There are 15 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1a. Re: Sold here / for sale / on sale / on sale here
From: G. van der Vegt
1b. Re: Sold here / for sale / on sale / on sale here
From: Leonardo Castro
1c. Re: Sold here / for sale / on sale / on sale here
From: George Corley
1d. Re: Sold here / for sale / on sale / on sale here
From: G. van der Vegt
1e. Re: Sold here / for sale / on sale / on sale here
From: p...@phillipdriscoll.com
1f. Re: Sold here / for sale / on sale / on sale here
From: p...@phillipdriscoll.com
1g. Re: Sold here / for sale / on sale / on sale here
From: Allison Swenson
1h. Re: Sold here / for sale / on sale / on sale here
From: Adam Walker
1i. Re: Sold here / for sale / on sale / on sale here
From: George Corley
1j. Re: Sold here / for sale / on sale / on sale here
From: MorphemeAddict
1k. Re: Sold here / for sale / on sale / on sale here
From: taliesin the storyteller
2.1. Terminology question
From: Adam Walker
2.2. Re: Terminology question
From: Matthew Boutilier
2.3. Re: Terminology question
From: Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews
3.1. Re: Is Esperanto Indo-European?
From: MorphemeAddict
Messages
________________________________________________________________________
1a. Re: Sold here / for sale / on sale / on sale here
Posted by: "G. van der Vegt" gijsstri...@gmail.com
Date: Fri Jun 7, 2013 9:21 am ((PDT))
I'm quite sure it's an idiomatic phrase based on of the additional
function of middle Dutch 'te', many functions of that preposition are
no longer used outside idiomatic phrases in modern Dutch.
As for sale vs. purchase, in English, sale is shorter (and thus more
practical) than purchase (buy is a verb whereas sale and purchase are
nouns, so could not be used in the same kind of phrasing.)
In Dutch, 'verkoop' (sell) is a direct derivative of 'koop' (buy) so
using the buy variant is shorter. In both cases, people seem to have
gone with what's convenient. Certainly the choice between 'for sale'
and 'for purchase' is more one of style rather than strict importance,
both are quite defensible.
On 7 June 2013 16:22, Njenfalgar <njenfal...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 2013/6/6 Scott Hlad <scotth...@telus.net>
>
>> I live in a diverse neighbourhood. If you walk along the main street you
>> can
>> see signs in Mandarin, Viet Namese and Amharic. Everyday walking from the
>> bus I pass a sign at a halal grocery with an Amharic sign that they have a
>> product available that says, Sold here. One could also say on sale here
>> which at least in the version of English I speak is not the same as on
>> sale and again different from for sale.
>>
>>
>>
>> When I think about how that would work in a conlang, I try to envision what
>> part of speech the word sold is in sold here.
>>
>>
>>
>> In French if someone were using the for sale it would be à vende. But
>> how the other phrases would be in French, I have no idea.
>>
>>
>>
>> So how does this work in other natlangs and conlangs?
>>
>>
>>
>> Scotto
>>
>
> In Dutch it would "te koop", which literally means "to buy" (which is the
> opposite viewpoint from most languages' "to sell"). I can't say for sure
> which part of speech "koop" is. There exists a normal "te" + infinitive
> construction in Dutch, as in "te doen" ("to-do"), but it appears the
> infinitive ending is dropped in "te koop", "te huur" ("for rent") and
> similar expressions.
>
> Greets,
> David
>
> --
> Yésináne gika asahukúka ha'u Kusikéla-Kísu yesahuwese witi nale lálu wíke
> uhu tu tinitíhi lise tesahuwese. Lise yésináne, lina, ikéwiyéwa etinizáwa
> búwubúwu niyi tutelíhi uhu yegeka.
>
> http://njenfalgar.conlang.org/
Messages in this topic (25)
________________________________________________________________________
1b. Re: Sold here / for sale / on sale / on sale here
Posted by: "Leonardo Castro" leolucas1...@gmail.com
Date: Fri Jun 7, 2013 9:39 am ((PDT))
2013/6/6 Scott Hlad <scotth...@telus.net>:
> I guess I should have been more specific:
>
> Sold here and on sale here = available for sale in this location
por-BR: "Temos ...." ("We have ....") or "Vendemos ..." ("We sold ...").
> For sale = typically a sign for a private sale of something like a house or
> a boat or car or a sale on someone else's behalf eg. Real estate sale etc.
por-BR: "À venda."
> On sale = available at a discounted price in a retail establishment
por-BR: "Em liquidação."
>
> s
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Constructed Languages List [mailto:conl...@listserv.brown.edu] On
> Behalf Of David Peterson
> Sent: Thursday, June 06, 2013 5:26 PM
> To: conl...@listserv.brown.edu
> Subject: Re: Sold here / for sale / on sale / on sale here
>
> Apparently so, because to get the reading that you have there you'd have to
> say "I bought it because it was for sale". You *could* get that reading with
> "on sale", but the most salient reading would be that it was discounted. If
> it was something that it was understood was not being sold regularly (for
> example movies that are in the Disney vault), you could get the "for sale"
> reading there, but in my idiolect, it's not the most salient interpretation.
>
> David Peterson
> LCS President
> presid...@conlang.org
> www.conlang.org
>
> On Jun 6, 2013, at 4:20 PM, Sam Stutter <samjj...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Just, very briefly, for me "on sale" means the same as "for sale". To say
> that something is being sold at a reduced price I would have to say it was
> "in a sale", "discounted" or some other circumlocution.
>>
>> Which has always made American TV a bit weird - when someone says "I
> bought it because it was on sale" it sounds like "I bought it just because
> it was there" or, dare I say it "YOLO". "I bought it because there was a
> sale on / it was going cheap / etc" is what I _assume_ they actually mean.
>>
>> Maybe it's one of those rightpond-leftpond things.
>>
>> On 6 Jun 2013, at 11:46 PM, Scott Hlad <scotth...@telus.net> wrote:
>>
>>> I live in a diverse neighbourhood. If you walk along the main street
>>> you can see signs in Mandarin, Viet Namese and Amharic. Everyday
>>> walking from the bus I pass a sign at a halal grocery with an Amharic
>>> sign that they have a product available that says, Sold here. One could
> also say on sale here
>>> which at least in the version of English I speak is not the same as
>>> on sale and again different from for sale.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> When I think about how that would work in a conlang, I try to
>>> envision what part of speech the word sold is in sold here.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> In French if someone were using the for sale it would be à vende.
>>> But how the other phrases would be in French, I have no idea.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> So how does this work in other natlangs and conlangs?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Scotto
Messages in this topic (25)
________________________________________________________________________
1c. Re: Sold here / for sale / on sale / on sale here
Posted by: "George Corley" gacor...@gmail.com
Date: Fri Jun 7, 2013 9:46 am ((PDT))
On Fri, Jun 7, 2013 at 11:21 AM, G. van der Vegt <gijsstri...@gmail.com>wrote:
> I'm quite sure it's an idiomatic phrase based on of the additional
> function of middle Dutch 'te', many functions of that preposition are
> no longer used outside idiomatic phrases in modern Dutch.
>
> As for sale vs. purchase, in English, sale is shorter (and thus more
> practical) than purchase (buy is a verb whereas sale and purchase are
> nouns, so could not be used in the same kind of phrasing.)
Purchase can also be a verb. "I purchased a baseball bat yesterday."
Also, sale focuses on the selling, puchase focuses on the buying. To "make
a sale" is to sell something, and to "make a purchase" is to buy something
-- the meanings are not equivalent.
Messages in this topic (25)
________________________________________________________________________
1d. Re: Sold here / for sale / on sale / on sale here
Posted by: "G. van der Vegt" gijsstri...@gmail.com
Date: Fri Jun 7, 2013 9:57 am ((PDT))
The point isn't that purchase isn't a verb but that buy is not a noun.
Sale is always a noun. And I know sale and purchase aren't identical,
but for phrases indicating something is available to be bought, it
doesn't matter whether you're advertising that you're selling it or
that others can buy it.
And the fact that some languages do the latter while English does the
former reinforces that point. You cut out the part of my e-mail that
the paragraph you're needlessly critical of led up to, since I return
to that point in the last paragraph.
I may have been able to word it better, I originally had the message
structured slightly differently so that point was more obvious, but
could you in the future please take into account the entire message
instead of criticising points I'm expanding upon and clarifying the
very next paragraph?
On 7 June 2013 18:46, George Corley <gacor...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Fri, Jun 7, 2013 at 11:21 AM, G. van der Vegt <gijsstri...@gmail.com>wrote:
>
>> I'm quite sure it's an idiomatic phrase based on of the additional
>> function of middle Dutch 'te', many functions of that preposition are
>> no longer used outside idiomatic phrases in modern Dutch.
>>
>> As for sale vs. purchase, in English, sale is shorter (and thus more
>> practical) than purchase (buy is a verb whereas sale and purchase are
>> nouns, so could not be used in the same kind of phrasing.)
>
>
> Purchase can also be a verb. "I purchased a baseball bat yesterday."
>
> Also, sale focuses on the selling, puchase focuses on the buying. To "make
> a sale" is to sell something, and to "make a purchase" is to buy something
> -- the meanings are not equivalent.
Messages in this topic (25)
________________________________________________________________________
1e. Re: Sold here / for sale / on sale / on sale here
Posted by: p...@phillipdriscoll.com
Date: Fri Jun 7, 2013 9:58 am ((PDT))
George Corley <gacor...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > ... but I can at least comment for my natlang. (AFMNL?)
> >
>
> What does AFMNL mean?
Â
I assume it means "As For My Nat-Lang." In the past, some
members of this list have used "AFMCL" meaning "As For
My Con-Lang."
Â
--Ph. D.
Â
Messages in this topic (25)
________________________________________________________________________
1f. Re: Sold here / for sale / on sale / on sale here
Posted by: p...@phillipdriscoll.com
Date: Fri Jun 7, 2013 10:02 am ((PDT))
Leonardo Castro <leolucas1...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > For sale = typically a sign for a private sale of something like
a house or
> > a boat or car or a sale on someone else's behalf eg. Real estate sale etc.
>
> por-BR: "Ã venda."
Â
Doesn't Spanish use "se vende" for this? (= it sells itself.)
Â
--Ph. D.
Â
Messages in this topic (25)
________________________________________________________________________
1g. Re: Sold here / for sale / on sale / on sale here
Posted by: "Allison Swenson" jlon...@gmail.com
Date: Fri Jun 7, 2013 10:12 am ((PDT))
I've seen that quite commonly on houses in Mexico (along with "se renta"
for "for rent").
On Fri, Jun 7, 2013 at 1:02 PM, <p...@phillipdriscoll.com> wrote:
> Leonardo Castro <leolucas1...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> > > For sale = typically a sign for a private sale of something like a
> house or
>
>> > a boat or car or a sale on someone else's behalf eg. Real estate sale
>> etc.
>> por-BR: "À venda."
>>
>
>
> Doesn't Spanish use "se vende" for this? (= it sells itself.)
>
> --Ph. D.
>
Messages in this topic (25)
________________________________________________________________________
1h. Re: Sold here / for sale / on sale / on sale here
Posted by: "Adam Walker" carra...@gmail.com
Date: Fri Jun 7, 2013 10:23 am ((PDT))
I see it all the time here in Dallas, one needn't go to Mexico.
Adam
On Fri, Jun 7, 2013 at 12:12 PM, Allison Swenson <jlon...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I've seen that quite commonly on houses in Mexico (along with "se renta"
> for "for rent").
>
> On Fri, Jun 7, 2013 at 1:02 PM, <p...@phillipdriscoll.com> wrote:
>
> > Leonardo Castro <leolucas1...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >>
> >> > > For sale = typically a sign for a private sale of something like a
> > house or
> >
> >> > a boat or car or a sale on someone else's behalf eg. Real estate sale
> >> etc.
> >> por-BR: "À venda."
> >>
> >
> >
> > Doesn't Spanish use "se vende" for this? (= it sells itself.)
> >
> > --Ph. D.
> >
>
Messages in this topic (25)
________________________________________________________________________
1i. Re: Sold here / for sale / on sale / on sale here
Posted by: "George Corley" gacor...@gmail.com
Date: Fri Jun 7, 2013 10:23 am ((PDT))
On Fri, Jun 7, 2013 at 11:57 AM, G. van der Vegt <gijsstri...@gmail.com>wrote:
> The point isn't that purchase isn't a verb but that buy is not a noun.
> Sale is always a noun. And I know sale and purchase aren't identical,
> but for phrases indicating something is available to be bought, it
> doesn't matter whether you're advertising that you're selling it or
> that others can buy it.
>
Buy can be a noun, but it's fairly restricted to set phrases like "a good
buy", so it is true that it wouldn't occur in this circumstance.
> And the fact that some languages do the latter while English does the
> former reinforces that point. You cut out the part of my e-mail that
> the paragraph you're needlessly critical of led up to, since I return
> to that point in the last paragraph.
>
> I may have been able to word it better, I originally had the message
> structured slightly differently so that point was more obvious, but
> could you in the future please take into account the entire message
> instead of criticising points I'm expanding upon and clarifying the
> very next paragraph?
I'm sorry to offend you. My intent was simply to correct you on a point of
fact. I was considering that you might not be a native speaker and thus
possibly not aware of the use of "purchase" as a verb. I do hope you will
not be equally offended by my small note on "buy" earlier in this reply --
it is meant only as a sort of footnote. I might have been clearer if you
had included Njenfalgar's email, so that I had another cue that you were
talking about his phrase. I read these conversations piecemeal, and don't
always go back to previous emails. Also, and email of my own occurs in my
Gmail conversation between Njefalgar and yourself, adding some distance in
the conversation that may have confused me.
Messages in this topic (25)
________________________________________________________________________
1j. Re: Sold here / for sale / on sale / on sale here
Posted by: "MorphemeAddict" lytl...@gmail.com
Date: Fri Jun 7, 2013 11:32 am ((PDT))
"Buy" can be a noun: "This new model of pickup truck is a good buy."
Similarly, "read" can be a noun: "If you want a good read, try this novel
by my favorite author."
stevo
On Fri, Jun 7, 2013 at 12:57 PM, G. van der Vegt <gijsstri...@gmail.com>wrote:
> The point isn't that purchase isn't a verb but that buy is not a noun.
> Sale is always a noun. And I know sale and purchase aren't identical,
> but for phrases indicating something is available to be bought, it
> doesn't matter whether you're advertising that you're selling it or
> that others can buy it.
>
> And the fact that some languages do the latter while English does the
> former reinforces that point. You cut out the part of my e-mail that
> the paragraph you're needlessly critical of led up to, since I return
> to that point in the last paragraph.
>
> I may have been able to word it better, I originally had the message
> structured slightly differently so that point was more obvious, but
> could you in the future please take into account the entire message
> instead of criticising points I'm expanding upon and clarifying the
> very next paragraph?
>
> On 7 June 2013 18:46, George Corley <gacor...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Fri, Jun 7, 2013 at 11:21 AM, G. van der Vegt <gijsstri...@gmail.com
> >wrote:
> >
> >> I'm quite sure it's an idiomatic phrase based on of the additional
> >> function of middle Dutch 'te', many functions of that preposition are
> >> no longer used outside idiomatic phrases in modern Dutch.
> >>
> >> As for sale vs. purchase, in English, sale is shorter (and thus more
> >> practical) than purchase (buy is a verb whereas sale and purchase are
> >> nouns, so could not be used in the same kind of phrasing.)
> >
> >
> > Purchase can also be a verb. "I purchased a baseball bat yesterday."
> >
> > Also, sale focuses on the selling, puchase focuses on the buying. To
> "make
> > a sale" is to sell something, and to "make a purchase" is to buy
> something
> > -- the meanings are not equivalent.
>
Messages in this topic (25)
________________________________________________________________________
1k. Re: Sold here / for sale / on sale / on sale here
Posted by: "taliesin the storyteller" taliesin-conl...@nvg.org
Date: Fri Jun 7, 2013 1:24 pm ((PDT))
On 06/07/2013 04:43 PM, George Corley wrote:
> On Fri, Jun 7, 2013 at 5:36 AM, <taliesin-conl...@nvg.org> wrote:
>
>> On 2013-06-07 07:15, H. S. Teoh wrote:
>>
>>> On Thu, Jun 06, 2013 at 10:00:52PM -0500, George Corley wrote:
>>>
>>>> In an attempt to salvage this somewhat, I can't really comment too
>>>> much on the "for sale"/"on sale" distinction in other languages, /../
>>>
>> ... but I can at least comment for my natlang. (AFMNL?)
>
> What does AFMNL mean?
As For My NatLang =)
>> Norwegian:
>>
>> Something discounted is "på salg".
>>
>> Something that is posible to buy is "til salgs". I think the final 's' is
>> a frozen genitive. Ads in the newspapers for selling stuff often start with
>> "til salgs".
>
> Interesting. It would be interesting to see what other uses these
> prepositions have.
"på" is used everywhere, it is a bit of a fallback. It means "on".
"til" means "to" and is quite often used with that fossilized s... "til
kvelds" (for supper), "til bords" (at table), "til sengs" (to bed), "til
sjøss" (at sea).
t.
Messages in this topic (25)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
2.1. Terminology question
Posted by: "Adam Walker" carra...@gmail.com
Date: Fri Jun 7, 2013 9:28 am ((PDT))
I have an affix slot on my verbs in Gravgaln which can be filled with one
of three affixes, -qgaÅ (reciprocal), -khezh (reflexive), and -zem
(together).
dd'ugqgaÅ = to hit each other
dd'ugkhezh = to hit oneself
dd'ugzem = to both (or all) hit (something) (simultaneously?)
I can't think what to label this slot so as to conveniently talk about it
in the grammar. *Is* there a term that lumps these three ideas?
Adam who is slowly building this language...
Messages in this topic (55)
________________________________________________________________________
2.2. Re: Terminology question
Posted by: "Matthew Boutilier" bvticvlar...@gmail.com
Date: Fri Jun 7, 2013 9:35 am ((PDT))
all i can think of is *comitative*, which suggests 'going (or, maybe even
enduring/doing something) together.'
matt
On Fri, Jun 7, 2013 at 11:28 AM, Adam Walker <carra...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I have an affix slot on my verbs in Gravgaln which can be filled with one
> of three affixes, -qgaÅ (reciprocal), -khezh (reflexive), and -zem
> (together).
>
> dd'ugqgaÅ = to hit each other
>
> dd'ugkhezh = to hit oneself
>
> dd'ugzem = to both (or all) hit (something) (simultaneously?)
>
> I can't think what to label this slot so as to conveniently talk about it
> in the grammar. *Is* there a term that lumps these three ideas?
>
> Adam who is slowly building this language...
>
Messages in this topic (55)
________________________________________________________________________
2.3. Re: Terminology question
Posted by: "Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews" goldyemo...@gmail.com
Date: Fri Jun 7, 2013 1:32 pm ((PDT))
That's what I'm figured. Connative sonds good to me.
Mellissa Green
@GreenNovelist
-----Original Message-----
From: Constructed Languages List [mailto:conl...@listserv.brown.edu] On Behalf
Of Matthew Boutilier
Sent: Friday, June 7, 2013 12:33 PM
To: conl...@listserv.brown.edu
Subject: Re: Terminology question
all i can think of is *comitative*, which suggests 'going (or, maybe even
enduring/doing something) together.'
matt
On Fri, Jun 7, 2013 at 11:28 AM, Adam Walker <carra...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I have an affix slot on my verbs in Gravgaln which can be filled with one
> of three affixes, -qgaÅ (reciprocal), -khezh (reflexive), and -zem
> (together).
>
> dd'ugqgaÅ = to hit each other
>
> dd'ugkhezh = to hit oneself
>
> dd'ugzem = to both (or all) hit (something) (simultaneously?)
>
> I can't think what to label this slot so as to conveniently talk about it
> in the grammar. *Is* there a term that lumps these three ideas?
>
> Adam who is slowly building this language...
>
Messages in this topic (55)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
3.1. Re: Is Esperanto Indo-European?
Posted by: "MorphemeAddict" lytl...@gmail.com
Date: Fri Jun 7, 2013 11:21 am ((PDT))
It doesn't seem like a big stretch of the meaning of "descended" to apply
it to Esperanto from IE. Only the mechanism of descent is different.
Instead of a natural progression of mostly unconscious usage by many people
over the years, one person picked and chose various elements of various
languages, along with some ad hoc creations of his own, and made a coherent
whole of it.
So, even though Esperanto is not IE in the sense that French or Russian is,
it could still be considered IE in this slightly different way.
stevo
On Tue, Jun 4, 2013 at 7:14 PM, Jim Henry <jimhenry1...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Tue, Jun 4, 2013 at 7:09 PM, Leonardo Castro <leolucas1...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > Can a conlang be classified into the conventional natlang families?
>
> There's been some discussion of this here or on AUXLANG in the past.
> The consensus seems to be that "Indo-European" is a *genetic* term,
> and only languages *descended* from proto-IE are Indo-European in the
> strict sense. Conlangs, however much vocabulary they borrow from a
> given natlang or group of natlangs, aren't descended from it in the
> way natural daughter languages are.
>
> And just judging by resemblance to Indo-European languages, Esperanto
> is IE in vocabulary, and to a large extent in syntax, but arguably not
> so much in morphology.
>
> --
> Jim Henry
> http://www.pobox.com/~jimhenry/
> http://www.jimhenrymedicaltrust.org
>
Messages in this topic (46)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links
<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/conlang/
<*> Your email settings:
Digest Email | Traditional
<*> To change settings online go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/conlang/join
(Yahoo! ID required)
<*> To change settings via email:
conlang-nor...@yahoogroups.com
conlang-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com
<*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
conlang-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com
<*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
------------------------------------------------------------------------
