There are 15 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1a. Re: Ṫirdonic, my first serious conlang
From: Cosman246
1b. Re: Ṫirdonic, my first serious conlang
From: Padraic Brown
1c. Re: Ṫirdonic, my first serious conlang
From: Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews
1d. Re: Ṫirdonic, my first serious conlang
From: Cosman246
2a. Re: Ṫirdonic, my first serious conlang
From: Daniel Bowman
3a. Re: Audio language game
From: Larry Sulky
4a. Anglicizing Your Conlang's Autoglottonym
From: Zach Wellstood
4b. Re: Anglicizing Your Conlang's Autoglottonym
From: DM
4c. Re: Anglicizing Your Conlang's Autoglottonym
From: Padraic Brown
4d. Re: Anglicizing Your Conlang's Autoglottonym
From: Roger Mills
4e. Re: Anglicizing Your Conlang's Autoglottonym
From: C. Brickner
4f. Re: Anglicizing Your Conlang's Autoglottonym
From: H. S. Teoh
4g. Re: Anglicizing Your Conlang's Autoglottonym
From: Cosman246
5a. Re: USAGE: New english conjunction?
From: Roger Mills
6a. Re: Choosing a word for "German"
From: C. Brickner
Messages
________________________________________________________________________
1a. Re: Ṫirdonic, my first serious conlang
Posted by: "Cosman246" yashtuls...@gmail.com
Date: Sun Sep 8, 2013 4:25 pm ((PDT))
Thank you!
I will respond to the rest of the email once I can recover my file (long
story short, this is a back-up version, my original TeX file has vanished
so I am attempting to reconstruct it from this and memory).
Yes, it is inspired by PIE.
How would you suggest I improve the nominal morphology?
-Yash Tulsyan
On Sun, Sep 8, 2013 at 4:12 PM, Padraic Brown <elemti...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > I am Yash, a relatively new conlanger (and a student of linguistics at
> UW),
>
> > though I've lurked on this list for a while. I have thus linked here my
> > first conlang that I feel I will continue with, Ṫirdonic. (The most
> recent
> > version, not reflected here, normalizes the stress to first-syllable,
> > because I was tired of trying to work with that and wanted to polish it
> up
> > and perhaps move on to a daughter language) Any suggestions for
> > improvement (or for the daughter language) would be greatly appreciated
>
> First: thanks for the back story! That really helps one to imagine the
> speakers
> as actual people, with a real place in the world and a history behind (and
> presumably ahead) of them.
>
> Second: pretty nice presentation. I do like reference grammars that are all
> nice and laid out in sections that way. In general, I really like nice
> little boxed
> charts showing all the grammatical bits, but the layout of the lexicon is
> a bit
> tedious. Just my opinion, but I really don't think you need, and as your
> language(s)
> evolve, will probably not want to have, the lexicon laid out in three
> parallel
> columns this way. Just something like " bes. N.i. harvest " should
> suffice. Easier
> for you to edit, easier for me to read. Easier to copy and paste as well.
>
> The reason you may want to change from
> a boxy chart to simple text is: what happens when you come across a word
> that
> comes in two parts of speech? Rather than add a line, you could simply
> line up
> all the different forms under a single entry. For example, from
> Avantimannish:
> leuqen. II.v. lock, secure, hold fast; fight (i.e., lock horns); T.v.
> look, glance. This
> tells you that the verb has both a strong variant (the II form) and a weak
> variant
> (the T variant). ênenasse. indecl.n. oneness, togetherness; te ênenasse ==
> adv.
> together tells you that the indeclinable noun can also be used as an
> adverb (in conj.
> with an appropriate preposition).
>
> Also, freeing yourself from the boxes will allow you to expand upon
> your definitions. Rather than just telling me that bel means strong, you
> might
> discover that it is actually means "physically strong" when applied to
> men, but
> "faithful and wise" when applied to women and "aggressive and rampant" when
> applied to domesticated animals. A completely different word might mean
> "strong" when applied to wild animals, like oliphants.
>
> At first glance, the nominal morphology strikes me as extremely regular.
> That might
> be fine and dandy for a 19th century ophthalmologist of some note, but for
> the
> naturalistic language of a bunch of wandering barbarians, this might be a
> tad too regular!
>
> Haven't looked at the verbs and so forth yet.
>
> Question: I see your example text is Schleicher's Tale, and it looks like
> a number of
> words are IE in inspiration. Is Tirdonic supposed to be an IE language, or
> some kind
> of sister to it? Or just taking inspiration from?
>
> Padraic
>
> >
> > http://unnamedconworld.files.wordpress.com/2013/06/grammar2.pdf
> >
> > -Yash Tulsyan
> >
>
Messages in this topic (12)
________________________________________________________________________
1b. Re: Ṫirdonic, my first serious conlang
Posted by: "Padraic Brown" elemti...@yahoo.com
Date: Sun Sep 8, 2013 5:23 pm ((PDT))
> How would you suggest I improve the nominal morphology?
I'm only suggesting that natural languages *tend to* have irregularities,
multiple
declensions, defective nouns (those that only decline in one category, or lack
certain others). Especially since you've declared some I-E inspiration!
For example, as I recall, all your ergative case markers are the same regardless
of number, and regardless of whether it is a noun or pronoun. Often, nouns and
pronouns will decline differently. Also, case forms usually differ between
numbers.
Some times, different genders will decline a little differently as well.
Just some things to think about.
Padraic
>
> -Yash Tulsyan
>
>
> On Sun, Sep 8, 2013 at 4:12 PM, Padraic Brown <elemti...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> > I am Yash, a relatively new conlanger (and a student of linguistics at
>> UW),
>>
>> > though I've lurked on this list for a while. I have thus linked
> here my
>> > first conlang that I feel I will continue with, Ṫirdonic. (The most
>> recent
>> > version, not reflected here, normalizes the stress to first-syllable,
>> > because I was tired of trying to work with that and wanted to polish
> it
>> up
>> > and perhaps move on to a daughter language) Any suggestions for
>> > improvement (or for the daughter language) would be greatly
> appreciated
>>
>> First: thanks for the back story! That really helps one to imagine the
>> speakers
>> as actual people, with a real place in the world and a history behind (and
>> presumably ahead) of them.
>>
>> Second: pretty nice presentation. I do like reference grammars that are all
>> nice and laid out in sections that way. In general, I really like nice
>> little boxed
>> charts showing all the grammatical bits, but the layout of the lexicon is
>> a bit
>> tedious. Just my opinion, but I really don't think you need, and as
> your
>> language(s)
>> evolve, will probably not want to have, the lexicon laid out in three
>> parallel
>> columns this way. Just something like " bes. N.i. harvest "
> should
>> suffice. Easier
>> for you to edit, easier for me to read. Easier to copy and paste as well.
>>
>> The reason you may want to change from
>> a boxy chart to simple text is: what happens when you come across a word
>> that
>> comes in two parts of speech? Rather than add a line, you could simply
>> line up
>> all the different forms under a single entry. For example, from
>> Avantimannish:
>> leuqen. II.v. lock, secure, hold fast; fight (i.e., lock horns); T.v.
>> look, glance. This
>> tells you that the verb has both a strong variant (the II form) and a weak
>> variant
>> (the T variant). ênenasse. indecl.n. oneness, togetherness; te ênenasse ==
>> adv.
>> together tells you that the indeclinable noun can also be used as an
>> adverb (in conj.
>> with an appropriate preposition).
>>
>> Also, freeing yourself from the boxes will allow you to expand upon
>> your definitions. Rather than just telling me that bel means strong, you
>> might
>> discover that it is actually means "physically strong" when
> applied to
>> men, but
>> "faithful and wise" when applied to women and "aggressive
> and rampant" when
>> applied to domesticated animals. A completely different word might mean
>> "strong" when applied to wild animals, like oliphants.
>>
>> At first glance, the nominal morphology strikes me as extremely regular.
>> That might
>> be fine and dandy for a 19th century ophthalmologist of some note, but for
>> the
>> naturalistic language of a bunch of wandering barbarians, this might be a
>> tad too regular!
>>
>> Haven't looked at the verbs and so forth yet.
>>
>> Question: I see your example text is Schleicher's Tale, and it looks
> like
>> a number of
>> words are IE in inspiration. Is Tirdonic supposed to be an IE language, or
>> some kind
>> of sister to it? Or just taking inspiration from?
>>
>> Padraic
>>
>> >
>> > http://unnamedconworld.files.wordpress.com/2013/06/grammar2.pdf
>> >
>> > -Yash Tulsyan
>> >
>>
>
Messages in this topic (12)
________________________________________________________________________
1c. Re: Ṫirdonic, my first serious conlang
Posted by: "Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews" goldyemo...@gmail.com
Date: Sun Sep 8, 2013 5:25 pm ((PDT))
The text version would be better, even though the .pdf file is accessible, I
may want to comment in text. Also, how many consonants are there, and vowels?
Maybe two separate tables, so actually maybe .docx would work better. Or you
could have a screen reader version and a non-screen reader version.
Mellissa Green
@GreenNovelist
-----Original Message-----
From: Constructed Languages List [mailto:conl...@listserv.brown.edu] On Behalf
Of Cosman246
Sent: Sunday, September 8, 2013 7:25 PM
To: conl...@listserv.brown.edu
Subject: Re: Ṫirdonic, my first serious conlang
Thank you!
I will respond to the rest of the email once I can recover my file (long
story short, this is a back-up version, my original TeX file has vanished
so I am attempting to reconstruct it from this and memory).
Yes, it is inspired by PIE.
How would you suggest I improve the nominal morphology?
-Yash Tulsyan
On Sun, Sep 8, 2013 at 4:12 PM, Padraic Brown <elemti...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > I am Yash, a relatively new conlanger (and a student of linguistics at
> UW),
>
> > though I've lurked on this list for a while. I have thus linked here my
> > first conlang that I feel I will continue with, Ṫirdonic. (The most
> recent
> > version, not reflected here, normalizes the stress to first-syllable,
> > because I was tired of trying to work with that and wanted to polish it
> up
> > and perhaps move on to a daughter language) Any suggestions for
> > improvement (or for the daughter language) would be greatly appreciated
>
> First: thanks for the back story! That really helps one to imagine the
> speakers
> as actual people, with a real place in the world and a history behind (and
> presumably ahead) of them.
>
> Second: pretty nice presentation. I do like reference grammars that are all
> nice and laid out in sections that way. In general, I really like nice
> little boxed
> charts showing all the grammatical bits, but the layout of the lexicon is
> a bit
> tedious. Just my opinion, but I really don't think you need, and as your
> language(s)
> evolve, will probably not want to have, the lexicon laid out in three
> parallel
> columns this way. Just something like " bes. N.i. harvest " should
> suffice. Easier
> for you to edit, easier for me to read. Easier to copy and paste as well.
>
> The reason you may want to change from
> a boxy chart to simple text is: what happens when you come across a word
> that
> comes in two parts of speech? Rather than add a line, you could simply
> line up
> all the different forms under a single entry. For example, from
> Avantimannish:
> leuqen. II.v. lock, secure, hold fast; fight (i.e., lock horns); T.v.
> look, glance. This
> tells you that the verb has both a strong variant (the II form) and a weak
> variant
> (the T variant). ênenasse. indecl.n. oneness, togetherness; te ênenasse ==
> adv.
> together tells you that the indeclinable noun can also be used as an
> adverb (in conj.
> with an appropriate preposition).
>
> Also, freeing yourself from the boxes will allow you to expand upon
> your definitions. Rather than just telling me that bel means strong, you
> might
> discover that it is actually means "physically strong" when applied to
> men, but
> "faithful and wise" when applied to women and "aggressive and rampant" when
> applied to domesticated animals. A completely different word might mean
> "strong" when applied to wild animals, like oliphants.
>
> At first glance, the nominal morphology strikes me as extremely regular.
> That might
> be fine and dandy for a 19th century ophthalmologist of some note, but for
> the
> naturalistic language of a bunch of wandering barbarians, this might be a
> tad too regular!
>
> Haven't looked at the verbs and so forth yet.
>
> Question: I see your example text is Schleicher's Tale, and it looks like
> a number of
> words are IE in inspiration. Is Tirdonic supposed to be an IE language, or
> some kind
> of sister to it? Or just taking inspiration from?
>
> Padraic
>
> >
> > http://unnamedconworld.files.wordpress.com/2013/06/grammar2.pdf
> >
> > -Yash Tulsyan
> >
>
Messages in this topic (12)
________________________________________________________________________
1d. Re: Ṫirdonic, my first serious conlang
Posted by: "Cosman246" yashtuls...@gmail.com
Date: Sun Sep 8, 2013 5:38 pm ((PDT))
Sorry, I should have clarified. It's a LaTeX version, not a text version,
so it has some markup. Also, I don't have Microsoft Word (being a GNU/Linux
user), so making a .docx, while still doable, would take some time and be
something I do once I feel I'm sufficiently "done" with it.
As to consonants and vowels, it has 23 consonants, 5 vowels.
-Yash Tulsyan
On Sun, Sep 8, 2013 at 5:25 PM, Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews <
goldyemo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> The text version would be better, even though the .pdf file is accessible,
> I may want to comment in text. Also, how many consonants are there, and
> vowels? Maybe two separate tables, so actually maybe .docx would work
> better. Or you could have a screen reader version and a non-screen reader
> version.
>
>
> Mellissa Green
>
>
> @GreenNovelist
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Constructed Languages List [mailto:conl...@listserv.brown.edu] On
> Behalf Of Cosman246
> Sent: Sunday, September 8, 2013 7:25 PM
> To: conl...@listserv.brown.edu
> Subject: Re: Ṫirdonic, my first serious conlang
>
> Thank you!
>
> I will respond to the rest of the email once I can recover my file (long
> story short, this is a back-up version, my original TeX file has vanished
> so I am attempting to reconstruct it from this and memory).
>
> Yes, it is inspired by PIE.
>
> How would you suggest I improve the nominal morphology?
>
> -Yash Tulsyan
>
>
> On Sun, Sep 8, 2013 at 4:12 PM, Padraic Brown <elemti...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > > I am Yash, a relatively new conlanger (and a student of linguistics at
> > UW),
> >
> > > though I've lurked on this list for a while. I have thus linked here my
> > > first conlang that I feel I will continue with, Ṫirdonic. (The most
> > recent
> > > version, not reflected here, normalizes the stress to first-syllable,
> > > because I was tired of trying to work with that and wanted to polish it
> > up
> > > and perhaps move on to a daughter language) Any suggestions for
> > > improvement (or for the daughter language) would be greatly
> appreciated
> >
> > First: thanks for the back story! That really helps one to imagine the
> > speakers
> > as actual people, with a real place in the world and a history behind
> (and
> > presumably ahead) of them.
> >
> > Second: pretty nice presentation. I do like reference grammars that are
> all
> > nice and laid out in sections that way. In general, I really like nice
> > little boxed
> > charts showing all the grammatical bits, but the layout of the lexicon is
> > a bit
> > tedious. Just my opinion, but I really don't think you need, and as your
> > language(s)
> > evolve, will probably not want to have, the lexicon laid out in three
> > parallel
> > columns this way. Just something like " bes. N.i. harvest " should
> > suffice. Easier
> > for you to edit, easier for me to read. Easier to copy and paste as well.
> >
> > The reason you may want to change from
> > a boxy chart to simple text is: what happens when you come across a word
> > that
> > comes in two parts of speech? Rather than add a line, you could simply
> > line up
> > all the different forms under a single entry. For example, from
> > Avantimannish:
> > leuqen. II.v. lock, secure, hold fast; fight (i.e., lock horns); T.v.
> > look, glance. This
> > tells you that the verb has both a strong variant (the II form) and a
> weak
> > variant
> > (the T variant). ênenasse. indecl.n. oneness, togetherness; te ênenasse
> ==
> > adv.
> > together tells you that the indeclinable noun can also be used as an
> > adverb (in conj.
> > with an appropriate preposition).
> >
> > Also, freeing yourself from the boxes will allow you to expand upon
> > your definitions. Rather than just telling me that bel means strong, you
> > might
> > discover that it is actually means "physically strong" when applied to
> > men, but
> > "faithful and wise" when applied to women and "aggressive and rampant"
> when
> > applied to domesticated animals. A completely different word might mean
> > "strong" when applied to wild animals, like oliphants.
> >
> > At first glance, the nominal morphology strikes me as extremely regular.
> > That might
> > be fine and dandy for a 19th century ophthalmologist of some note, but
> for
> > the
> > naturalistic language of a bunch of wandering barbarians, this might be a
> > tad too regular!
> >
> > Haven't looked at the verbs and so forth yet.
> >
> > Question: I see your example text is Schleicher's Tale, and it looks like
> > a number of
> > words are IE in inspiration. Is Tirdonic supposed to be an IE language,
> or
> > some kind
> > of sister to it? Or just taking inspiration from?
> >
> > Padraic
> >
> > >
> > > http://unnamedconworld.files.wordpress.com/2013/06/grammar2.pdf
> > >
> > > -Yash Tulsyan
> > >
> >
>
Messages in this topic (12)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
2a. Re: Ṫirdonic, my first serious conlang
Posted by: "Daniel Bowman" danny.c.bow...@gmail.com
Date: Sun Sep 8, 2013 5:57 pm ((PDT))
Hi Yash,
Welcome to the list, and to conlanging! I like the scholarly style of your
presentation. I also believe you did it in LaTeX, am I right? I've been
thinking of doing something similar for my conlang Angosey and seeing your
work is doubly inspiring.
I'm curious - have you done much translation or writing in Tirdonic yet?
Angosey had a similar tense system (far past, past, future, far future) but
I found that I discarded the far future after a while and the far past
morphed into a sort of narrative marker.
Also - UW is a great school and a lot of fun. I spent a couple of summers
there and almost transferred.
Danny
2013/9/8 Cosman246 <yashtuls...@gmail.com>
> Hello,
>
> I am Yash, a relatively new conlanger (and a student of linguistics at UW),
> though I've lurked on this list for a while. I have thus linked here my
> first conlang that I feel I will continue with, Ṫirdonic. (The most recent
> version, not reflected here, normalizes the stress to first-syllable,
> because I was tired of trying to work with that and wanted to polish it up
> and perhaps move on to a daughter language) Any suggestions for
> improvement (or for the daughter language) would be greatly appreciated
>
> http://unnamedconworld.files.wordpress.com/2013/06/grammar2.pdf
>
> -Yash Tulsyan
>
Messages in this topic (12)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
3a. Re: Audio language game
Posted by: "Larry Sulky" larrysu...@gmail.com
Date: Sun Sep 8, 2013 6:01 pm ((PDT))
Huh. And here I've been wishing I could trade my flying superpower for a
language detection superpower. Isn't that always the way?!
On 8 September 2013 04:14, Sam Stutter <samjj...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 850 in one attempt - but, then again "guessing what language someone
> speaks" has always been by unique (and utterly useless) superpower. I'd
> prefer my superpower to be flying, but hey.
>
> Sam Stutter
> samjj...@gmail.com
> "No e na'l cu barri"
>
> On 8 Sep 2013, at 01:59, Leonardo Castro <leolucas1...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > First try, score 450.
> >
> > Até mais!
> >
> > Leonardo
> >
> >
> > 2013/9/7 Herman Miller <hmil...@prismnet.com>:
> >> On 9/7/2013 9:48 AM, Douglas Koller wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> Date: Fri, 6 Sep 2013 20:11:14 -0400
> >>>> From: p...@phillipdriscoll.com
> >>>> Subject: Audio language game
> >>>> To: conl...@listserv.brown.edu
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> Has anyone here tried this game?
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> http://greatlanguagegame.com/
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Fun stuff! Though, it seemed like if Norwegian was an option, it was
> >>> always Norwegian. :)
> >>>
> >>> Kou
> >>
> >>
> >> I keep guessing wrong on Samoan. Next time I don't recognize a language,
> >> I'll guess Samoan.
>
--
*Another world is not only possible, she is on her way. On a quiet day I
can hear her breathing. -- Arundhati Roy*
Messages in this topic (7)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
4a. Anglicizing Your Conlang's Autoglottonym
Posted by: "Zach Wellstood" zwellst...@gmail.com
Date: Sun Sep 8, 2013 7:25 pm ((PDT))
Hi all,
(if this has been discussed elsewhere, please link me. I haven't seen it.)
I haven't ever had an anglicized autoglottonym for my conlang, łaá siri,
but recently I've been considering coining one. Not only is it unwieldy to
type that <ł>, but saying it to those who don't understand sounds of other
languages is too: /ɬɑꜛɑ siri/.
I don't think that an English translation would sound right ("Language of
the Sky People"?). Too long-winded and RPG-sounding for my purposes.
So I think the best way is to decide on a name like Siric (which wouldn't
make sense in the conlang, really, but is an option) or maybe Lhaa
(pronounced like /laa/). Maybe just retaining it as Lhaa Siri but, to be
honest, it's aesthetically unappealing to me (kind of a butchery with my
knowledge of the language).
But how have others done this? It seems quite complicated to me.
Best,
Zach
raa'lalí 'aa! - [sirisaá! <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conlang>]
Messages in this topic (7)
________________________________________________________________________
4b. Re: Anglicizing Your Conlang's Autoglottonym
Posted by: "DM" decadent.muf...@gmail.com
Date: Sun Sep 8, 2013 7:35 pm ((PDT))
Generally, I use my knowledge of English sounds to construct an
approximation of what I believe a native english speaker would write down
were they to hear the language's 'autoglottonym', as you call it, spoken
aloud. (I tend to refer to it as a selfname.) Lhaa Siri looks basically
like what I would come up with, given the phonetic rendering you provided.
:)
To me, Lhaa Siri sounds like an excellent choice, but it is of course your
conlang, and you may do whatever you wish with it.
On Sun, Sep 8, 2013 at 10:24 PM, Zach Wellstood <zwellst...@gmail.com>wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> (if this has been discussed elsewhere, please link me. I haven't seen it.)
>
> I haven't ever had an anglicized autoglottonym for my conlang, łaá siri,
> but recently I've been considering coining one. Not only is it unwieldy to
> type that <ł>, but saying it to those who don't understand sounds of other
> languages is too: /ɬɑꜛɑ siri/.
>
> I don't think that an English translation would sound right ("Language of
> the Sky People"?). Too long-winded and RPG-sounding for my purposes.
>
> So I think the best way is to decide on a name like Siric (which wouldn't
> make sense in the conlang, really, but is an option) or maybe Lhaa
> (pronounced like /laa/). Maybe just retaining it as Lhaa Siri but, to be
> honest, it's aesthetically unappealing to me (kind of a butchery with my
> knowledge of the language).
>
> But how have others done this? It seems quite complicated to me.
>
> Best,
> Zach
>
>
> raa'lalí 'aa! - [sirisaá! <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conlang>]
>
Messages in this topic (7)
________________________________________________________________________
4c. Re: Anglicizing Your Conlang's Autoglottonym
Posted by: "Padraic Brown" elemti...@yahoo.com
Date: Sun Sep 8, 2013 7:57 pm ((PDT))
> (if this has been discussed elsewhere, please link me. I haven't seen it.)
>
> I haven't ever had an anglicized autoglottonym for my conlang, łaá siri,
Nor am I really certain why they would have one...
To my way of thinking, an Anglification is really only useful for English
speakers, not for the people who speak the other language being named.
I mean, we call Deutsch "German". Why would the Germans want or need
to take that name, "German" and use it for any purposes other than using
it in an English language context, or describing how us foreigners call their
language. They would have no more use for it, auf Deutsch, than we would
for the French word "Anglais".
That said...
> but recently I've been considering coining one. Not only is it unwieldy to
> type that <ł>, but saying it to those who don't understand sounds of
> other languages is too: /ɬɑꜛɑ siri/.
>
> I don't think that an English translation would sound right ("Language
> of the Sky People"?). Too long-winded and RPG-sounding for my purposes.
Quite, though the definition is welcome!
> So I think the best way is to decide on a name like Siric (which wouldn't
> make sense in the conlang, really, but is an option) or maybe Lhaa
> (pronounced like /laa/). Maybe just retaining it as Lhaa Siri but, to be
> honest, it's aesthetically unappealing to me (kind of a butchery with my
> knowledge of the language).
>
> But how have others done this? It seems quite complicated to me.
I thìnk what you're looking for now is simply an Anglicisation, or an English-
friendly version of the native name, not so much a Anglified autoglottonym.
Siric could work. (Sirian might also, but might be confused with Syrian.) I
have always read the name as /la siri/ without any fancy sounds, for whatever
it may be worth to you! :) But again, unless the Sirians come into contact
with English speakers, what use would that form of the name be to them?
I would only note that exonyms of any kind never have to, and probably
most often do nòt "make sense in the conlang". "Anglais" doesn't really
make sense in English (though, in all honesty, most English speakers are
aware of its meaning in French), but that doesn't stop the French from
using a French name for our language! And why should it? It's their language
and they can name ours however they damn well please.
For my part, English never comes in contact with any of my conlangs. They
happen on a different world among different stars, and so there is
no reason to invent an actual English exonym. Generally what I try to do is
either "capture the feel" of some in-world exonym and Anglify that, or else
take a known native name and Anglify that.
Thus, with "Rumeliard", I am capturing the essence of the Avantimannish
exonym for the Rumnian language; and generally, I only use this name within
an Auntimoanian context. In a more general context, I would Anglify the native
name, i.e., Rumnian. With Tallarian, I am simply Anglifying the native name of
the language (tenxxwar talanusa), or perhaps better, the native name of the
people (talaryâs).
None of them would ever use or even have any knowledge of these Anglicisations.
For the World, that wouldn't make any sense at all.
Padraic
>
> Best,
> Zach
>
>
> raa'lalí 'aa! - [sirisaá! <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conlang>]
>
Messages in this topic (7)
________________________________________________________________________
4d. Re: Anglicizing Your Conlang's Autoglottonym
Posted by: "Roger Mills" romi...@yahoo.com
Date: Sun Sep 8, 2013 8:25 pm ((PDT))
Well, Kash [kAS] is the name of my principal conlang; it's simply a
pronounceable version of the native name. When transliterating from Kash text,
however, I use _kaç_ which comes closer to the one sound--one letter nature of
their script. (Years ago, it originally had a Spanish-based transliteration,
because the first contacter was Hispanic, thus Old Span. x was |sh|, j was [x],
the prenasalized semi-voiced stops were mp, nt, nc, nk, but I gave up on that.
________________________________
From: Zach Wellstood <zwellst...@gmail.com>
I haven't ever had an anglicized autoglottonym for my conlang, łaá siri,
but recently I've been considering coining one. Not only is it unwieldy to
type that <ł>, but saying it to those who don't understand sounds of other
languages is too: /ɬɑꜛɑ siri/.
I don't think that an English translation would sound right ("Language of
the Sky People"?). Too long-winded and RPG-sounding for my purposes.
So I think the best way is to decide on a name like Siric (which wouldn't
make sense in the conlang, really, but is an option) or maybe Lhaa
(pronounced like /laa/). Maybe just retaining it as Lhaa Siri but, to be
honest, it's aesthetically unappealing to me (kind of a butchery with my
knowledge of the language).
But how have others done this? It seems quite complicated to me.
Best,
Zach
raa'lalí 'aa! - [sirisaá! <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conlang>]
Messages in this topic (7)
________________________________________________________________________
4e. Re: Anglicizing Your Conlang's Autoglottonym
Posted by: "C. Brickner" tepeyach...@embarqmail.com
Date: Sun Sep 8, 2013 8:49 pm ((PDT))
The Anglicized name “Senjecas” is merely the native name in Latin letters. It
just so happens that the phonemes involved in both renderings are the same;
well, almost. A Sefdaanian would pronounce it as /senjecAs/. A speaker of
English, including me, would pronounce it /sEnjekAs/.
The spelling with <c> is an historical accident. Back in the day, I used <c>
for that phoneme, but later changed it to <k>, well, actually <ĸ>. There are
too many instances of <c> to change them all now. But I think it works.
Charlie
----- Original Message -----
Hi all,
(if this has been discussed elsewhere, please link me. I haven't seen it.)
I haven't ever had an anglicized autoglottonym for my conlang, łaá siri,
but recently I've been considering coining one. Not only is it unwieldy to
type that <ł>, but saying it to those who don't understand sounds of other
languages is too: /ɬɑꜛɑ siri/.
I don't think that an English translation would sound right ("Language of
the Sky People"?). Too long-winded and RPG-sounding for my purposes.
So I think the best way is to decide on a name like Siric (which wouldn't
make sense in the conlang, really, but is an option) or maybe Lhaa
(pronounced like /laa/). Maybe just retaining it as Lhaa Siri but, to be
honest, it's aesthetically unappealing to me (kind of a butchery with my
knowledge of the language).
But how have others done this? It seems quite complicated to me.
Best,
Zach
raa'lalí 'aa! - [sirisaá! <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conlang>]
Messages in this topic (7)
________________________________________________________________________
4f. Re: Anglicizing Your Conlang's Autoglottonym
Posted by: "H. S. Teoh" hst...@quickfur.ath.cx
Date: Sun Sep 8, 2013 10:15 pm ((PDT))
On Sun, Sep 08, 2013 at 10:24:41PM -0400, Zach Wellstood wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> (if this has been discussed elsewhere, please link me. I haven't seen
> it.)
>
> I haven't ever had an anglicized autoglottonym for my conlang, łaá
> siri, but recently I've been considering coining one. Not only is it
> unwieldy to type that <ł>, but saying it to those who don't understand
> sounds of other languages is too: /ɬɑꜛɑ siri/.
>
> I don't think that an English translation would sound right ("Language
> of the Sky People"?). Too long-winded and RPG-sounding for my
> purposes.
>
> So I think the best way is to decide on a name like Siric (which
> wouldn't make sense in the conlang, really, but is an option) or maybe
> Lhaa (pronounced like /laa/). Maybe just retaining it as Lhaa Siri
> but, to be honest, it's aesthetically unappealing to me (kind of a
> butchery with my knowledge of the language).
>
> But how have others done this? It seems quite complicated to me.
[...]
I would say, put yourself in the shoes of a native English speaker who
has no idea how the phonology of your conlang works (nor any idea what
your conlang *is*), who hears its name for the first time. How would
said English speaker spell the foreign-sounding name that he hears? No
doubt, it will be a butchering of the *real* pronunciation, and will
probably grate on your ears (not to mention mispronounced by others who
then attempt to pronounce it with English phonetic values), but it will
be a fairly good approximation of what would have happened in real-life
had such a language contact actually happened.
AFMCL, the name "Ebisédian" almost has nothing to do with what the
people call their own language. In fact, they don't even have a name for
their own language, because it is *the* language in their world. It is
simply known as "the language (words) of the people" (_ni 3bi's33di d3
3t3'mii_, pronounced as [ni?@\bi's@\:did@\?@\t@\'mi:]). The name
"Ebisédian" is an exonym constructed by analogy with other language
names in English which consist of the name of the speakers + -(i)an. In
my hypothetical contact scenario, when asked what they call themselves,
the native speakers would simply answer "the people" (_3bi's33di_),
which romanizes to "Ebisédi" (the 'é' is a compromise in a feeble
attempt to indicate where the stress falls on the word). The English
speaker would then take this answer as their name -- even though it
actually means just "people" in the language -- and affix -(i)an to it
to make the exonym "Ebisédian".
Tatari Faran, OTOH, means "the language of Fara (the Plain)". It is both
an exonym and an endonym. Native speakers use this appellation to
distinguish the lingua franca from certain other dialects/sisterlangs
spoken by various minorities in the Fara, such as _tatari ihiranan_ (the
language of the Mountains). In English usage, "Tatari Faran" refers to
the standard dialect that I documented from my informant, but various
distinct dialects exist, which are also called _tatari faran_ by native
speakers, some of which are actually more linguistically divergent from
the standard dialect than the supposedly "different" mountain dialects
(if pressed on this point, native speakers would start to refer to
_tatari hibei faran_ "another Tatari Faran" or "another kind of Tatari
Faran", so ostensibly _tatari faran_ means "*a* language of Fara" rather
than "*the* language of Fara", but for outsiders, the distinction is
immaterial, and the English name "Tatari Faran" refers to the standard
dialect only).
My new alienlang doesn't have a name yet, but I'm pretty sure the exonym
is going to be totally unrelated to the endonym...
T
--
Everybody talks about it, but nobody does anything about it! -- Mark Twain
Messages in this topic (7)
________________________________________________________________________
4g. Re: Anglicizing Your Conlang's Autoglottonym
Posted by: "Cosman246" yashtuls...@gmail.com
Date: Sun Sep 8, 2013 10:24 pm ((PDT))
The name I chose for Ṫirdonic is not based on the Ṫirdonic autoglottonym
(which is unknown), but on what in-world philologists have chosen to denote
it, based on the reconstructed root *ṫirdon ('noble'), which was later
adapted into an autoglottonym on an influential (but, out-of-world, as-yet
un-created) daughter language
-Yash Tulsyan
On Sun, Sep 8, 2013 at 10:13 PM, H. S. Teoh <hst...@quickfur.ath.cx> wrote:
> On Sun, Sep 08, 2013 at 10:24:41PM -0400, Zach Wellstood wrote:
> > Hi all,
> >
> > (if this has been discussed elsewhere, please link me. I haven't seen
> > it.)
> >
> > I haven't ever had an anglicized autoglottonym for my conlang, łaá
> > siri, but recently I've been considering coining one. Not only is it
> > unwieldy to type that <ł>, but saying it to those who don't understand
> > sounds of other languages is too: /ɬɑꜛɑ siri/.
> >
> > I don't think that an English translation would sound right ("Language
> > of the Sky People"?). Too long-winded and RPG-sounding for my
> > purposes.
> >
> > So I think the best way is to decide on a name like Siric (which
> > wouldn't make sense in the conlang, really, but is an option) or maybe
> > Lhaa (pronounced like /laa/). Maybe just retaining it as Lhaa Siri
> > but, to be honest, it's aesthetically unappealing to me (kind of a
> > butchery with my knowledge of the language).
> >
> > But how have others done this? It seems quite complicated to me.
> [...]
>
> I would say, put yourself in the shoes of a native English speaker who
> has no idea how the phonology of your conlang works (nor any idea what
> your conlang *is*), who hears its name for the first time. How would
> said English speaker spell the foreign-sounding name that he hears? No
> doubt, it will be a butchering of the *real* pronunciation, and will
> probably grate on your ears (not to mention mispronounced by others who
> then attempt to pronounce it with English phonetic values), but it will
> be a fairly good approximation of what would have happened in real-life
> had such a language contact actually happened.
>
> AFMCL, the name "Ebisédian" almost has nothing to do with what the
> people call their own language. In fact, they don't even have a name for
> their own language, because it is *the* language in their world. It is
> simply known as "the language (words) of the people" (_ni 3bi's33di d3
> 3t3'mii_, pronounced as [ni?@\bi's@\:did@\?@\t@\'mi:]). The name
> "Ebisédian" is an exonym constructed by analogy with other language
> names in English which consist of the name of the speakers + -(i)an. In
> my hypothetical contact scenario, when asked what they call themselves,
> the native speakers would simply answer "the people" (_3bi's33di_),
> which romanizes to "Ebisédi" (the 'é' is a compromise in a feeble
> attempt to indicate where the stress falls on the word). The English
> speaker would then take this answer as their name -- even though it
> actually means just "people" in the language -- and affix -(i)an to it
> to make the exonym "Ebisédian".
>
> Tatari Faran, OTOH, means "the language of Fara (the Plain)". It is both
> an exonym and an endonym. Native speakers use this appellation to
> distinguish the lingua franca from certain other dialects/sisterlangs
> spoken by various minorities in the Fara, such as _tatari ihiranan_ (the
> language of the Mountains). In English usage, "Tatari Faran" refers to
> the standard dialect that I documented from my informant, but various
> distinct dialects exist, which are also called _tatari faran_ by native
> speakers, some of which are actually more linguistically divergent from
> the standard dialect than the supposedly "different" mountain dialects
> (if pressed on this point, native speakers would start to refer to
> _tatari hibei faran_ "another Tatari Faran" or "another kind of Tatari
> Faran", so ostensibly _tatari faran_ means "*a* language of Fara" rather
> than "*the* language of Fara", but for outsiders, the distinction is
> immaterial, and the English name "Tatari Faran" refers to the standard
> dialect only).
>
> My new alienlang doesn't have a name yet, but I'm pretty sure the exonym
> is going to be totally unrelated to the endonym...
>
>
> T
>
> --
> Everybody talks about it, but nobody does anything about it! -- Mark Twain
>
Messages in this topic (7)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
5a. Re: USAGE: New english conjunction?
Posted by: "Roger Mills" romi...@yahoo.com
Date: Sun Sep 8, 2013 7:58 pm ((PDT))
From: BPJ <b...@melroch.se>
I sometimes use a single/double lateral click as spoken
single/double quotes, usually without any closing 'quote'.
The strange thing is that AFAIK I've never met another
person who does this, except when imitating me, yet everyone
seems to instantly get what I mean, since I've got some
positive as well as negative comments over the years.
RM (Ancient History Dept.) YEARS AGO, the Danish pianist/humorist Victor Borge
had a bit with "spoken" punctuation marks. IIRC, those clicks were used for
single/double quotes. Plus a lot of others that I disremember.
Messages in this topic (16)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
6a. Re: Choosing a word for "German"
Posted by: "C. Brickner" tepeyach...@embarqmail.com
Date: Sun Sep 8, 2013 9:15 pm ((PDT))
Senjecas is a language spoken long before humans had settled down and begun to
name the places where they live. For these later proper names Senjecas uses
the earliest names that I can find in the resources available to me. These
names are then adjusted to Senjecan phonology.
One of the several ways for forming these proper names is to add –as to the
final consonant of the stem. Thus, Germany is ‘germanas’; Iraq is ‘uruĸas’.
The inhabitant is ‘germanus’; the adjective is ‘germanis’.
Another way is to add ‘kyunas’, country, land, to the name of the people.
Thus, Belgium is ‘belgëĸyunas’, the Czech Republic (Bohemia) is ‘boiĸyunas’.
In these cases, the adjective would be ‘belgus’, the adjective ‘belgis’.
Charlie
----- Original Message -----
On 06/09/2013 01:59, Padraic Brown wrote:
>> If it is derived from 'herr man", then I guess it got
>> to the Romans through Celtic intermediaries. Any sound
>> changes would have occurred, possibly in a Chinese
>> whispers effect, along the route.
>
> Quite, though I'd suspect something a little older,
> maybe something closer to harjamanniz.
Well, yes - I didn't think the modern German words "Herr"
and "Mann" were actual known to Caesar or his
contemporaries. That's why "herr man" was between quotes; I
was lazily quoting from Paul Schleitwiler's email of 4th
August. Obviously the German of the 1st millennium BC was
somewhat different ;)
I know this thread began as a request for advice for Asirka.
But presumably many other conlangs have had to confront the
same issue. How have you gone about it?
The various forms of 'briefscript' have never reached
anything like a final form; but my intention was to use
short forms based on the ISO country codes. So
German/Germany would have been based on _de(u)-_ .
TAKE of course simply takes ancient (or Byzantine) Greek
forms without inflexions; thus we have:
γερμανό (germanó) = German [person]
γερμανικὀ (germanikó) = German [adj.]
Γερμανία (Germanía) = Germany
Outidic was inspired by Labbé's 17th century "Lingua
Universalis." Of names of peoples & nations he wrote:
"Nomina habitantium regiones provincias &c. prius quærenda
sunt, ut ex iis loca ipsa formentur aliaque ex iis
deriventur" (names of those inhabiting regions, provinces
&c. are to be sought first so that from them may be formed
the places themselves and other things may be derived." He
give as an example:
Franc = a French person
Francè = France
Francì = French [adj.] etc.
he also gave: Angl, Scot, Europ, Span, followed by &c.,
which does help us here. Especially as he had begun his
section on proper nouns with: "Propria, cum hominum, tum
locorum ex singulis linguis repeti possunt, ac modicè
inflecti" (proper nouns both of people and of places can be
found from individual languages with small modification).
Outidic takes names from those of the people he nation among
which they are used. They principles are given on:
http://www.carolandray.plus.com/Outis/Word_Forms.html#proper_names
But, like Labbé, Dr Outis does not seem to have given a word
for 'German'. As presumably he would have based it on
German "Deutsch", modified to comply with Outidic
phonotactics. It may have been *doiz (z = [dʒ])
--
Ray
==================================
http://www.carolandray.plus.com
==================================
"language … began with half-musical unanalysed expressions
for individual beings and events."
[Otto Jespersen, Progress in Language, 1895]
Messages in this topic (21)
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