There are 15 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1a. Re: OT: Web hosting services
From: Casey Borders
2a. Re: searching for missing words
From: Logan Kearsley
2b. Re: searching for missing words
From: MorphemeAddict
2c. Re: searching for missing words
From: Padraic Brown
3a. The quest of a good numeral system
From: Emanuelo Arbaro
3b. Re: The quest of a good numeral system
From: Hugo Cesar de Castro Carneiro
3c. Re: The quest of a good numeral system
From: Padraic Brown
4a. Re: Expressing irony/sarcasm morphologically (was: Re: Fwd: "Even if
From: Padraic Brown
4b. Re: Expressing irony/sarcasm morphologically (was: Re: Fwd: "Even if
From: H. S. Teoh
5a. Conlang Profanity
From: Don Boozer
5b. Re: Conlang Profanity
From: yuri
5c. Re: Conlang Profanity
From: Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews
5d. Re: Conlang Profanity
From: Nina-Kristine Johnson
5e. Re: Conlang Profanity
From: Don
6. 2 Asirkan proverbs:
From: Scott Villanueva-Hlad
Messages
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1a. Re: OT: Web hosting services
Posted by: "Casey Borders" thebeast...@gmail.com
Date: Sun Jul 28, 2013 9:48 am ((PDT))
I use DreamHost. It's a shared server but they give you a lot of
flexibility with what you can do for a fraction of the cost of a VPS.
On Jul 27, 2013 12:53 AM, "Leonardo Castro" <leolucas1...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi, conlangers!
>
> For those who have their own web sites, what web hosting service do
> you use? Why?
>
> I don't know if this influence the choice, but I have some programs
> created in NetBeans/Java/Ubuntu that I would like to put on the
> Internet as applets.
>
> And I would not like to use a free hosting service if I it requires me
> to give up publication rights over my code and texts by using it.
>
> Até mais!
>
> Leonardo
>
Messages in this topic (6)
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________________________________________________________________________
2a. Re: searching for missing words
Posted by: "Logan Kearsley" chronosur...@gmail.com
Date: Sun Jul 28, 2013 10:08 am ((PDT))
On 27 July 2013 20:07, MorphemeAddict <lytl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I'm currently reading a novel with lots of typos in it. I didn't start
> marking them until about the third one. I remember that a very early typo
> was a missing "to".
>
> Is there any way to search for missing words in an electronic manuscript?
The only way *I* can think of doing it (perhaps I would think of some
more given enough time, but it's been a whole sleep already) is to
construct two probabilistic n-gram language models- one giving the
probability that any word will occur in a particular position, as is
typical, and one giving the probability for a word one position later,
with an unknown word in the gap. For every token in the text, if the
probability of that token occurring one position later than where it
is observed is larger than the models expectation of it's probability
of occurring in its observed position, then there's probably a missing
word. You can then use the normal model "in reverse" to provide
suggested words for filling the gap.
-l.
Messages in this topic (5)
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2b. Re: searching for missing words
Posted by: "MorphemeAddict" lytl...@gmail.com
Date: Sun Jul 28, 2013 11:54 am ((PDT))
I suspect this approach will work better than the WPUSCP.
stevo
On Sun, Jul 28, 2013 at 1:08 PM, Logan Kearsley <chronosur...@gmail.com>wrote:
> On 27 July 2013 20:07, MorphemeAddict <lytl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > I'm currently reading a novel with lots of typos in it. I didn't start
> > marking them until about the third one. I remember that a very early typo
> > was a missing "to".
> >
> > Is there any way to search for missing words in an electronic manuscript?
>
> The only way *I* can think of doing it (perhaps I would think of some
> more given enough time, but it's been a whole sleep already) is to
> construct two probabilistic n-gram language models- one giving the
> probability that any word will occur in a particular position, as is
> typical, and one giving the probability for a word one position later,
> with an unknown word in the gap. For every token in the text, if the
> probability of that token occurring one position later than where it
> is observed is larger than the models expectation of it's probability
> of occurring in its observed position, then there's probably a missing
> word. You can then use the normal model "in reverse" to provide
> suggested words for filling the gap.
>
> -l.
>
Messages in this topic (5)
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2c. Re: searching for missing words
Posted by: "Padraic Brown" elemti...@yahoo.com
Date: Sun Jul 28, 2013 12:24 pm ((PDT))
> From: MorphemeAddict <lytl...@gmail.com>
>
> I suspect this approach will work better than the WPUSCP.
Oy! Don't knock em til you try em! :P
Padraic
> stevo
>
>
> On Sun, Jul 28, 2013 at 1:08 PM, Logan Kearsley
> <chronosur...@gmail.com>wrote:
>
>> On 27 July 2013 20:07, MorphemeAddict <lytl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > I'm currently reading a novel with lots of typos in it. I
> didn't start
>> > marking them until about the third one. I remember that a very early
> typo
>> > was a missing "to".
>> >
>> > Is there any way to search for missing words in an electronic
> manuscript?
>>
>> The only way *I* can think of doing it (perhaps I would think of some
>> more given enough time, but it's been a whole sleep already) is to
>> construct two probabilistic n-gram language models- one giving the
>> probability that any word will occur in a particular position, as is
>> typical, and one giving the probability for a word one position later,
>> with an unknown word in the gap. For every token in the text, if the
>> probability of that token occurring one position later than where it
>> is observed is larger than the models expectation of it's probability
>> of occurring in its observed position, then there's probably a missing
>> word. You can then use the normal model "in reverse" to provide
>> suggested words for filling the gap.
>>
>> -l.
>>
>
Messages in this topic (5)
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3a. The quest of a good numeral system
Posted by: "Emanuelo Arbaro" emanuelo.arb...@gmail.com
Date: Sun Jul 28, 2013 11:04 am ((PDT))
Hi, friends!
I'm creating a conlang, named (temporarily perhaps) «Glotta». I've
created a conscript, who is a semi-abjad (inspired by the massoretic
hebrew alphabet).
Based on this alphabet, I want to create a numeral system. Like Hebrew,
this system have to allow the gematria
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gematria>: that is, all word have a
numerical value too. For example, in Hebrew, ??? (yeled, the child) is
also the number «26».
My alphabet have 19 consonants, and all the words have three letters: my
numerical system have to use all the 19 letters and in all places of a
three-lettered number. I sought a good system, but the results are
inconclusive. My system is very complicated (it's not a problem /in se/,
but I prefer simple systems), and all the words have not a numerical
value (I use the 19 letters, but they can't be in all places, or I use
just some letters).
Can somebody help me?
Thanks!
Emanuelo (France).
Messages in this topic (3)
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3b. Re: The quest of a good numeral system
Posted by: "Hugo Cesar de Castro Carneiro" hcesarcas...@gmail.com
Date: Sun Jul 28, 2013 11:42 am ((PDT))
Emanuelo, as I can see, an alphabet must have a specific amount of
symbols/letters, fot it to allow the gematria.
The hebrew gematria works in a base-10 system (aleph to teth = 1 to 9, yodh
to tsadi = 10 to 90, qoph to final tsade = 100 to 900).
For the hebrew alphabet to work with a base-10 system, it was needed to add
5 new characters (final kaph, mem, nun, pe and tsade). This happens because
the number of symbols/letters needed in an alphabet for it to allow a
gematria with a base-10 system is 27 = 3*9 = 3*(10-1) (The 3 represents
that the alphabet encodes units, tens and hundreds).
So, you first need to know if you want to encode only units, tens and
hundreds, or even thousands.
Well, to encode units, tens and hundreds you will need 27 symbols for a
base-10 system, 24 for a base-9, 21 for a base-8 and 18 for a base-7.
Maybe you could create two more symbols and use a base-8 system. Or leave
one symbols to represent the thousands separator and use a base-7 system.
Hugo Cesar
On Sun, Jul 28, 2013 at 2:54 PM, Emanuelo Arbaro
<emanuelo.arb...@gmail.com>wrote:
> Hi, friends!
>
> I'm creating a conlang, named (temporarily perhaps) «Glotta». I've created
> a conscript, who is a semi-abjad (inspired by the massoretic hebrew
> alphabet).
>
> Based on this alphabet, I want to create a numeral system. Like Hebrew,
> this system have to allow the gematria <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/**
> Gematria <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gematria>>: that is, all word have
> a numerical value too. For example, in Hebrew, ??? (yeled, the child) is
> also the number «26».
>
> My alphabet have 19 consonants, and all the words have three letters: my
> numerical system have to use all the 19 letters and in all places of a
> three-lettered number. I sought a good system, but the results are
> inconclusive. My system is very complicated (it's not a problem /in se/,
> but I prefer simple systems), and all the words have not a numerical value
> (I use the 19 letters, but they can't be in all places, or I use just some
> letters).
>
> Can somebody help me?
>
> Thanks!
> Emanuelo (France).
>
Messages in this topic (3)
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3c. Re: The quest of a good numeral system
Posted by: "Padraic Brown" elemti...@yahoo.com
Date: Sun Jul 28, 2013 12:46 pm ((PDT))
> From: Hugo Cesar de Castro Carneiro <hcesarcas...@gmail.com>
>
> Emanuelo, as I can see, an alphabet must have a specific amount of
> symbols/letters, fot it to allow the gematria.
>
> The hebrew gematria works in a base-10 system (aleph to teth = 1 to 9, yodh
> to tsadi = 10 to 90, qoph to final tsade = 100 to 900).
>
> For the hebrew alphabet to work with a base-10 system, it was needed to add
> 5 new characters (final kaph, mem, nun, pe and tsade). This happens because
> the number of symbols/letters needed in an alphabet for it to allow a
> gematria with a base-10 system is 27 = 3*9 = 3*(10-1) (The 3 represents
> that the alphabet encodes units, tens and hundreds).
I suspect that other sized alphabets can also be used with gematria, or some
form of gematria. A quick search reveals several systems of gematria, used for
several different languages and all sorts of online caluclators.
> So, you first need to know if you want to encode only units, tens and
> hundreds, or even thousands.
>
> Well, to encode units, tens and hundreds you will need 27 symbols for a
> base-10 system, 24 for a base-9, 21 for a base-8 and 18 for a base-7.
>
> Maybe you could create two more symbols and use a base-8 system. Or leave
> one symbols to represent the thousands separator and use a base-7 system.
I don't think it matters what base you use or how many letters you have in your
alphabet / abjad / futhark. What matters is that a number is assigned to a
letter.
>From what I can tell, all they're doing is adding up the resulting numbers and
comparing a given sum with a table of other words or phrases that also add up
to the same sum. After that, it's basically mumbojumbo.
It is certainly entertaining to see what other strange phrases add up to the
same
sum as one's name or a special phrase, but I'd be very reluctant to assign any
real meaning to these findings.
I'd heard of numerology before, but never thought much about it. Sounds like
some daft philosophy they'd go for in some parts of the World... Now, off to
assign numbers to the Avantimannish woemblong!......
Padraic
>
>
> Hugo Cesar
>
>
>
> On Sun, Jul 28, 2013 at 2:54 PM, Emanuelo Arbaro
> <emanuelo.arb...@gmail.com>wrote:
>
>> Hi, friends!
>>
>> I'm creating a conlang, named (temporarily perhaps) «Glotta». I've
> created
>> a conscript, who is a semi-abjad (inspired by the massoretic hebrew
>> alphabet).
>>
>> Based on this alphabet, I want to create a numeral system. Like Hebrew,
>> this system have to allow the gematria <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/**
>> Gematria <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gematria>>: that is, all
> word have
>> a numerical value too. For example, in Hebrew, ??? (yeled, the child) is
>> also the number «26».
>>
>> My alphabet have 19 consonants, and all the words have three letters: my
>> numerical system have to use all the 19 letters and in all places of a
>> three-lettered number. I sought a good system, but the results are
>> inconclusive. My system is very complicated (it's not a problem /in
> se/,
>> but I prefer simple systems), and all the words have not a numerical value
>> (I use the 19 letters, but they can't be in all places, or I use just
> some
>> letters).
>>
>> Can somebody help me?
>>
>> Thanks!
>> Emanuelo (France).
>>
>
Messages in this topic (3)
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4a. Re: Expressing irony/sarcasm morphologically (was: Re: Fwd: "Even if
Posted by: "Padraic Brown" elemti...@yahoo.com
Date: Sun Jul 28, 2013 11:30 am ((PDT))
> From: Lisa Weißbach <purereasonrevoluz...@web.de>
>
> I've read about your finalizers before, and I must say that even though
> they seemed a little unwieldy at first (more speaking effort for apparently
> no semantic gain), the concept has grown on me considerably because they
> turn out to offer so many possibilities of subtle alteration of utterances
> and to gain so many syntactic functions, especially, it seems, in
> combination with the presence or absence of case markers. I feel reminded
> of the French negation particle "pas", which at some point was used
> only as
> a content word but underwent semantic bleaching in order to function as
> part of a grammatical negation marker (and which in the meantime has taken
> on the entire load of negation due to the dropping of "ne" in speech -
> this
> step seems not to have happened yet in Tatari Faran, at least not as
> systematically, probably because there are so many finalizers, where French
> mainly decided on one for general negation purposes).
French used to have several: ne...mie, ne...goutte, ne...point, etc.
> Tl;dr: I really like
> them now, and their ironic use is especially creative! That's certainly a
> constructive way of filling seemingly empty words with useful functions :)
>
> I haven't figured out how to construct irony in my own conlang yet. I can't
> use/expand on your idea because my conlang doesn't have finalizers. I was
> thinking about adding a separate irony marker, say, at the end of sentences
> or as a verbal affix (it's VSO), but this struck me as too obvious, which,
> in my opinion, undermines the whole concept of irony, which is supposed to
> be more implicit.
Exactly. It's like the guy who tells a joke and ends with a dissertation
explaining
the joke -- spoils the effect!
> It would have offered the advantage of marking irony in
> writing, an idea which seems useful at first, especially when thinking
> about online communication. On the other hand, this is what we have smiley
> faces for, so no real gain there either. You'll understand why it had to go.
Indeed, this method of communication I think truly benefits from such markers.
Sometimes real people can be hurt by words misunderstood or poorly marked
for irony / sarcasm / etc. They are relatively inconspicuous and can be placed
in such a way so as to not spoil the overall effect.
Doesn't work in speech so well!
> The next step was to consider one or more of my many existing affixes with
> roughly "affirming" meanings to take on the additional meaning of
> irony,
> but I'm not really happy with any of them yet. These are the ones I
> considered:
>
> 1) ki(t)-: usually indicates sameness or repetition:
> zunsi 'move'
> kikunzi 'repeat, imitate'
> nipuki 'he died'
> nikipuki '?he died again; he really had to go and die, didn't he?'
> This would work perfectly with verbs denoting actions that can by
> definition only be carried out once - a very small range of function.
> Compare it to this:
> nikróki 'he came'
> nikikróki 'he came back (again); ?he really had to come back, didn't
> he?'
> Hm... :-/
It could work if perhaps the language developed another way of saying
the straight "again" while the older one comes more and more to mean
an ironic meaning.
A similar case in point is the English negative. It used to be entirely
normal to negate a verb by appending "not" -- I saw not, I know not,
etc. Anymore, we create a novel negative structure with "do" as a sort
of content-negative dummy verb, plus the negatory particle "-n't" tacked
on: I didn't see, I don't know. So what about V+not? Well, it's still
perfectly valid English, but in ordinary speech its meaning has shifted to
a kind of affected fanciness or an ironic archaism.
This is actually a symptom of a pretty radical alteration within the English
language, and it may not be appropriate for your conlang. Just something
for you to consider!
> 2) si-: usually indicates fullness:
> faink 'bottle'; akur 'room'
> sifaink 'full bottle (of water)'; sikur 'full room (filled with
> people -
> maybe also furniture?)'
> It would be nice to have some more use for this affix, actually; as it is,
> it doesn't crop up too often, although I really like it. Also, I haven't
> used it on verbs so far, so that would be quite an innovation. I'm not too
> sure about the semantics, though - would an affix meaning 'full' really
> turn into a marker of 'he really did'-irony? Seems like quite a long way
> to go.
Could it be used with other, less literal, senses of "full"? Like arrogance
(full of himself), burgeoning spring growth (full of green vigour), drunk-
enness (full of liquor), pregnancy (full with child), etc.?
> 3) -eis-: usually indicates bigness, intensity or intentionality:
> pukosi 'kill'
> pukoseisi 'massacre'
> This might work for verbs with an inherently unintentional meaning in some
> contexts:
> nipuki 'he died'
> nipukeisi 'he really had to go and die, didn't he?'
Yep. He's well and truly dead this time...
> One might misunderstand this as 'he chose death', though.
All the better reason to choose that one! Can lead to all sorts of
interesting wordplay.
> However, my cases
> (volitive vs. patientive) also cover intentionality, so maybe I could shift
> this intentional semantics to case morphology and restrict the affix -eis-
> to the ironic/sarcastic meaning for inherently unintentional verbs? But
> wouldn't this come close to an explicit irony marker again?
I do think it would help if whatever irony marker you settle on also has
one or more "straight" uses. Like the sentence above, he's well and truly
dead, can mean that there is simply no question about the present state
of his body; but it can also take on subtler shades (so to speak) and secondary
meanings that allow ironical subreadings while also freely admitting the
basic straight reading.
> Also, I was
> planning to make this a dialectal difference: dialect A prefers to use case
> morphology for indicating intentionality, whereas dialect B prefers to use
> -eis-. If I assign different meanings to these two methods in the standard
> dialect, that could lead to some pretty drastic cultural
> misunderstandings...
Indeed. This happens in real languages all the time.
> Yet another idea that came to me would be the use of an adjective instead
> of a verb à la:
> nkari puku
> 3.SG-person-VERB death-ADJ
> 'he is a dying one/he is the dying kind'
> nkari terrumpttautlosu
> 3.SG-person-VERB house-sell-ADJ
> 'she was always selling the house'
> But the first example could be misconstrued as simply 'he is a mortal
> man'
> or even 'he is a deadly man', and although these interpretations do
> partly fit the irony to be conveyed, under other aspects they don't.
Great! All the better! Irony is best sown in ground where confusion
and confoundibulation abound! This allows someone to quite frankly
say "he's a mortal man, after all", all the while meaning something
entirely different. That's pretty deep conlangery, that.
Let people take it how they will, and let those who get the ironic
reading enjoy the moment!
> Maybe I could kind of mix and match: nsikari puku? Although that could well
> mean 'he is a full, mortal man' or even 'he is a full (complete?)
> man who
> is mortal' - how about that for an idiomatic way of expressing irony? :-P
> Well, I wonder what my next idea will bring.
Can hardly wait! (No irony at all!)
Padraic
>
> Lisa
>
Messages in this topic (7)
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4b. Re: Expressing irony/sarcasm morphologically (was: Re: Fwd: "Even if
Posted by: "H. S. Teoh" hst...@quickfur.ath.cx
Date: Sun Jul 28, 2013 3:51 pm ((PDT))
On Sun, Jul 28, 2013 at 11:30:38AM -0700, Padraic Brown wrote:
> > From: Lisa Weißbach <purereasonrevoluz...@web.de>
[...]
> > I haven't figured out how to construct irony in my own conlang yet.
> > I can't use/expand on your idea because my conlang doesn't have
> > finalizers. I was thinking about adding a separate irony marker,
> > say, at the end of sentences or as a verbal affix (it's VSO), but
> > this struck me as too obvious, which, in my opinion, undermines the
> > whole concept of irony, which is supposed to be more implicit.
>
> Exactly. It's like the guy who tells a joke and ends with a
> dissertation explaining the joke -- spoils the effect!
Yeah, any marking for irony/sarcasm/etc. should be subtle or at least
not blindingly obvious.
> > It would have offered the advantage of marking irony in writing, an
> > idea which seems useful at first, especially when thinking about
> > online communication. On the other hand, this is what we have smiley
> > faces for, so no real gain there either. You'll understand why it
> > had to go.
>
> Indeed, this method of communication I think truly benefits from such
> markers. Sometimes real people can be hurt by words misunderstood or
> poorly marked for irony / sarcasm / etc. They are relatively
> inconspicuous and can be placed in such a way so as to not spoil the
> overall effect.
>
> Doesn't work in speech so well!
Well, in writing it's a bit more important to have written markers,
because often the cues for irony are extralinguistic -- body language,
modified tone of voice, gestures, etc.. These are absent in writing,
which leads to misunderstandings esp. in an online setting where
communication is pure text, and any cues like intonation, body language,
a twinkle in the eye, etc., aren't included unless you consciously type
a smiley or some such explicit sign.
In speech, there's room for more subtlety because you can insert a
subtle twinkle in the eye or gesture that only those in the know will
pick up -- something rather hard to achieve in a written medium for
irony. (For non-irony one could, of course, employ jargon, but that's
another topic.)
Having said that, though, human language is flexible enough that this
kind of "selective irony" can still work by means of references -- if
your audience includes people from circle A and circle B, you can make a
reference to something only circle A would be aware of, which adds an
extra layer of irony/humour/etc. that circle B is oblivious to.
> > The next step was to consider one or more of my many existing
> > affixes with roughly "affirming" meanings to take on the additional
> > meaning of irony, but I'm not really happy with any of them yet.
> > These are the ones I considered:
> >
> > 1) ki(t)-: usually indicates sameness or repetition:
> > zunsi 'move'
> > kikunzi 'repeat, imitate'
> > nipuki 'he died'
> > nikipuki '?he died again; he really had to go and die, didn't he?'
> > This would work perfectly with verbs denoting actions that can by
> > definition only be carried out once - a very small range of function.
> > Compare it to this:
> > nikróki 'he came'
> > nikikróki 'he came back (again); ?he really had to come back, didn't
> > he?'
> > Hm... :-/
>
> It could work if perhaps the language developed another way of saying
> the straight "again" while the older one comes more and more to mean
> an ironic meaning.
>
> A similar case in point is the English negative. It used to be
> entirely normal to negate a verb by appending "not" -- I saw not, I
> know not, etc. Anymore, we create a novel negative structure with "do"
> as a sort of content-negative dummy verb, plus the negatory particle
> "-n't" tacked on: I didn't see, I don't know. So what about V+not?
> Well, it's still perfectly valid English, but in ordinary speech its
> meaning has shifted to a kind of affected fanciness or an ironic
> archaism.
Yeah, if somebody were to ask me something and I replied "I know not"
instead of the more usual "I don't know", it would be taken either as an
odd archaism, or a sign of sarcasm.
Which is why I said in an earlier reply that deliberately switching to
archaic structures can constitute a cue to irony.
> This is actually a symptom of a pretty radical alteration within the
> English language, and it may not be appropriate for your conlang. Just
> something for you to consider!
Well, that specific construction is probably too English-specific to be
of use in a conlang, but if you constructed your conlang with diachronic
change in mind (even if you didn't *actually* build it by way of
diachronic change), you should have plenty of material to use for these
hiding-in-plain-sight irony cues.
In Tatari Faran, I've inserted a number of hints at archaic language
structures / words, even though I haven't actually used it for marking
irony, but if I wanted to, I could probably find a lot of material to
use. One thing that came to mind is the ancient word _fii_ "heavens",
which has since been replaced by _sinkan_ "daytime sky" and _panikan_
"nighttime sky". The word _fii_ is no longer in common use, but it still
survives in some words, such as the finalizer _fai_, which is paired
with the verb _tuharas_ "to have a plinian eruption", carrying the force
of "erupting to the heavens". Another relic is in the word _fiiranas_,
which is the number 3125 (i.e. 5^5: TF uses a base-5 counting system).
Its original meaning refers to a number so large it reaches the heavens,
and it is still used in that approximate sense sometimes. Its exact
value of 3125 is something layered on top later. This double meaning
allows occasion for, say, a spokesperson to crack jokes about the
heavens when speaking to an audience of 3000+.
> > 2) si-: usually indicates fullness:
> > faink 'bottle'; akur 'room'
> > sifaink 'full bottle (of water)'; sikur 'full room (filled with
> > people -
> > maybe also furniture?)'
> > It would be nice to have some more use for this affix, actually; as
> > it is, it doesn't crop up too often, although I really like it.
> > Also, I haven't used it on verbs so far, so that would be quite an
> > innovation. I'm not too sure about the semantics, though - would an
> > affix meaning 'full' really turn into a marker of 'he really
> > did'-irony? Seems like quite a long way to go.
>
> Could it be used with other, less literal, senses of "full"? Like
> arrogance (full of himself), burgeoning spring growth (full of green
> vigour), drunk- enness (full of liquor), pregnancy (full with child),
> etc.?
"He is full of heroism" -- i.e., he's trying a bit too hard to impress
somebody.
> > 3) -eis-: usually indicates bigness, intensity or intentionality:
> > pukosi 'kill'
> > pukoseisi 'massacre'
> > This might work for verbs with an inherently unintentional meaning in some
> > contexts:
> > nipuki 'he died'
> > nipukeisi 'he really had to go and die, didn't he?'
>
> Yep. He's well and truly dead this time...
>
> > One might misunderstand this as 'he chose death', though.
>
> All the better reason to choose that one! Can lead to all sorts of
> interesting wordplay.
It would be better IMO to use a phrase that is close to, but
deliberately contradicts the situation at hand. The defining
characteristic of irony is that the literal meaning of what is said
doesn't match what is meant; one way to hint at it is to say something
that (obviously or subtly) contradicts the plain facts of the situation.
If someone has a reputation of proclaiming he will live in spite of
taking dangerous risks, then upon his untimely death one could say "now
he *really* lives" as an irony. (Though how that is interpreted will
depend on the cultural norms of the native speakers -- they may
interpret that as something offensive.)
> > However, my cases (volitive vs. patientive) also cover
> > intentionality, so maybe I could shift this intentional semantics to
> > case morphology and restrict the affix -eis- to the ironic/sarcastic
> > meaning for inherently unintentional verbs? But wouldn't this come
> > close to an explicit irony marker again?
>
> I do think it would help if whatever irony marker you settle on also
> has one or more "straight" uses. Like the sentence above, he's well
> and truly dead, can mean that there is simply no question about the
> present state of his body; but it can also take on subtler shades (so
> to speak) and secondary meanings that allow ironical subreadings while
> also freely admitting the basic straight reading.
Like if you have an archaic term for "death", you could use that in
place of the normal word as a hint of irony.
[...]
> > Yet another idea that came to me would be the use of an adjective instead
> > of a verb à la:
> > nkari puku
> > 3.SG-person-VERB death-ADJ
> > 'he is a dying one/he is the dying kind'
> > nkari terrumpttautlosu
> > 3.SG-person-VERB house-sell-ADJ
> > 'she was always selling the house'
> > But the first example could be misconstrued as simply 'he is a mortal
> > man'
> > or even 'he is a deadly man', and although these interpretations do
> > partly fit the irony to be conveyed, under other aspects they don't.
>
> Great! All the better! Irony is best sown in ground where confusion
> and confoundibulation abound! This allows someone to quite frankly
> say "he's a mortal man, after all", all the while meaning something
> entirely different. That's pretty deep conlangery, that.
[...]
There's an especially strong hint of irony if the phrase "he's a mortal
man, after all" is spoken of someone who perhaps boasted of their
nigh-invincibility while still alive.
T
--
Marketing: the art of convincing people to pay for what they didn't need before
which you can't deliver after.
Messages in this topic (7)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
5a. Conlang Profanity
Posted by: "Don Boozer" librarian....@gmail.com
Date: Sun Jul 28, 2013 2:06 pm ((PDT))
I'm writing a review of Holy Sh*t: A Brief History of Swearing by Melissa
Mohr (published by Oxford Univ Press, 2013) for Fiat Lingua (
http://fiatlingua.org). However, as part of that review I'm planning on
looking at it's implications and uses for constructing languages, worlds,
and cultures. And, as part of that, swearing in existing conlangs (both
well known (e.g., Esperanto, Dothraki) and personal ones).
With that, if anyone would like to share any profanity, vulgarisms, "vain
oaths", etc., that they have included in their conlangs or con-cultures, I
would be happy to hear about them. If anyone is familiar with Esperanto
swearing, that would be interesting as well. I've dug around on the web and
on the Conlang-L archives, but it doesn't appear there is an overabundance
of people willing to talk about this area of conlanging (or at least hasn't
been for a few years).
The article is due on Fiat Lingua for Sept. 1.
Thanks,
Don Boozer
Messages in this topic (5)
________________________________________________________________________
5b. Re: Conlang Profanity
Posted by: "yuri" yur...@gmail.com
Date: Sun Jul 28, 2013 2:39 pm ((PDT))
On 29 July 2013 08:56, Don Boozer wrote:
> With that, if anyone would like to share any profanity, vulgarisms, "vain
> oaths", etc., that they have included in their conlangs or con-cultures,
The only "profanity" I have coined so far is Xezjbek (or khezhbek,
depending on transliteration scheme) which literally means "utter
contempt" as in "Nomiy ka zoy m'g Xezjbek" (I hold you in contempt).
Due to the throaty gutteral consonant at the beginning of "Xezjbek" it
sounds quite aggressive when you spit the word out with a snarl, much
more so than the same word in English.
Yuri
Messages in this topic (5)
________________________________________________________________________
5c. Re: Conlang Profanity
Posted by: "Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews" goldyemo...@gmail.com
Date: Sun Jul 28, 2013 3:45 pm ((PDT))
I need to come up with a list, especially since Yemora is an uncensored
world.
I've sent through the book title in hopes that it can be digitally recorded.
I'll also check Wikipedia.
I've come up with Oh, dragon dung.
What are you looking for?
Mellissa Green
@GreenNovelist
-----Original Message-----
From: Constructed Languages List [mailto:conl...@listserv.brown.edu] On
Behalf Of Don Boozer
Sent: Sunday, July 28, 2013 4:56 PM
To: conl...@listserv.brown.edu
Subject: Conlang Profanity
I'm writing a review of Holy Sh*t: A Brief History of Swearing by Melissa
Mohr (published by Oxford Univ Press, 2013) for Fiat Lingua (
http://fiatlingua.org). However, as part of that review I'm planning on
looking at it's implications and uses for constructing languages, worlds,
and cultures. And, as part of that, swearing in existing conlangs (both
well known (e.g., Esperanto, Dothraki) and personal ones).
With that, if anyone would like to share any profanity, vulgarisms, "vain
oaths", etc., that they have included in their conlangs or con-cultures, I
would be happy to hear about them. If anyone is familiar with Esperanto
swearing, that would be interesting as well. I've dug around on the web and
on the Conlang-L archives, but it doesn't appear there is an overabundance
of people willing to talk about this area of conlanging (or at least hasn't
been for a few years).
The article is due on Fiat Lingua for Sept. 1.
Thanks,
Don Boozer
Messages in this topic (5)
________________________________________________________________________
5d. Re: Conlang Profanity
Posted by: "Nina-Kristine Johnson" ninakristi...@gmail.com
Date: Sun Jul 28, 2013 4:05 pm ((PDT))
Hiya!
'Ay pæško!' is 'Oh..[enter expletive, here]!'
P*æško* means either S***, F***, H***. Its a multi-purpose swear word.
The *-a* is a short *a* sound. (Pa-sh-koh)
I also have (might be unlisted in my glossary, though): *Ka*š*itų* (*
Kah-shee-too* or Ba****) and *Beina* (*Bay-ee-nah* or B***h).
Tisala-e! (Cheers!),
Kristine
On 28 July 2013 13:56, Don Boozer <librarian....@gmail.com> wrote:
> I'm writing a review of Holy Sh*t: A Brief History of Swearing by Melissa
> Mohr (published by Oxford Univ Press, 2013) for Fiat Lingua (
> http://fiatlingua.org). However, as part of that review I'm planning on
> looking at it's implications and uses for constructing languages, worlds,
> and cultures. And, as part of that, swearing in existing conlangs (both
> well known (e.g., Esperanto, Dothraki) and personal ones).
>
> With that, if anyone would like to share any profanity, vulgarisms, "vain
> oaths", etc., that they have included in their conlangs or con-cultures, I
> would be happy to hear about them. If anyone is familiar with Esperanto
> swearing, that would be interesting as well. I've dug around on the web and
> on the Conlang-L archives, but it doesn't appear there is an overabundance
> of people willing to talk about this area of conlanging (or at least hasn't
> been for a few years).
>
> The article is due on Fiat Lingua for Sept. 1.
>
> Thanks,
> Don Boozer
>
Messages in this topic (5)
________________________________________________________________________
5e. Re: Conlang Profanity
Posted by: "Don" librarian....@gmail.com
Date: Sun Jul 28, 2013 4:24 pm ((PDT))
Checked Wikipedia. There's a nice article on profanity in scifi.
Just looking for how conlangers and conworlders have handled the issue of
profanity and swearing. Just calques of English (i.e., "conlang word" = f*ck,
etc.) or conculturally-relevant profanity.
Don
On Jul 28, 2013, at 6:44 PM, Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews
<goldyemo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I need to come up with a list, especially since Yemora is an uncensored
> world.
>
> I've sent through the book title in hopes that it can be digitally recorded.
>
> I'll also check Wikipedia.
>
> I've come up with Oh, dragon dung.
>
> What are you looking for?
>
>
> Mellissa Green
>
>
> @GreenNovelist
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Constructed Languages List [mailto:conl...@listserv.brown.edu] On
> Behalf Of Don Boozer
> Sent: Sunday, July 28, 2013 4:56 PM
> To: conl...@listserv.brown.edu
> Subject: Conlang Profanity
>
> I'm writing a review of Holy Sh*t: A Brief History of Swearing by Melissa
> Mohr (published by Oxford Univ Press, 2013) for Fiat Lingua (
> http://fiatlingua.org). However, as part of that review I'm planning on
> looking at it's implications and uses for constructing languages, worlds,
> and cultures. And, as part of that, swearing in existing conlangs (both
> well known (e.g., Esperanto, Dothraki) and personal ones).
>
> With that, if anyone would like to share any profanity, vulgarisms, "vain
> oaths", etc., that they have included in their conlangs or con-cultures, I
> would be happy to hear about them. If anyone is familiar with Esperanto
> swearing, that would be interesting as well. I've dug around on the web and
> on the Conlang-L archives, but it doesn't appear there is an overabundance
> of people willing to talk about this area of conlanging (or at least hasn't
> been for a few years).
>
> The article is due on Fiat Lingua for Sept. 1.
>
> Thanks,
> Don Boozer
Messages in this topic (5)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
6. 2 Asirkan proverbs:
Posted by: "Scott Villanueva-Hlad" scotth...@telus.net
Date: Sun Jul 28, 2013 4:12 pm ((PDT))
Het gamgoram ohat euliekicom so¶utucia or vamysdi.
[the cougar must].accusative [must feed].verb [(the one who)
lives].participle [in].preposition [(the) forest].noun
Translation: He who lives in the forest must feed the cougar.
Ñette sy¶etory laloutcia ailet.
Little.adverb announce.verb.perfective say.participle.imperfective
much.adverb
Translation: He who talks much says little.
Messages in this topic (1)
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