There are 15 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1a. Re: Creoles
From: R A Brown
1b. Re: Creoles
From: Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews
1c. Re: Creoles
From: MorphemeAddict
1d. Re: Creoles
From: H. S. Teoh
1e. Re: Creoles
From: MorphemeAddict
1f. Re: Creoles
From: R A Brown
1g. Re: Creoles
From: R A Brown
1h. Re: Creoles
From: Garth Wallace
1i. Re: Creoles
From: Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews
2a. Re: Wisconsin Public Radio: Central Time
From: Wm Annis
2b. Re: Wisconsin Public Radio: Central Time
From: Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets
3a. Re: Rolling your R's
From: H. S. Teoh
3b. Re: Rolling your R's
From: Adam Walker
3c. Re: Rolling your R's
From: George Corley
3d. Re: Rolling your R's
From: H. S. Teoh
Messages
________________________________________________________________________
1a. Re: Creoles
Posted by: "R A Brown" r...@carolandray.plus.com
Date: Wed Jul 17, 2013 6:45 am ((PDT))
On 17/07/2013 05:33, MorphemeAddict wrote:
> My understanding is that it means taking the lexicon
> from one language (primarily) and the grammar from
> another (primarily).
certainly if one of the languages is perceived as more
prestigious than the other, vocabulary will tend to come
from the prestigious language; but there will be odd bit
from the other language or, indeed, languages.
Creoles often have grammatical features that are not common
to either parent language.
=======================================================
On 17/07/2013 13:01, Roger Mills wrote:
> And I think it could involve phonological borrowing too.
Most certainly.
[interesting stuff snipped]
> Question for Ray Brown-- is that how koine Greek arose,
> or is said to have arisen???
Yes, same sort of way. It developed from the Greek taken by
Alexander's soldiers and reinforced by traders and settlers
in the conquered territories.
It was based on the Greek of Athens, as this was seen as a
more prestigious dialect than others; but features which
were peculiarly Attic got ironed out with 'more acceptable'
pan-Hellenic features from the other Ionic dialects. For
example, the peculiarly Attic θάλασττα (thálatta) was
replaces by Ionic θάλασσα (thalassa).
During the time of its use it was modified by the speech
habits of L2 speakers; this was probably why pitch accent
gave way during the roman period to stress accent.
But it was a Koine, not a Creole. It is not improbable that
in seaports, for example, Greek-based pidgins become
creolized, but we have no record of any such creoles.
--
Ray
==================================
http://www.carolandray.plus.com
==================================
"language … began with half-musical unanalysed expressions
for individual beings and events."
[Otto Jespersen, Progress in Language, 1895]
Messages in this topic (12)
________________________________________________________________________
1b. Re: Creoles
Posted by: "Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews" goldyemo...@gmail.com
Date: Wed Jul 17, 2013 7:00 am ((PDT))
I can't begin to have a Creole for Yardish.
Mellissa Green
@GreenNovelist
-----Original Message-----
From: Constructed Languages List [mailto:conl...@listserv.brown.edu] On Behalf
Of R A Brown
Sent: Wednesday, July 17, 2013 9:45 AM
To: conl...@listserv.brown.edu
Subject: Re: Creoles
On 17/07/2013 05:33, MorphemeAddict wrote:
> My understanding is that it means taking the lexicon
> from one language (primarily) and the grammar from
> another (primarily).
certainly if one of the languages is perceived as more
prestigious than the other, vocabulary will tend to come
from the prestigious language; but there will be odd bit
from the other language or, indeed, languages.
Creoles often have grammatical features that are not common
to either parent language.
=======================================================
On 17/07/2013 13:01, Roger Mills wrote:
> And I think it could involve phonological borrowing too.
Most certainly.
[interesting stuff snipped]
> Question for Ray Brown-- is that how koine Greek arose,
> or is said to have arisen???
Yes, same sort of way. It developed from the Greek taken by
Alexander's soldiers and reinforced by traders and settlers
in the conquered territories.
It was based on the Greek of Athens, as this was seen as a
more prestigious dialect than others; but features which
were peculiarly Attic got ironed out with 'more acceptable'
pan-Hellenic features from the other Ionic dialects. For
example, the peculiarly Attic θάλασττα (thálatta) was
replaces by Ionic θάλασσα (thalassa).
During the time of its use it was modified by the speech
habits of L2 speakers; this was probably why pitch accent
gave way during the roman period to stress accent.
But it was a Koine, not a Creole. It is not improbable that
in seaports, for example, Greek-based pidgins become
creolized, but we have no record of any such creoles.
--
Ray
==================================
http://www.carolandray.plus.com
==================================
"language … began with half-musical unanalysed expressions
for individual beings and events."
[Otto Jespersen, Progress in Language, 1895]
Messages in this topic (12)
________________________________________________________________________
1c. Re: Creoles
Posted by: "MorphemeAddict" lytl...@gmail.com
Date: Wed Jul 17, 2013 8:11 am ((PDT))
For
example, the peculiarly Attic θάλασττα (thálatta) was
replaces by Ionic θάλασσα (thalassa).
Is the Attic sigma silent?
stevo
On Wed, Jul 17, 2013 at 9:45 AM, R A Brown <r...@carolandray.plus.com> wrote:
> On 17/07/2013 05:33, MorphemeAddict wrote:
>
>> My understanding is that it means taking the lexicon
>> from one language (primarily) and the grammar from
>> another (primarily).
>>
>
> certainly if one of the languages is perceived as more
> prestigious than the other, vocabulary will tend to come
> from the prestigious language; but there will be odd bit
> from the other language or, indeed, languages.
>
> Creoles often have grammatical features that are not common
> to either parent language.
> ==============================**=========================
>
>
> On 17/07/2013 13:01, Roger Mills wrote:
>
>> And I think it could involve phonological borrowing too.
>>
>
> Most certainly.
>
> [interesting stuff snipped]
>
>
> Question for Ray Brown-- is that how koine Greek arose,
>> or is said to have arisen???
>>
>
> Yes, same sort of way. It developed from the Greek taken by
> Alexander's soldiers and reinforced by traders and settlers
> in the conquered territories.
>
> It was based on the Greek of Athens, as this was seen as a
> more prestigious dialect than others; but features which
> were peculiarly Attic got ironed out with 'more acceptable'
> pan-Hellenic features from the other Ionic dialects. For
> example, the peculiarly Attic θάλασττα (thálatta) was
> replaces by Ionic θάλασσα (thalassa).
>
> During the time of its use it was modified by the speech
> habits of L2 speakers; this was probably why pitch accent
> gave way during the roman period to stress accent.
>
> But it was a Koine, not a Creole. It is not improbable that
> in seaports, for example, Greek-based pidgins become
> creolized, but we have no record of any such creoles.
>
> --
> Ray
> ==============================**====
> http://www.carolandray.plus.**com <http://www.carolandray.plus.com>
> ==============================**====
> "language … began with half-musical unanalysed expressions
> for individual beings and events."
> [Otto Jespersen, Progress in Language, 1895]
>
Messages in this topic (12)
________________________________________________________________________
1d. Re: Creoles
Posted by: "H. S. Teoh" hst...@quickfur.ath.cx
Date: Wed Jul 17, 2013 8:14 am ((PDT))
On Wed, Jul 17, 2013 at 11:10:53AM -0400, MorphemeAddict wrote:
> On Wed, Jul 17, 2013 at 9:45 AM, R A Brown <r...@carolandray.plus.com> wrote:
> > For example, the peculiarly Attic θάλασττα (thálatta) was replaces
> > by Ionic θάλασσα (thalassa).
>
> Is the Attic sigma silent?
[...]
IIRC, /ss/ -> /tt/ is a regular sound change peculiar to the Attic
dialect. It only happens with the historic doubled sigma, not with a
single sigma.
T
--
Why do conspiracy theories always come from the same people??
Messages in this topic (12)
________________________________________________________________________
1e. Re: Creoles
Posted by: "MorphemeAddict" lytl...@gmail.com
Date: Wed Jul 17, 2013 8:24 am ((PDT))
Okay, but it says "stt" pronounced as /tt/. Is that the case?
stevo
On Wed, Jul 17, 2013 at 11:12 AM, H. S. Teoh <hst...@quickfur.ath.cx> wrote:
> On Wed, Jul 17, 2013 at 11:10:53AM -0400, MorphemeAddict wrote:
> > On Wed, Jul 17, 2013 at 9:45 AM, R A Brown <r...@carolandray.plus.com>
> wrote:
> > > For example, the peculiarly Attic θάλασττα (thálatta) was replaces
> > > by Ionic θάλασσα (thalassa).
> >
> > Is the Attic sigma silent?
> [...]
>
> IIRC, /ss/ -> /tt/ is a regular sound change peculiar to the Attic
> dialect. It only happens with the historic doubled sigma, not with a
> single sigma.
>
>
> T
>
> --
> Why do conspiracy theories always come from the same people??
>
Messages in this topic (12)
________________________________________________________________________
1f. Re: Creoles
Posted by: "R A Brown" r...@carolandray.plus.com
Date: Wed Jul 17, 2013 9:28 am ((PDT))
On 17/07/2013 16:10, MorphemeAddict wrote:
> For example, the peculiarly Attic θάλασττα (thálatta)
> was replaces by Ionic θάλασσα (thalassa).
>
> Is the Attic sigma silent?
No.
==============================================
On 17/07/2013 16:12, H. S. Teoh wrote:
[snip]
>
> IIRC, /ss/ -> /tt/ is a regular sound change peculiar to
> the Attic dialect.
Not exactly - rather */ts/ --> /tt/ in Attic, Boiotian,
Cretan & some Thessalian dialects; whereas */ts/ --> /ss/
was normal all Ionian dialects, except Attic, and in most
other dialects.
=================================================
On 17/07/2013 16:23, MorphemeAddict wrote:
> Okay, but it says "stt" pronounced as /tt/. Is that the
> case?
Not sure what _it_ refers to. but this is entirely
incorrect. /tt/ was pronounced [tt] :)
--
Ray
==================================
http://www.carolandray.plus.com
==================================
"language … began with half-musical unanalysed expressions
for individual beings and events."
[Otto Jespersen, Progress in Language, 1895]
Messages in this topic (12)
________________________________________________________________________
1g. Re: Creoles
Posted by: "R A Brown" r...@carolandray.plus.com
Date: Wed Jul 17, 2013 9:39 am ((PDT))
On 17/07/2013 17:28, R A Brown wrote:
> On 17/07/2013 16:10, MorphemeAddict wrote:
>> For example, the peculiarly Attic θάλασττα (thálatta)
>> was replaces by Ionic θάλασσα (thalassa).
>>
>> Is the Attic sigma silent?
Sorry - typo in the Greek which I didn't notice - only
looking at the Romanization in parenthesis.
Attic for "sea" is θάλαττα. The combination -σττ- in not
permitted in any ancient dialect.
--
Ray
==================================
http://www.carolandray.plus.com
==================================
"language … began with half-musical unanalysed expressions
for individual beings and events."
[Otto Jespersen, Progress in Language, 1895]
Messages in this topic (12)
________________________________________________________________________
1h. Re: Creoles
Posted by: "Garth Wallace" gwa...@gmail.com
Date: Wed Jul 17, 2013 10:02 am ((PDT))
It would have to be a creole between Yardish and something else.
But you would have to pin down Yardish before you could address any
descendant languages.
On Wed, Jul 17, 2013 at 7:00 AM, Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews
<goldyemo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I can't begin to have a Creole for Yardish.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Mellissa Green
>
>
> @GreenNovelist
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Constructed Languages List [mailto:conl...@listserv.brown.edu] On
> Behalf Of R A Brown
> Sent: Wednesday, July 17, 2013 9:45 AM
> To: conl...@listserv.brown.edu
> Subject: Re: Creoles
>
> On 17/07/2013 05:33, MorphemeAddict wrote:
>> My understanding is that it means taking the lexicon
>> from one language (primarily) and the grammar from
>> another (primarily).
>
> certainly if one of the languages is perceived as more
> prestigious than the other, vocabulary will tend to come
> from the prestigious language; but there will be odd bit
> from the other language or, indeed, languages.
>
> Creoles often have grammatical features that are not common
> to either parent language.
> =======================================================
>
> On 17/07/2013 13:01, Roger Mills wrote:
>> And I think it could involve phonological borrowing too.
>
> Most certainly.
>
> [interesting stuff snipped]
>
>> Question for Ray Brown-- is that how koine Greek arose,
>> or is said to have arisen???
>
> Yes, same sort of way. It developed from the Greek taken by
> Alexander's soldiers and reinforced by traders and settlers
> in the conquered territories.
>
> It was based on the Greek of Athens, as this was seen as a
> more prestigious dialect than others; but features which
> were peculiarly Attic got ironed out with 'more acceptable'
> pan-Hellenic features from the other Ionic dialects. For
> example, the peculiarly Attic θάλασττα (thálatta) was
> replaces by Ionic θάλασσα (thalassa).
>
> During the time of its use it was modified by the speech
> habits of L2 speakers; this was probably why pitch accent
> gave way during the roman period to stress accent.
>
> But it was a Koine, not a Creole. It is not improbable that
> in seaports, for example, Greek-based pidgins become
> creolized, but we have no record of any such creoles.
>
> --
> Ray
> ==================================
> http://www.carolandray.plus.com
> ==================================
> "language … began with half-musical unanalysed expressions
> for individual beings and events."
> [Otto Jespersen, Progress in Language, 1895]
Messages in this topic (12)
________________________________________________________________________
1i. Re: Creoles
Posted by: "Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews" goldyemo...@gmail.com
Date: Wed Jul 17, 2013 10:28 am ((PDT))
Right. I figure, I don't really know how Creoles work.
Mellissa Green
@GreenNovelist
-----Original Message-----
From: Constructed Languages List [mailto:conl...@listserv.brown.edu] On Behalf
Of Garth Wallace
Sent: Wednesday, July 17, 2013 1:02 PM
To: conl...@listserv.brown.edu
Subject: Re: Creoles
It would have to be a creole between Yardish and something else.
But you would have to pin down Yardish before you could address any
descendant languages.
On Wed, Jul 17, 2013 at 7:00 AM, Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews
<goldyemo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I can't begin to have a Creole for Yardish.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Mellissa Green
>
>
> @GreenNovelist
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Constructed Languages List [mailto:conl...@listserv.brown.edu] On
> Behalf Of R A Brown
> Sent: Wednesday, July 17, 2013 9:45 AM
> To: conl...@listserv.brown.edu
> Subject: Re: Creoles
>
> On 17/07/2013 05:33, MorphemeAddict wrote:
>> My understanding is that it means taking the lexicon
>> from one language (primarily) and the grammar from
>> another (primarily).
>
> certainly if one of the languages is perceived as more
> prestigious than the other, vocabulary will tend to come
> from the prestigious language; but there will be odd bit
> from the other language or, indeed, languages.
>
> Creoles often have grammatical features that are not common
> to either parent language.
> =======================================================
>
> On 17/07/2013 13:01, Roger Mills wrote:
>> And I think it could involve phonological borrowing too.
>
> Most certainly.
>
> [interesting stuff snipped]
>
>> Question for Ray Brown-- is that how koine Greek arose,
>> or is said to have arisen???
>
> Yes, same sort of way. It developed from the Greek taken by
> Alexander's soldiers and reinforced by traders and settlers
> in the conquered territories.
>
> It was based on the Greek of Athens, as this was seen as a
> more prestigious dialect than others; but features which
> were peculiarly Attic got ironed out with 'more acceptable'
> pan-Hellenic features from the other Ionic dialects. For
> example, the peculiarly Attic θάλασττα (thálatta) was
> replaces by Ionic θάλασσα (thalassa).
>
> During the time of its use it was modified by the speech
> habits of L2 speakers; this was probably why pitch accent
> gave way during the roman period to stress accent.
>
> But it was a Koine, not a Creole. It is not improbable that
> in seaports, for example, Greek-based pidgins become
> creolized, but we have no record of any such creoles.
>
> --
> Ray
> ==================================
> http://www.carolandray.plus.com
> ==================================
> "language … began with half-musical unanalysed expressions
> for individual beings and events."
> [Otto Jespersen, Progress in Language, 1895]
Messages in this topic (12)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
2a. Re: Wisconsin Public Radio: Central Time
Posted by: "Wm Annis" wm.an...@gmail.com
Date: Wed Jul 17, 2013 6:57 am ((PDT))
On Tue, Jul 16, 2013 at 9:33 PM, Padraic Brown <elemti...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Good job sir! Wasn't able to listen in during the broadcast, but did check out
> the archive. A very positive interview that went well beyond the "what the
> heck are you people smoking" sort of question one might dread.
Thanks. One of the hosts, Rob, is a fan of Game of Thrones, which
sent him off on this path so I felt comfortable the interview would be
friendly.
This interview was set up a month ago, and what we talked about in
planning then had very little to do with what we talked about on the
show. If I'd known the LCS was going to get multiple mentions, I might
have spent a few moments reminding myself of everything it does. I
thought I flubbed that part a bit.
--
wm
Messages in this topic (6)
________________________________________________________________________
2b. Re: Wisconsin Public Radio: Central Time
Posted by: "Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets" tsela...@gmail.com
Date: Wed Jul 17, 2013 7:45 am ((PDT))
On 17 July 2013 15:57, Wm Annis <wm.an...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Tue, Jul 16, 2013 at 9:33 PM, Padraic Brown <elemti...@yahoo.com>
> wrote:
> > Good job sir! Wasn't able to listen in during the broadcast, but did
> check out
> > the archive. A very positive interview that went well beyond the "what
> the
> > heck are you people smoking" sort of question one might dread.
>
> Thanks. One of the hosts, Rob, is a fan of Game of Thrones, which
> sent him off on this path so I felt comfortable the interview would be
> friendly.
>
>
I just listened to the interview and thought it was really good. The
questions were well thought out and rather intelligent, and your answers
were very good.
> This interview was set up a month ago, and what we talked about in
> planning then had very little to do with what we talked about on the
> show. If I'd known the LCS was going to get multiple mentions, I might
> have spent a few moments reminding myself of everything it does. I
> thought I flubbed that part a bit.
>
>
I thought it was OK. Yes, there are things the LCS does that you didn't
mention (like providing webspace for members), but you got the main things
right I think.
All in all, a very good interview :) .
So we've got your interview, John Quijada's interview a few weeks ago, and
David Peterson's interview on the Dutch VPRO Gids lately. Conlanging in the
media is getting a boost :P .
--
Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets.
http://christophoronomicon.blogspot.com/
http://www.christophoronomicon.nl/
Messages in this topic (6)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
3a. Re: Rolling your R's
Posted by: "H. S. Teoh" hst...@quickfur.ath.cx
Date: Wed Jul 17, 2013 12:17 pm ((PDT))
On Wed, Jul 17, 2013 at 06:58:43PM +1200, James Kane wrote:
> It seems like you might be producing a voiceless _retroflex_ trill? It
> is sort of like pushing your tongue forward from its curled position
> by a puff of air (with maybe some frication in the throat - don't
> quote me, I'm not a phonetician). Otherwise it's probably a voiceless
> alveolar or voiceless uvular trill.
Well, I doubt it's a retroflex trill, 'cos I can't curl my tongue. :)
> I've always been able to roll an alveolar trill, although I find it
> much easier to just tap/flap (I still don't know the difference
> between taps and flaps). I've had a lot of trouble with the uvular
> trill; for the first few years of learning French I think I pronounced
> it just as a voiced velar fricative that assimilated in voicing to
> surrounding consonants. Even now it comes and goes. Sometimes in
> isolation I can produce it easily, other times (like now, as I sit in
> front of my computer making weird noises) it doesn't come at all. But
> when I speak it I'm pretty sure I just get a uvular fricative.
Yeah, most of the time when I try to pronounce /xr/ I just end up making
some kind of guttural fricative, maybe [x] or [X].
> The IPA signs for voiceless trills are just the signs for normal
> trills with the voiceless diacritic: /r̊ ʀ̊/. I hope that comes
> through, it's an <r> and a small capital <R> with empty rings above.
> Can you flap? I find it easier than trilling and when I'm lazy I just
> use the flap everywhere there should be trills. The only advice for
> trilling, which you've probably heard already, is to prolong a flap.
[...]
OK, flapping is trivial for me (unless what I *think* is a flap,
isn't!), but when I try to prolong a flap I just end up saying [t:]. :)
However, maybe what I imagine is a flap really isn't, and is just a very
fast [d].
On Wed, Jul 17, 2013 at 09:18:09AM +0200, BPJ wrote:
> I guess you can coarticulate a uvular and an alveolar trill/fricative
> but I'd guess that you're just pronouncing a voiceless uvular trill. A
> forcefully articulated /X/ easily becomes trilled. You should rather
> easily feel if the uvula is vibrating; it kind of bubbles in your
> throat.
Hmm. Now that you mention it, I think I may have been pronouncing
*different* trills each time. If I keep my tongue relatively low while
trying to say /xr/, if I manage to get a trill out of it, it's almost
certainly an uvular trill. It feels like gargling.
OTOH, because the /xr/ occurs in the word /ExrlU/, the
immediately-following /l/ makes me want to hold my tongue near [l], so
it's entirely possible that it's coming out as a voiceless alveolar
trill. Or perhaps it's coming out as [xr] and [xR\] on different
occasions (along with various failed attempts like [x:] or [X:]), and
I'm just confusing myself into thinking it's the same sound each time.
> Swedish velars have uvular allophones -- /k/ and /g/ around back
> vowels and /x/ anywhere -- and I rise the tip of my tung when
> pronouncing them about half of the time, perhaps with some slight
> extra friction. Even so coarticulations like [xS) XS)] and even [xp\)
> Xp\] are within the normal 'lectal range of that highly polymorphic
> Swedish phoneme the 'sj-sound'. [xS)] even has its own symbol [x\]!
OK, I've no idea how to simultaneously pronounce [x] and [S]. That seems
really difficult. :)
OTOH, the trills I've been pronouncing have a noticeably fricative-like
quality to them. Could it be that I'm actually saying [xr)] or [XR\)]?
(Is that even possible?)
> Anyway my pronunciation ranges between velar and uvular with the
> occasional labialization, and it easily becomes a trill e.g. when I
> say [Xu\:kt_h] 'sick!' as an exclamation.
Funny, now that you mention it, I notice myself mispronouncing /x/ as
[R\] in words where /xr/ isn't there. :) It seems that /x/ in /xr/
might be more accurately described as /X/, or at least, I've to
pronounce it closer to /X/ in order to get any trills out of it.
> IPA has a symbol for a bilabial trill: a small capital B or [B\] in
> CXS.
[...]
Right, I forgot to mention that one. :)
On Wed, Jul 17, 2013 at 10:59:52AM +0200, taliesin the storyteller wrote:
> On 2013-07-17 09:18, BPJ wrote:
> >I guess you can coarticulate a uvular and an alveolar trill/fricative
> >but I'd guess that you're just pronouncing a voiceless uvular trill.
> >A forcefully articulated /X/ easily becomes trilled. You should
> >rather easily feel if the uvula is vibrating; it kind of bubbles in
> >your throat.
>
> .. like gargling water without the water, really.
Yep, that's a pretty accurate description.
OTOH, this discussion is starting to make me wonder if /x/ in my alien
conlang really has [x] and [X] as allophones. Previously I thought there
was only [x].
> Same for an alveolar trill, there's very little doubt when you get it
> right, the mouthfeel is unique.
True. I've been trying to dissociate /r/ from the original /xr/ (or /Xr/
or /R\/, whatever it was) context that I stumbled upon initially. I
still can't fully get rid of the [x]-like quality of my alveolar trills.
I still find myself making an initial [x] or [G] (or something along
those lines) in order to get the trill started. Is that normal?
> Non-plosives and non-trills can be ingressive (breathing *in*
> instead of *out*), which is a nice way of discovering how things are
> placed in one's mouth, as all the protruding bits are cooled down
> (provided that the temperature of the air is lower than that of the
> body of course).
[...]
Is it possible to have ingressive trills, or is that physically
impossible?
On Wed, Jul 17, 2013 at 05:18:05AM -0700, Roger Mills wrote:
> From: H. S. Teoh <hst...@quickfur.ath.cx>
>
> But about a week or so ago, while trying to figure out how exactly
> _ehrlu_ should be pronounced in my new alien conlang (something like
> /Exrlu/ where the /r/ is some kind of trill), I somehow accidentally
> stumbled upon a guttural, voiceless trill of some sort, which I shall
> refer to henceforth as /xr/. I still can't consistently produce it, but
> the combination [Exr] somehow gets my vocal apparatus in (or near) the
> state required for trilling, so once in a while a trill comes out.
> =========================================
> RM I can do [xr] or maybe [Xr] but I note that the velar/uvular pulls
> the tongue tip back towards the hard palate....
Yeah, that's what I noticed too. I've been trying to say /r/ without the
velarization, but so far I've only had limited success. My /r/'s are
still noticeably colored with [x] or [G].
Meanwhile, I've been experimenting with various mouth positions that
might strengthen my /r/'s. Anybody has any tips here?
I find that narrowing my mouth horizontally seems to help strengthen the
trill (I've no idea which muscles those are, or what they're called).
But it makes it harder to say /r/ in speech, because I don't normally
talk like that! It's like I pronounce everything else in my "normal"
mouth configuration, but then when I get to /r/ I have to reconfigure my
mouth, so the failure rate of actually producing a trill is rather high.
:-/
I've also found that certain positions of widening the lips sometimes
helps (but sometimes makes it worse). And I can't reliably reproduce the
positions that help.
[...]
> How do you tell the difference between an uvular trill
> and an alveolar trill?
> ===================
> RM Oh my, just listen to any recording of Edith Piaf vs. any recording
> of a Spanish or Italian speaker!!!!
> ===========================
Hehe, OK. I should look that up online when I get home. :)
I think I can now identify the uvular trill (at least when I'm saying it
myself). Like others have said, it's like gargling without water. A
French oral tradition, perhaps? :-P :-P
[...]
> Do y'all have trouble pronouncing trills? And if not, what kind of
> trill(s) can you pronounce, and how?
> ==================================
> RM Try as I might, I cannot produce the uvular trill of Parisian
> French (except when gargling ;-(((( ) though I can do uvular stops
> and fricatives without a problem. When I try to "sound French (or
> German)", my r's usually come out as a velar fricative.
German has the uvular trill too?
> OTOH I've never had any trouble with the alveolar trill/tap in
> Spanish, Italian or Indonesian..... go figure !!
You've no idea how happy I am to have discovered how to pronounce
trills, however imperfect it may be at the moment... my entire childhood
of exposure to Malay and being unable to trill my /r/'s, and then
learning Russian in my adulthood and *still* being unable to trill my
/r/'s.
(I'm hoping that I'll be able to master [r] in the near future, so that
I can start working on the [r]/[r_j] contrast in Russian, which I had no
hope of before. Right now my trills require such specific configurations
that attempting to palatize them just doesn't work. How do those Russian
kids do it?!... OTOH, I'm partially comforted by the fact that Vladimir
Lenin himself had trouble with /r/. :-P)
> =========================================
> Also, why aren't there IPA symbols for voiced/voiceless trills? I can
> clearly pronounce both voiced and voiceless variants of /r/, and /xr/,
> whatever it is, is clearly voiceless. But AFAICT, the only IPA symbols
> for trills are [r] and [R\]?
> ================================
> RM Perhaps because they are (or were once thought to be) rare in
> languages of the world. Anyhow, there's a "voiceless" diacritic.
I see. There's also the bilabial trill [B\] in IPA; are there actually
any languages that use that phonemically??
T
--
Some ideas are so stupid that only intellectuals could believe them. -- George
Orwell
Messages in this topic (9)
________________________________________________________________________
3b. Re: Rolling your R's
Posted by: "Adam Walker" carra...@gmail.com
Date: Wed Jul 17, 2013 12:36 pm ((PDT))
On Wed, Jul 17, 2013 at 2:15 PM, H. S. Teoh <hst...@quickfur.ath.cx> wrote:
>
> I see. There's also the bilabial trill [B\] in IPA; are there actually
> any languages that use that phonemically??
>
>
I believe Bai has this sound. At least I have a vague memory of Jerry
Edmonson so claiming.
Adam
Messages in this topic (9)
________________________________________________________________________
3c. Re: Rolling your R's
Posted by: "George Corley" gacor...@gmail.com
Date: Wed Jul 17, 2013 12:55 pm ((PDT))
On Wed, Jul 17, 2013 at 2:15 PM, H. S. Teoh <hst...@quickfur.ath.cx> wrote:
> On Wed, Jul 17, 2013 at 06:58:43PM +1200, James Kane wrote:
> > It seems like you might be producing a voiceless _retroflex_ trill? It
> > is sort of like pushing your tongue forward from its curled position
> > by a puff of air (with maybe some frication in the throat - don't
> > quote me, I'm not a phonetician). Otherwise it's probably a voiceless
> > alveolar or voiceless uvular trill.
>
> Well, I doubt it's a retroflex trill, 'cos I can't curl my tongue. :)
>
>
You don't actually have to curl your tongue back to produce a retroflex --
it's a bit of a misnomer. A retroflex is really just the tip of your tongue
articulating on a point just behind the alveolar ridge. Xrays have shown
"retroflex" consonants pronounced just by pulling the tongue body back far
enough to make it, with no curling.
Messages in this topic (9)
________________________________________________________________________
3d. Re: Rolling your R's
Posted by: "H. S. Teoh" hst...@quickfur.ath.cx
Date: Wed Jul 17, 2013 1:21 pm ((PDT))
On Wed, Jul 17, 2013 at 02:36:33PM -0500, Adam Walker wrote:
> On Wed, Jul 17, 2013 at 2:15 PM, H. S. Teoh <hst...@quickfur.ath.cx> wrote:
>
> >
> > I see. There's also the bilabial trill [B\] in IPA; are there actually
> > any languages that use that phonemically??
> >
> >
> I believe Bai has this sound. At least I have a vague memory of Jerry
> Edmonson so claiming.
[...]
Hmm, interesting. This inspired me to google for it, and after some
effort I found some references to Nias Selatan, an Austronesian language
in which [B\] appears to be a phoneme (though there is some controversy
about it). In other languages, it seems that [B\] only appears as an
allophone of some other underlying phonemes.
On Wed, Jul 17, 2013 at 02:55:34PM -0500, George Corley wrote:
> On Wed, Jul 17, 2013 at 2:15 PM, H. S. Teoh <hst...@quickfur.ath.cx> wrote:
>
> > On Wed, Jul 17, 2013 at 06:58:43PM +1200, James Kane wrote:
> > > It seems like you might be producing a voiceless _retroflex_
> > > trill? It is sort of like pushing your tongue forward from its
> > > curled position by a puff of air (with maybe some frication in the
> > > throat - don't quote me, I'm not a phonetician). Otherwise it's
> > > probably a voiceless alveolar or voiceless uvular trill.
> >
> > Well, I doubt it's a retroflex trill, 'cos I can't curl my tongue.
> > :)
> >
> >
> You don't actually have to curl your tongue back to produce a
> retroflex -- it's a bit of a misnomer. A retroflex is really just the
> tip of your tongue articulating on a point just behind the alveolar
> ridge. Xrays have shown "retroflex" consonants pronounced just by
> pulling the tongue body back far enough to make it, with no curling.
Oh? In that case, that sounds closer to what I'm pronouncing.
Is it similar enough to the alveolar trill that perhaps, hopefully, I'll
be able to transfer over? Or is it still no cigar for getting closer to
the Russian [r]/[r_j] contrast?
On another note, are there any languages that use actual curling of the
tongue in a phoneme? That might be interesting conlang material. :)
T
--
"I'm not childish; I'm just in touch with the child within!" - RL
Messages in this topic (9)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links
<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/conlang/
<*> Your email settings:
Digest Email | Traditional
<*> To change settings online go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/conlang/join
(Yahoo! ID required)
<*> To change settings via email:
conlang-nor...@yahoogroups.com
conlang-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com
<*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
conlang-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com
<*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
------------------------------------------------------------------------
