 AM to 1 PM to me (-: )
Goedemorgen also has a problem. It's the oe. But I don't care.I don't
want this to be the English orthography applied to Dutch. (That would be
gruesome (which is griezelig, among other words, in Dutch))
And that brings us to griezelig. It seems to be cognate to grisly.
I have repurposed í for the digraph 'ie'. Í is non existent in the old
orthography. This makes griezelig a less grisly grízelig. But for the
voiced kh as I described it, g^ should be used. So so far we have
G^oedemorg^en, and g^rízelig^.
Lucht is unusual. X exists as ks in oudenederlandse, so in Evidun, I
will use a h-bar ? for kh. So in weird uppercase lu?tma?t recruitment
signs, it will be something to the effect of JOIN THE LU?TMA?T
or something like that. H-bar can also be used for g^, so be aware of
context, and always use g^ for the voiced-? sound whenever possible.
So the Evidun alphabet goes:
Aa Bb Cc Dd Ee Ff Gg G^g^ Hh ?? Ii IJÿ Jj Kk Ll Mm Nn Oo Pp Qq Rr Ss Tt
Uu Vv Ww Xx Yy Y"ÿ Zz
Note IJ and Y" mean same thing and share the lowercase letter. Not
counting IJ, the total number of letters in the Evidun alphabet is: 29,
more than in either English or Dutch (the latter of which this language
is based on)
*PRONUNCIATION REFORM*
Hats off, G for g^rôt (EN big), because some Gs in this new conlang of
mine are now g as in the English gone.
At the end of words, g^ becomes this new g. So g^oed vôr jÿ to Dutchmen
who agree with my reforms (which essentially make a new language
recognisable to the Dutch as a mix of both English and Dutch), and tot
ziens to those who do not. And since goed is cognate to English good, it
is more logically pronounced the same way (ish).
The E's that end some words can be silent in this new conlang, but the E
joining goed and morgen in goedemorgen becomes a schwa, as such not
silent. In this conlang, the Dutch Z stays put for where it's a zett and
not an ess. So the old 'tot ziens' is now 'tot zíns'. Awkward eh?
And the G^ is nigh-nonexistent in Evidun (Evidun: /Nieuenederlands, of
Evidôn/)
Oe becomes ø as in Danish 'smør' (butter). Let's just say that
goedemorgen sounds like gerdmorgan with a rounded but otherwise British
'er'.
'Het' must be pronounced with an obvious H at the beginning, but not an
? (letter name ekh), because that is taking it too far.
*LANGUAGE REFORMS IN GENERAL*
There are now no grammatical genders. So 'het' becomes like English
'it', and de is *the*definite article for everything. So 'het potlôd'
becomes 'de potlôd'. And 'het is ên môí dag vandâg' (het is een mooie
dag vandaag -- it is a fine day today) has 'it' as the first word rather
than neuter 'the'.
'Of' as in Dutch carries over to Evidun (Evidun: /Evidôn, /IPA
/?v?don/), so it is equivalent to English 'or'.
The g-hardening does not apply to -dag words (dag^, mândag dinsdag^,
woensdag^, donderdag^, vrÿdag^, saterdag^, sondag^)
Sj is a 'sya' and Sz (formerly nothing) is a sh. Dz is a G as in George.
A w' is a vowel-"dubbelvê" (English W as in water)
/Is het Evidôn of Nieuenederlandse? Dit is de vrâg!/
/Heb ên goede dag^!/
*Weird made up words - Bizar geconstrueerde woorden -- Bizar
geconstruêrde wôrden*
(I am) interested -- (Ik heb) de dacht van het uur -- (Ik heb) de da?t
van de uur
*GRAMMAR ISSUES*
There are many grammatical differences between Dutch and Evidun. Evidun
has no grammatical gender, so Dutch common and neuter ("de"- en
"het"-woorden) are out the window.
*GRAMMATICAL TERM ISSUES*
'Naamwoords' stay as such (nouns), but an independent noun (a noun that
stands freely in a sentence, like the word sentence) is called a
'bevrÿdnâmwôrd' (freed nameword) rather than 'zelfstandig naamwoord'
A tag-on noun (an adjective) is called 'kleverigenâmwôrd' (sticky
nameword) rather than what the Dutch call it.
*LINGUISTIC CLASSIFICATION*
Both of:
Indo-European
o
Germanic
+
West Germanic
#
Low Franconian
*
Nederlandish (Dutch)
o
Evidun (most words come from here)
and
Indo-European
o
Germanic
+
West Germanic
#
Anglo-Frisian
*
Anglic
o
English
+
Evidun (the numbering structure specifically)
Condensed:
Indo-European, Germanic, West Germanic, Low Franconian, Nederlandish,
the lexicon of Evidun
DITTO until 3rd comma, Anglo-Frisian, Anglic, English, numbering
structure of Evidun as described in de nummerboek.
Now what follows is an English-Dutch-Evidun-Backtranslation phrasebook
(things I need to know). This should not be in print, but it is
available online at: (link here). (STOP PRESS NOW) If this is printed,
contact your publisher and make them mark future copies of this essay
'unabridged'.
To be or not to be. That is the question. (Shakespeare)-Zijn of niet te
zijn. Dat is de vraag. (Sheekspier)-Zÿn of niet zÿn. Dit is de vrâg.
(Shêkspír)
Hello, my name is Jack Johnson, I am 13 years old, and I live in Prince
George - Hallo, ik heet Jack Johnson, ik ben 13 jaar oud, en ik woon in
Prince George, «British Colombia», Canada. - Hallo, ik hêt Dzack
Dzonson, ik ben 13 jâr oud, en ik wôn in Prins Jurg^en, Brits-Columbia,
Canada.
I am bored. - Ik verveel me. -- Ik emm vervêl.
It is abundantly clear - I am mistaken. / Het is overduidelijk -- Ik
vergis me. / Het is overdaudelÿk -- Ik an vergis
I should not be constructing languages at this time of day. - Ik mag
niet, in deze tijd van de dag, worden uitvinden talen -- Ik mag^ nít, in
deze tÿd van de dag^, worden autvinden talen. - I may not, at this tide
of day, be inventing ways of talking.
Is it confusing? - Is het verwarrend? -- Is het verwarrend?
Good afternoon -- Goedemiddag -- Goede a?ternoen
Good evening -- Goedenavond -- Goede navond
Messages in this topic (1)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
4a. Sold here / for sale / on sale / on sale here
Posted by: "Scott Hlad" scotth...@telus.net
Date: Thu Jun 6, 2013 3:46 pm ((PDT))
I live in a diverse neighbourhood. If you walk along the main street you can
see signs in Mandarin, Viet Namese and Amharic. Everyday walking from the
bus I pass a sign at a halal grocery with an Amharic sign that they have a
product available that says, Sold here. One could also say on sale here
which at least in the version of English I speak is not the same as on
sale and again different from for sale.
When I think about how that would work in a conlang, I try to envision what
part of speech the word sold is in sold here.
In French if someone were using the for sale it would be à vende. But
how the other phrases would be in French, I have no idea.
So how does this work in other natlangs and conlangs?
Scotto
Messages in this topic (7)
________________________________________________________________________
4b. Re: Sold here / for sale / on sale / on sale here
Posted by: "Sam Stutter" samjj...@gmail.com
Date: Thu Jun 6, 2013 4:20 pm ((PDT))
Just, very briefly, for me "on sale" means the same as "for sale". To say that
something is being sold at a reduced price I would have to say it was "in a
sale", "discounted" or some other circumlocution.
Which has always made American TV a bit weird - when someone says "I bought it
because it was on sale" it sounds like "I bought it just because it was there"
or, dare I say it "YOLO". "I bought it because there was a sale on / it was
going cheap / etc" is what I _assume_ they actually mean.
Maybe it's one of those rightpond-leftpond things.
On 6 Jun 2013, at 11:46 PM, Scott Hlad <scotth...@telus.net> wrote:
> I live in a diverse neighbourhood. If you walk along the main street you can
> see signs in Mandarin, Viet Namese and Amharic. Everyday walking from the
> bus I pass a sign at a halal grocery with an Amharic sign that they have a
> product available that says, âSold here.â One could also say âon sale
> hereâ
> which at least in the version of English I speak is not the same as âon
> saleâ and again different from âfor saleâ.
>
>
>
> When I think about how that would work in a conlang, I try to envision what
> part of speech the word âsoldâ is in âsold hereâ.
>
>
>
> In French if someone were using the âfor saleâ it would be âÃ
> vendeâ. But
> how the other phrases would be in French, I have no idea.
>
>
>
> So how does this work in other natlangs and conlangs?
>
>
>
> Scotto
Messages in this topic (7)
________________________________________________________________________
4c. Re: Sold here / for sale / on sale / on sale here
Posted by: "David Peterson" deda...@gmail.com
Date: Thu Jun 6, 2013 4:26 pm ((PDT))
Apparently so, because to get the reading that you have there you'd have to say
"I bought it because it was for sale". You *could* get that reading with "on
sale", but the most salient reading would be that it was discounted. If it was
something that it was understood was not being sold regularly (for example
movies that are in the Disney vault), you could get the "for sale" reading
there, but in my idiolect, it's not the most salient interpretation.
David Peterson
LCS President
presid...@conlang.org
www.conlang.org
On Jun 6, 2013, at 4:20 PM, Sam Stutter <samjj...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Just, very briefly, for me "on sale" means the same as "for sale". To say
> that something is being sold at a reduced price I would have to say it was
> "in a sale", "discounted" or some other circumlocution.
>
> Which has always made American TV a bit weird - when someone says "I bought
> it because it was on sale" it sounds like "I bought it just because it was
> there" or, dare I say it "YOLO". "I bought it because there was a sale on /
> it was going cheap / etc" is what I _assume_ they actually mean.
>
> Maybe it's one of those rightpond-leftpond things.
>
> On 6 Jun 2013, at 11:46 PM, Scott Hlad <scotth...@telus.net> wrote:
>
>> I live in a diverse neighbourhood. If you walk along the main street you can
>> see signs in Mandarin, Viet Namese and Amharic. Everyday walking from the
>> bus I pass a sign at a halal grocery with an Amharic sign that they have a
>> product available that says, Sold here. One could also say on sale here
>> which at least in the version of English I speak is not the same as on
>> sale and again different from for sale.
>>
>>
>>
>> When I think about how that would work in a conlang, I try to envision what
>> part of speech the word sold is in sold here.
>>
>>
>>
>> In French if someone were using the for sale it would be à vende. But
>> how the other phrases would be in French, I have no idea.
>>
>>
>>
>> So how does this work in other natlangs and conlangs?
>>
>>
>>
>> Scotto
Messages in this topic (7)
________________________________________________________________________
4d. Re: Sold here / for sale / on sale / on sale here
Posted by: "Scott Hlad" scotth...@telus.net
Date: Thu Jun 6, 2013 6:07 pm ((PDT))
I guess I should have been more specific:
Sold here and on sale here = available for sale in this location
For sale = typically a sign for a private sale of something like a house or
a boat or car or a sale on someone else's behalf eg. Real estate sale etc.
On sale = available at a discounted price in a retail establishment
s
-----Original Message-----
From: Constructed Languages List [mailto:conl...@listserv.brown.edu] On
Behalf Of David Peterson
Sent: Thursday, June 06, 2013 5:26 PM
To: conl...@listserv.brown.edu
Subject: Re: Sold here / for sale / on sale / on sale here
Apparently so, because to get the reading that you have there you'd have to
say "I bought it because it was for sale". You *could* get that reading with
"on sale", but the most salient reading would be that it was discounted. If
it was something that it was understood was not being sold regularly (for
example movies that are in the Disney vault), you could get the "for sale"
reading there, but in my idiolect, it's not the most salient interpretation.
David Peterson
LCS President
presid...@conlang.org
www.conlang.org
On Jun 6, 2013, at 4:20 PM, Sam Stutter <samjj...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Just, very briefly, for me "on sale" means the same as "for sale". To say
that something is being sold at a reduced price I would have to say it was
"in a sale", "discounted" or some other circumlocution.
>
> Which has always made American TV a bit weird - when someone says "I
bought it because it was on sale" it sounds like "I bought it just because
it was there" or, dare I say it "YOLO". "I bought it because there was a
sale on / it was going cheap / etc" is what I _assume_ they actually mean.
>
> Maybe it's one of those rightpond-leftpond things.
>
> On 6 Jun 2013, at 11:46 PM, Scott Hlad <scotth...@telus.net> wrote:
>
>> I live in a diverse neighbourhood. If you walk along the main street
>> you can see signs in Mandarin, Viet Namese and Amharic. Everyday
>> walking from the bus I pass a sign at a halal grocery with an Amharic
>> sign that they have a product available that says, Sold here. One could
also say on sale here
>> which at least in the version of English I speak is not the same as
>> on sale and again different from for sale.
>>
>>
>>
>> When I think about how that would work in a conlang, I try to
>> envision what part of speech the word sold is in sold here.
>>
>>
>>
>> In French if someone were using the for sale it would be à vende.
>> But how the other phrases would be in French, I have no idea.
>>
>>
>>
>> So how does this work in other natlangs and conlangs?
>>
>>
>>
>> Scotto
Messages in this topic (7)
________________________________________________________________________
4e. Re: Sold here / for sale / on sale / on sale here
Posted by: "C. Brickner" tepeyach...@embarqmail.com
Date: Thu Jun 6, 2013 7:28 pm ((PDT))
For me, an American, "on sale" means "being sold at a lower price". "For sale"
means "available for purchase".
Charlie
----- Original Message -----
Just, very briefly, for me "on sale" means the same as "for sale". To say that
something is being sold at a reduced price I would have to say it was "in a
sale", "discounted" or some other circumlocution.
Which has always made American TV a bit weird - when someone says "I bought it
because it was on sale" it sounds like "I bought it just because it was there"
or, dare I say it "YOLO". "I bought it because there was a sale on / it was
going cheap / etc" is what I _assume_ they actually mean.
Maybe it's one of those rightpond-leftpond things.
On 6 Jun 2013, at 11:46 PM, Scott Hlad <scotth...@telus.net> wrote:
> I live in a diverse neighbourhood. If you walk along the main street you can
> see signs in Mandarin, Viet Namese and Amharic. Everyday walking from the
> bus I pass a sign at a halal grocery with an Amharic sign that they have a
> product available that says, âSold here.â One could also say âon sale
> hereâ
> which at least in the version of English I speak is not the same as âon
> saleâ and again different from âfor saleâ.
>
>
>
> When I think about how that would work in a conlang, I try to envision what
> part of speech the word âsoldâ is in âsold hereâ.
>
>
>
> In French if someone were using the âfor saleâ it would be âÃ
> vendeâ. But
> how the other phrases would be in French, I have no idea.
>
>
>
> So how does this work in other natlangs and conlangs?
>
>
>
> Scotto
Messages in this topic (7)
________________________________________________________________________
4f. Re: Sold here / for sale / on sale / on sale here
Posted by: "Douglas Koller" douglaskol...@hotmail.com
Date: Thu Jun 6, 2013 7:38 pm ((PDT))
> Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2013 22:28:43 -0400
> From: tepeyach...@embarqmail.com
> Subject: Re: Sold here / for sale / on sale / on sale here
> To: conl...@listserv.brown.edu
> For me, an American, "on sale" means "being sold at a lower price". "For
> sale" means "available for purchase".
But as David pointed out with his Disney vault example, "on sale" can also be
interpreted as "available for purchase" in certain contexts. "Shamrock shakes,
on sale now!" "Diana Ross tickets, on sale now." ("for sale" doesn't work here
for me). I've never had a problem discerning whether discounts were involved or
not, to the extent that I don't think I'd thought about it before today.
Kou
Messages in this topic (7)
________________________________________________________________________
4g. Re: Sold here / for sale / on sale / on sale here
Posted by: "Adam Walker" carra...@gmail.com
Date: Thu Jun 6, 2013 7:41 pm ((PDT))
You might as well give it up Scott. Your question has become YAEUT,
and there is little hope of dredging it baxk out of that hell once it
has entered. No one will pay the slightest mind to your actual
question now. They must all explore the minutiae of each and ever
English dialect sopken by any list memeber and all colse friend and
relatives out to the sixth degree of consanguinity. You might as well
wait a few weeks for this thred to die and reformulate your question
in another way in the hope that the next wording won't trigger an
immediate YAE?T.
Adam
On 6/6/13, Scott Hlad <scotth...@telus.net> wrote:
> I guess I should have been more specific:
>
> Sold here and on sale here = available for sale in this location
> For sale = typically a sign for a private sale of something like a house or
> a boat or car or a sale on someone else's behalf eg. Real estate sale etc.
> On sale = available at a discounted price in a retail establishment
>
> s
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Constructed Languages List [mailto:conl...@listserv.brown.edu] On
> Behalf Of David Peterson
> Sent: Thursday, June 06, 2013 5:26 PM
> To: conl...@listserv.brown.edu
> Subject: Re: Sold here / for sale / on sale / on sale here
>
> Apparently so, because to get the reading that you have there you'd have to
> say "I bought it because it was for sale". You *could* get that reading
> with
> "on sale", but the most salient reading would be that it was discounted. If
> it was something that it was understood was not being sold regularly (for
> example movies that are in the Disney vault), you could get the "for sale"
> reading there, but in my idiolect, it's not the most salient
> interpretation.
>
> David Peterson
> LCS President
> presid...@conlang.org
> www.conlang.org
>
> On Jun 6, 2013, at 4:20 PM, Sam Stutter <samjj...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Just, very briefly, for me "on sale" means the same as "for sale". To say
> that something is being sold at a reduced price I would have to say it was
> "in a sale", "discounted" or some other circumlocution.
>>
>> Which has always made American TV a bit weird - when someone says "I
> bought it because it was on sale" it sounds like "I bought it just because
> it was there" or, dare I say it "YOLO". "I bought it because there was a
> sale on / it was going cheap / etc" is what I _assume_ they actually mean.
>>
>> Maybe it's one of those rightpond-leftpond things.
>>
>> On 6 Jun 2013, at 11:46 PM, Scott Hlad <scotth...@telus.net> wrote:
>>
>>> I live in a diverse neighbourhood. If you walk along the main street
>>> you can see signs in Mandarin, Viet Namese and Amharic. Everyday
>>> walking from the bus I pass a sign at a halal grocery with an Amharic
>>> sign that they have a product available that says, Sold here. One
>>> could
> also say on sale here
>>> which at least in the version of English I speak is not the same as
>>> on sale and again different from for sale.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> When I think about how that would work in a conlang, I try to
>>> envision what part of speech the word sold is in sold here.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> In French if someone were using the for sale it would be à vende.
>>> But how the other phrases would be in French, I have no idea.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> So how does this work in other natlangs and conlangs?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Scotto
>
Messages in this topic (7)
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