There are 9 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1a. Re: Wisconsin Public Radio: Central Time
From: Padraic Brown
2a. Creoles
From: Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews
2b. Re: Creoles
From: MorphemeAddict
2c. Re: Creoles
From: Roger Mills
3a. Rolling your R's
From: H. S. Teoh
3b. Re: Rolling your R's
From: James Kane
3c. Re: Rolling your R's
From: BPJ
3d. Re: Rolling your R's
From: taliesin the storyteller
3e. Re: Rolling your R's
From: Roger Mills
Messages
________________________________________________________________________
1a. Re: Wisconsin Public Radio: Central Time
Posted by: "Padraic Brown" elemti...@yahoo.com
Date: Tue Jul 16, 2013 7:33 pm ((PDT))
Good job sir! Wasn't able to listen in during the broadcast, but did check out
the archive. A very positive interview that went well beyond the "what the
heck are you people smoking" sort of question one might dread.
Padraic
----- Original Message -----
> From: Wm Annis <wm.an...@gmail.com>
> To: conl...@listserv.brown.edu
> Cc:
> Sent: Sunday, 14 July 2013, 16:18
> Subject: [CONLANG] Wisconsin Public Radio: Central Time
>
> I'm going to be on Wisconsin Public Radio tomorrow (Monday, July 15)
> from 4:45-5:00pm (central time, both the time zone and the name of the
> show), talking about Invented Languages.
>
> http://www.wpr.org/centraltime/
>
> If you don't live in WI, or have a radio, you can live listen online at
> http://www.wpr.org/webcasting/live.cfm — pick "WPR's Ideas
> Network."
> The show will also be archived for later listening.
>
> --
> William S. Annis
> www.aoidoi.org • www.scholiastae.org
>
Messages in this topic (4)
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2a. Creoles
Posted by: "Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews" goldyemo...@gmail.com
Date: Tue Jul 16, 2013 9:31 pm ((PDT))
Whatt does it mean to mix languages? Ais it word-borrowing?
Mellissa Green
@GreenNovelist
Messages in this topic (3)
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2b. Re: Creoles
Posted by: "MorphemeAddict" lytl...@gmail.com
Date: Tue Jul 16, 2013 9:33 pm ((PDT))
My understanding is that it means taking the lexicon from one language
(primarily) and the grammar from another (primarily).
stevo
On Wed, Jul 17, 2013 at 12:30 AM, Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews <
goldyemo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Whatt does it mean to mix languages? Ais it word-borrowing?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Mellissa Green
>
>
>
>
>
> @GreenNovelist
>
>
>
Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________
2c. Re: Creoles
Posted by: "Roger Mills" romi...@yahoo.com
Date: Wed Jul 17, 2013 5:01 am ((PDT))
And I think it could involve phonological borrowing too.
I encountered a possible "mixed" language in Indonesia (Celebes) though I
wasn't able to investigate it more fully-- there's a coastal area that has seen
a lot of in-migration of people who used to live in the mountainous interior.
First of all, the ex-mountain folk adopted Islam (giving up their native
animism) and eschewed pork :-)) Both langs. were closely related (think
English vs.:Dutch), but the coastal language was considered more prestigious.
Still, some features of the mountain language crept in, like **w > /h/ and some
vowel changes. It might better be described as a "koine", where "the best
features of both languages are adopted." That, incidentally, is the native
description of how standardized Malay arose, not to mention standard
Indonesian, which is full of Javanese and some regional loans that Peninsular
Malay lacks.
The same might possibly be said of Yiddish (basically a German dialect) as it
spread eastward into Slavic-speaking areas.
Question for Ray Brown-- is that how koine Greek arose, or is said to have
arisen???
________________________________
From: MorphemeAddict <lytl...@gmail.com>
To: conl...@listserv.brown.edu
Sent: Wednesday, July 17, 2013 12:33 AM
Subject: Re: Creoles
My understanding is that it means taking the lexicon from one language
(primarily) and the grammar from another (primarily).
stevo
On Wed, Jul 17, 2013 at 12:30 AM, Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews <
goldyemo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Whatt does it mean to mix languages? Ais it word-borrowing?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Mellissa Green
>
>
>
>
>
> @GreenNovelist
>
>
>
Messages in this topic (3)
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________________________________________________________________________
3a. Rolling your R's
Posted by: "H. S. Teoh" hst...@quickfur.ath.cx
Date: Tue Jul 16, 2013 11:02 pm ((PDT))
I've always wanted to pronounce trills, and for many years I tried to
learn it with all kinds of techniques and suggestions from people, but
all to no avail. Up until about a week or two ago, the only trill I've
ever been able to produce is the bilabial trill.
But about a week or so ago, while trying to figure out how exactly
_ehrlu_ should be pronounced in my new alien conlang (something like
/Exrlu/ where the /r/ is some kind of trill), I somehow accidentally
stumbled upon a guttural, voiceless trill of some sort, which I shall
refer to henceforth as /xr/. I still can't consistently produce it, but
the combination [Exr] somehow gets my vocal apparatus in (or near) the
state required for trilling, so once in a while a trill comes out.
I still have no idea what exactly /xr/ is. It is voiceless, and involves
some rather guttural sounds. I *think* it's an uvular trill, but it may
be a mixture of uvular + alveolar trill. Or maybe it's [x] followed by a
voiceless [r]? How do you tell the difference between an uvular trill
and an alveolar trill? I know that in theory [R\] is trilling the uvula
whereas [r] is trilling the tip of the tongue, but the way I'm
pronouncing /xr/ seems like some kind of hybrid between the two. The tip
of my tongue is actually pulled quite far back in the mouth, almost
palatal -- I can't get any trill at all if I move my tongue any farther
forwards. The vibration starts out somewhere far back in my throat, and
sometimes moves forward to the tip of the tongue.
Do y'all have trouble pronouncing trills? And if not, what kind of
trill(s) can you pronounce, and how?
After accidentally discovering /xr/ (whatever it is), I managed after
much effort to shift things about to be able to say /Er:/ with what I
believe is an alveolar trill. But I still have trouble consistently
producing this sound, and I still can't pronounce it with other sounds
(or at least, only with great difficulty). The only way I manage to
trill my /r/ is by pulling my tongue quite far back in the mouth, with
the tip of my tongue curled up to an almost vertical position; this is a
rather inconvenient position to be combined with many vowels/consonants.
Because of this, I'm a bit unsure whether it's a real *alveolar* trill,
and not a dorsal palatal trill or something (is there such a thing?).
Any tips/ideas? :)
Also, why aren't there IPA symbols for voiced/voiceless trills? I can
clearly pronounce both voiced and voiceless variants of /r/, and /xr/,
whatever it is, is clearly voiceless. But AFAICT, the only IPA symbols
for trills are [r] and [R\]?
T
--
Designer clothes: how to cover less by paying more.
Messages in this topic (5)
________________________________________________________________________
3b. Re: Rolling your R's
Posted by: "James Kane" kane...@gmail.com
Date: Tue Jul 16, 2013 11:58 pm ((PDT))
It seems like you might be producing a voiceless _retroflex_ trill? It
is sort of like pushing your tongue forward from its curled position
by a puff of air (with maybe some frication in the throat - don't
quote me, I'm not a phonetician). Otherwise it's probably a voiceless
alveolar or voiceless uvular trill.
I've always been able to roll an alveolar trill, although I find it
much easier to just tap/flap (I still don't know the difference
between taps and flaps). I've had a lot of trouble with the uvular
trill; for the first few years of learning French I think I pronounced
it just as a voiced velar fricative that assimilated in voicing to
surrounding consonants. Even now it comes and goes. Sometimes in
isolation I can produce it easily, other times (like now, as I sit in
front of my computer making weird noises) it doesn't come at all. But
when I speak it I'm pretty sure I just get a uvular fricative.
The IPA signs for voiceless trills are just the signs for normal
trills with the voiceless diacritic: /r̊ ʀ̊/. I hope that comes
through, it's an <r> and a small capital <R> with empty rings above.
Can you flap? I find it easier than trilling and when I'm lazy I just
use the flap everywhere there should be trills. The only advice for
trilling, which you've probably heard already, is to prolong a flap.
James
On 7/17/13, H. S. Teoh <hst...@quickfur.ath.cx> wrote:
> I've always wanted to pronounce trills, and for many years I tried to
> learn it with all kinds of techniques and suggestions from people, but
> all to no avail. Up until about a week or two ago, the only trill I've
> ever been able to produce is the bilabial trill.
>
> But about a week or so ago, while trying to figure out how exactly
> _ehrlu_ should be pronounced in my new alien conlang (something like
> /Exrlu/ where the /r/ is some kind of trill), I somehow accidentally
> stumbled upon a guttural, voiceless trill of some sort, which I shall
> refer to henceforth as /xr/. I still can't consistently produce it, but
> the combination [Exr] somehow gets my vocal apparatus in (or near) the
> state required for trilling, so once in a while a trill comes out.
>
> I still have no idea what exactly /xr/ is. It is voiceless, and involves
> some rather guttural sounds. I *think* it's an uvular trill, but it may
> be a mixture of uvular + alveolar trill. Or maybe it's [x] followed by a
> voiceless [r]? How do you tell the difference between an uvular trill
> and an alveolar trill? I know that in theory [R\] is trilling the uvula
> whereas [r] is trilling the tip of the tongue, but the way I'm
> pronouncing /xr/ seems like some kind of hybrid between the two. The tip
> of my tongue is actually pulled quite far back in the mouth, almost
> palatal -- I can't get any trill at all if I move my tongue any farther
> forwards. The vibration starts out somewhere far back in my throat, and
> sometimes moves forward to the tip of the tongue.
>
> Do y'all have trouble pronouncing trills? And if not, what kind of
> trill(s) can you pronounce, and how?
>
> After accidentally discovering /xr/ (whatever it is), I managed after
> much effort to shift things about to be able to say /Er:/ with what I
> believe is an alveolar trill. But I still have trouble consistently
> producing this sound, and I still can't pronounce it with other sounds
> (or at least, only with great difficulty). The only way I manage to
> trill my /r/ is by pulling my tongue quite far back in the mouth, with
> the tip of my tongue curled up to an almost vertical position; this is a
> rather inconvenient position to be combined with many vowels/consonants.
> Because of this, I'm a bit unsure whether it's a real *alveolar* trill,
> and not a dorsal palatal trill or something (is there such a thing?).
>
> Any tips/ideas? :)
>
> Also, why aren't there IPA symbols for voiced/voiceless trills? I can
> clearly pronounce both voiced and voiceless variants of /r/, and /xr/,
> whatever it is, is clearly voiceless. But AFAICT, the only IPA symbols
> for trills are [r] and [R\]?
>
>
> T
>
> --
> Designer clothes: how to cover less by paying more.
>
--
(This is my signature.)
Messages in this topic (5)
________________________________________________________________________
3c. Re: Rolling your R's
Posted by: "BPJ" b...@melroch.se
Date: Wed Jul 17, 2013 12:18 am ((PDT))
I guess you can coarticulate a uvular and an alveolar trill/fricative but
I'd guess that you're just pronouncing a voiceless uvular trill. A
forcefully articulated /X/ easily becomes trilled. You should rather easily
feel if the uvula is vibrating; it kind of bubbles in your throat.
Swedish velars have uvular allophones -- /k/ and /g/ around back vowels
and /x/ anywhere -- and I rise the tip of my tung when pronouncing them
about half of the time, perhaps with some slight extra friction. Even so
coarticulations like [xS) XS)] and even [xp\) Xp\] are within the normal
'lectal range of that highly polymorphic Swedish phoneme the 'sj-sound'.
[xS)] even has its own symbol [x\]!
Anyway my pronunciation ranges between velar and uvular with the occasional
labialization, and it easily becomes a trill e.g. when I say [Xu\:kt_h]
'sick!' as an exclamation.
IPA has a symbol for a bilabial trill: a small capital B or [B\] in CXS.
/bpj
Den onsdagen den 17:e juli 2013 skrev H. S. Teoh:
> I've always wanted to pronounce trills, and for many years I tried to
> learn it with all kinds of techniques and suggestions from people, but
> all to no avail. Up until about a week or two ago, the only trill I've
> ever been able to produce is the bilabial trill.
>
> But about a week or so ago, while trying to figure out how exactly
> _ehrlu_ should be pronounced in my new alien conlang (something like
> /Exrlu/ where the /r/ is some kind of trill), I somehow accidentally
> stumbled upon a guttural, voiceless trill of some sort, which I shall
> refer to henceforth as /xr/. I still can't consistently produce it, but
> the combination [Exr] somehow gets my vocal apparatus in (or near) the
> state required for trilling, so once in a while a trill comes out.
>
> I still have no idea what exactly /xr/ is. It is voiceless, and involves
> some rather guttural sounds. I *think* it's an uvular trill, but it may
> be a mixture of uvular + alveolar trill. Or maybe it's [x] followed by a
> voiceless [r]? How do you tell the difference between an uvular trill
> and an alveolar trill? I know that in theory [R\] is trilling the uvula
> whereas [r] is trilling the tip of the tongue, but the way I'm
> pronouncing /xr/ seems like some kind of hybrid between the two. The tip
> of my tongue is actually pulled quite far back in the mouth, almost
> palatal -- I can't get any trill at all if I move my tongue any farther
> forwards. The vibration starts out somewhere far back in my throat, and
> sometimes moves forward to the tip of the tongue.
>
> Do y'all have trouble pronouncing trills? And if not, what kind of
> trill(s) can you pronounce, and how?
>
> After accidentally discovering /xr/ (whatever it is), I managed after
> much effort to shift things about to be able to say /Er:/ with what I
> believe is an alveolar trill. But I still have trouble consistently
> producing this sound, and I still can't pronounce it with other sounds
> (or at least, only with great difficulty). The only way I manage to
> trill my /r/ is by pulling my tongue quite far back in the mouth, with
> the tip of my tongue curled up to an almost vertical position; this is a
> rather inconvenient position to be combined with many vowels/consonants.
> Because of this, I'm a bit unsure whether it's a real *alveolar* trill,
> and not a dorsal palatal trill or something (is there such a thing?).
>
> Any tips/ideas? :)
>
> Also, why aren't there IPA symbols for voiced/voiceless trills? I can
> clearly pronounce both voiced and voiceless variants of /r/, and /xr/,
> whatever it is, is clearly voiceless. But AFAICT, the only IPA symbols
> for trills are [r] and [R\]?
>
>
> T
>
> --
> Designer clothes: how to cover less by paying more.
>
Messages in this topic (5)
________________________________________________________________________
3d. Re: Rolling your R's
Posted by: "taliesin the storyteller" taliesin-conl...@nvg.org
Date: Wed Jul 17, 2013 1:59 am ((PDT))
On 2013-07-17 09:18, BPJ wrote:
> I guess you can coarticulate a uvular and an alveolar trill/fricative but
> I'd guess that you're just pronouncing a voiceless uvular trill. A
> forcefully articulated /X/ easily becomes trilled. You should rather easily
> feel if the uvula is vibrating; it kind of bubbles in your throat.
.. like gargling water without the water, really.
Same for an alveolar trill, there's very little doubt when you get it
right, the mouthfeel is unique.
Non-plosives and non-trills can be ingressive (breathing *in* instead of
*out*), which is a nice way of discovering how things are placed in
one's mouth, as all the protruding bits are cooled down (provided that
the temperature of the air is lower than that of the body of course).
t.
Messages in this topic (5)
________________________________________________________________________
3e. Re: Rolling your R's
Posted by: "Roger Mills" romi...@yahoo.com
Date: Wed Jul 17, 2013 5:18 am ((PDT))
From: H. S. Teoh <hst...@quickfur.ath.cx>
But about a week or so ago, while trying to figure out how exactly
_ehrlu_ should be pronounced in my new alien conlang (something like
/Exrlu/ where the /r/ is some kind of trill), I somehow accidentally
stumbled upon a guttural, voiceless trill of some sort, which I shall
refer to henceforth as /xr/. I still can't consistently produce it, but
the combination [Exr] somehow gets my vocal apparatus in (or near) the
state required for trilling, so once in a while a trill comes out.
=========================================
RM I can do [xr] or maybe [Xr] but I note that the velar/uvular pulls the
tongue tip back towards the hard palate....
=================================
I still have no idea what exactly /xr/ is. It is voiceless, and involves
some rather guttural sounds. I *think* it's an uvular trill, but it may
be a mixture of uvular + alveolar trill. Or maybe it's [x] followed by a
voiceless [r]?
================================
RM that's probably what I'm doing
=================================
How do you tell the difference between an uvular trill
and an alveolar trill?
===================
RM Oh my, just listen to any recording of Edith Piaf vs. any recording of a
Spanish or Italian speaker!!!!
===========================
(snip)
Do y'all have trouble pronouncing trills? And if not, what kind of
trill(s) can you pronounce, and how?
==================================
RM Try as I might, I cannot produce the uvular trill of Parisian French (except
when gargling ;-(((( ) though I can do uvular stops and fricatives without a
problem. When I try to "sound French (or German)", my r's usually come out as a
velar fricative. OTOH I've never had any trouble with the alveolar trill/tap
in Spanish, Italian or Indonesian..... go figure !!
=========================================
Also, why aren't there IPA symbols for voiced/voiceless trills? I can
clearly pronounce both voiced and voiceless variants of /r/, and /xr/,
whatever it is, is clearly voiceless. But AFAICT, the only IPA symbols
for trills are [r] and [R\]?
================================
RM Perhaps because they are (or were once thought to be) rare in languages of
the world. Anyhow, there's a "voiceless" diacritic.
Messages in this topic (5)
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