There are 9 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1a. Re: Anglicizing Your Conlang's Autoglottonym
From: R A Brown
1b. Re: Anglicizing Your Conlang's Autoglottonym
From: yuri
1c. Re: Anglicizing Your Conlang's Autoglottonym
From: Daniel Bowman
2a. Re: Choosing a word for "German"
From: R A Brown
2b. Re: Choosing a word for "German"
From: yuri
3. Re: On Dating Oneself (was: RE: USAGE: New english conjunction?)
From: Douglas Koller
4. Conjunctions
From: A. da Mek
5. Re: Conjunctions (typo correction)
From: A. da Mek
6a. Re: USAGE: New english conjunction?
From: Allison Swenson
Messages
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1a. Re: Anglicizing Your Conlang's Autoglottonym
Posted by: "R A Brown" r...@carolandray.plus.com
Date: Mon Sep 9, 2013 12:11 am ((PDT))
On 09/09/2013 03:56, Padraic Brown wrote:
>> (if this has been discussed elsewhere, please link me.
>> I haven't seen it.)
>
>>
>> I haven't ever had an anglicized autoglottonym for my
>> conlang, łaá siri,
>
> Nor am I really certain why they would have one...
>
> To my way of thinking, an Anglification is really only
> useful for English speakers,
For English users, which is not necessarily the same as
English speakers (certainly not the same as L1 English speakers.
English, as we were once reminded a few years back when one
thread became conducted in French, is the language of the
Conlang list. So it may well be that having an anglicized
version is useful here.
In Zach's case, he explained:
>> but recently I've been considering coining one. Not
>> only is it unwieldy to type that <ł>, but saying it
>> to those who don't understand sounds of other languages
>> is too: /ɬɑꜛɑ siri/.
... which seems fair enough to me.
You may recall I was once working on a language who
autoglottonym was _Bax_. However, it used the Roman letters
in an unusual way, _Bax_ was pronounced [pja:ʃi]. I
anglicized it as Piashi. In my case the motivation was to
avoid gross mispronunciation.
This list is conducted I English, so IMO wanting an
anglicized version of a name may not be unreasonable; and it
surely depends on the Conlanger's own choice.
[snip]
>> ... or maybe Lhaa (pronounced like /laa/). Maybe just
>> retaining it as Lhaa Siri but, to be honest, it's
>> aesthetically unappealing to me
It seems fine to me, but ...
>> (kind of a butchery with my knowledge of the
>> language).
That kind of complicates the issue :)
>> But how have others done this? It seems quite
>> complicated to me.
========================================================
On 09/09/2013 03:35, DM wrote:
> Generally, I use my knowledge of English sounds to
> construct an approximation of what I believe a native
> english speaker would write down were they to hear the
> language's 'autoglottonym', as you call it, spoken
> aloud.
Which is exactly what I did when I anglicized _Bax_ as "Piashi."
--
Ray
==================================
http://www.carolandray.plus.com
==================================
"language … began with half-musical unanalysed expressions
for individual beings and events."
[Otto Jespersen, Progress in Language, 1895]
Messages in this topic (10)
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1b. Re: Anglicizing Your Conlang's Autoglottonym
Posted by: "yuri" yur...@gmail.com
Date: Mon Sep 9, 2013 3:55 am ((PDT))
On 9 September 2013 14:24, Zach Wellstood wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> (if this has been discussed elsewhere, please link me. I haven't seen it.)
>
> I haven't ever had an anglicized autoglottonym for my conlang, łaá siri,
> but recently I've been considering coining one. Not only is it unwieldy to
> type that <ł>, but saying it to those who don't understand sounds of other
> languages is too: /ɬɑꜛɑ siri/.
[...]
> But how have others done this? It seems quite complicated to me.
I deliberately don't. English doesn't have the [X] in KlaXa and if
some monolinguistic Anglophone can't say it -- boohoo for them :-P
Since KlaXa is an auxlang intended for a secret society so we can talk
about you right under your nose without you knowing what we're saying
(usually just making fun of how you look or your Mama) it contains a
handful of phonemes that sound exotic to Anglophones. Pejoratives and
expletives contain guttural sounds designed to be grating in the ears
of an Anglophone eavesdropper.
Yuri (in a belligerent mood today).
Messages in this topic (10)
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1c. Re: Anglicizing Your Conlang's Autoglottonym
Posted by: "Daniel Bowman" danny.c.bow...@gmail.com
Date: Mon Sep 9, 2013 5:27 am ((PDT))
I have deliberately kept Angosey's orthography free of accents, special
linguistic symbols, etc for two reasons. One, I find it easier to remember
and write down diglyphs rather than special monoglyphs. I also find it
simpler to change the American English pronunciation of a letter into the
Angosey pronunciation of the letter in my mind, rather than recalling the
exact pronunciation of an "unusual" symbol. Part of this preference is
likely because I have no formal training in linguistics.
The other is because I *do* want to have people have some sort of aural
representation of Angosey when the read it, even though inevitably they
will get it wrong. This seems preferable than having a linguistically
precise but much less accessible orthography.
So the consequences are: people read /æn/go/seɪ rather than ɑn/ko/seɪ, oh
well, close enough...!
2013/9/8 Zach Wellstood <zwellst...@gmail.com>
> Hi all,
>
> (if this has been discussed elsewhere, please link me. I haven't seen it.)
>
> I haven't ever had an anglicized autoglottonym for my conlang, łaá siri,
> but recently I've been considering coining one. Not only is it unwieldy to
> type that <ł>, but saying it to those who don't understand sounds of other
> languages is too: /ɬɑꜛɑ siri/.
>
> I don't think that an English translation would sound right ("Language of
> the Sky People"?). Too long-winded and RPG-sounding for my purposes.
>
> So I think the best way is to decide on a name like Siric (which wouldn't
> make sense in the conlang, really, but is an option) or maybe Lhaa
> (pronounced like /laa/). Maybe just retaining it as Lhaa Siri but, to be
> honest, it's aesthetically unappealing to me (kind of a butchery with my
> knowledge of the language).
>
> But how have others done this? It seems quite complicated to me.
>
> Best,
> Zach
>
>
> raa'lalí 'aa! - [sirisaá! <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conlang>]
>
Messages in this topic (10)
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2a. Re: Choosing a word for "German"
Posted by: "R A Brown" r...@carolandray.plus.com
Date: Mon Sep 9, 2013 12:22 am ((PDT))
On 08/09/2013 18:20, Padraic Brown wrote:
>>> Quite, though I'd suspect something a little older,
>
>>> maybe something closer to harjamanniz.
>>
>> Well, yes ... Obviously the German of the 1st
>> millennium BC was somewhat different ;)
>
> Only somewhat!
Typical British understatement ;)
[snip]
>> Outidic was inspired by Labbé's 17th century "Lingua
>> Universalis." Of names of peoples & nations he wrote:
>> "Nomina habitantium regiones provincias &c. prius
>> quærenda sunt, ut ex iis loca ipsa formentur aliaque ex
>> iis deriventur" (names of those inhabiting regions,
>> provinces &c. are to be sought first so that from them
>> may be formed the places themselves and other things
>> may be derived." He give as an example:
>> Franc = a French person
>> Francè = France
>> Francì = French [adj.] etc.
>
> There is something to be lauded in this: short, sweet and
> to the point!
Typical of Labbé's language. I find it quite attractive in
an odd way. It is AFAIK the earliest attempt (1663) at an
a_posteriori auxlang, eked out with a_priori elements - a
tradition which, of course, we find continued much later in
Volapük (1879/80) and not completely abandoned in Esperanto
(1887). But I'm probably straying into Auxlandia territory
here, so I'd better stop.
--
Ray
==================================
http://www.carolandray.plus.com
==================================
"language … began with half-musical unanalysed expressions
for individual beings and events."
[Otto Jespersen, Progress in Language, 1895]
Messages in this topic (23)
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2b. Re: Choosing a word for "German"
Posted by: "yuri" yur...@gmail.com
Date: Mon Sep 9, 2013 2:31 am ((PDT))
On 9 September 2013 03:03, R A Brown wrote:
> I know this thread began as a request for advice for Asirka.
> But presumably many other conlangs have had to confront the
> same issue. How have you gone about it?
Well, since KlaXa is actually an auxlang designed to be spoken by a
secret society, we deliberately can't use any recognisable roots that
might allow spies to decipher our language. Therefore we use a
nickname based on "native" KlaXa roots based on some stereotype about
each nationality.
I haven't coined a word for German yet.
A common derogatory name for Germans is "krauts" so perhaps I'd use a
native KlaXa word for cabbage.
Likewise for the French I'd use the KlaXa word for "frog" and for the
Dutch I might choose something related to cheese.
Yuri
Messages in this topic (23)
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3. Re: On Dating Oneself (was: RE: USAGE: New english conjunction?)
Posted by: "Douglas Koller" douglaskol...@hotmail.com
Date: Mon Sep 9, 2013 3:06 am ((PDT))
From: douglaskol...@hotmail.com
To: romi...@yahoo.com
Subject: On Dating Oneself (was: RE: USAGE: New english conjunction?)
Date: Mon, 9 Sep 2013 06:06:05 -0400
> Date: Sun, 8 Sep 2013 19:58:35 -0700
> From: romi...@yahoo.com
> Subject: Re: USAGE: New english conjunction?
> To: conl...@listserv.brown.edu
> RM (Ancient History Dept.) YEARS AGO, the Danish pianist/humorist Victor
> Borge had a bit with "spoken" punctuation marks. IIRC, those clicks were used
> for single/double quotes. Plus a lot of others that I disremember.
Wow, there's a pleasant blast from the past! Not *that* ancient, but a *little*
before my time to say I teethed on it. Still, like Talulah Bankhead, Ruby
Keeler, or Edgar Bergen, I can catch a reference. I*I*RC, his punctuation
schtick was relatively drole. :)
Nostaligically fuzzily yours,
Kou
Messages in this topic (1)
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4. Conjunctions
Posted by: "A. da Mek" a.da_m...@ufoni.cz
Date: Mon Sep 9, 2013 5:21 am ((PDT))
There is a semantical split between the language of Scientists and
Comertists.
Unlike Scientistish, where the plain "or" is synonymous with "ior" and
different from "xor",
in Comertistish, the plain "or" is synonymous with "xor" and different from
"ior",
which they call "andslashor".
In 'Zanish (which is a daughter of Tarzanish (which is the written English
used without knowledge of spoken English)), conjunctions occur nearly
always in pairs;
only "regardlessof", "ior" and "if2" can be used singly.
The pair can be extended to a triad with an optional closing member.
Here is the list of all 16 goups of conjunctions:
0011 A
0101 B
----
0000 nregardlessoff A, nregardlessof B
0001 both A and B (thob)
0010 nif A nthen B (fin)
0011 (yest) A, regardlessof B
0100 nann A nif2 B
0101 regardlessof A, (yest) B
0110 xeither A xor B (rethiex)
0111 (ieither) A ior B (rethiei)
1000 neither A nor B (rethien)
1001 eq1 A eq B (1eq)
1010 regardlessof A, not B
1011 (ann) A if2 B (naa)
1100 not A, regardlessof B
1101 if A then B (fi)
1110 nboth A nand B (thobn)
1111 regardlessoff A, regardlessof B
"nregardlessoff" is never used by a veracious person (except in quotation),
because such complex sentence is always false, regardless of the trueness
of both its components.
"yest" was coined by the analogy "no - not, yes - *yest".
"then" can be used only as the second member, because it is the temporative
case of the definite article, referring the already mentioned A.
As the first member, it must be therefore replaced by the indefinite "ann".
"ior" is homonymous with "andslashxor". ("andslashior" would be also
synomous with "ior", but it such case the "andslash-" preffix is apparently
redundant.)
"eq" is homonymous with "thenandonlythen" and with "nxor" (and "xor" is
homonymous with "neq").
("xor" is of course "exclusive or"; analogously "ior" is "inclusive or".)
Other dialect use "endif" instead of "fi", and so on.
Messages in this topic (1)
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5. Re: Conjunctions (typo correction)
Posted by: "A. da Mek" a.da_m...@ufoni.cz
Date: Mon Sep 9, 2013 5:27 am ((PDT))
> "ior" is homonymous with "andslashxor".
synonymous, of course
> ("andslashior" would be also synomous with "ior", but it such case the
> "andslash-" preffix is apparently redundant.)
>
> "eq" is homonymous with "thenandonlythen" and with "nxor"
synonymous
> (and "xor" is homonymous with "neq").
synonymous
Messages in this topic (1)
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6a. Re: USAGE: New english conjunction?
Posted by: "Allison Swenson" jlon...@gmail.com
Date: Mon Sep 9, 2013 5:27 am ((PDT))
You know, I didn't realize that I say the word "slash" until I read this...
Now that it's been brought to mind, however, I realize I do indeed say it
aloud. Not commonly, and more often than not with a somewhat sarcastic
edge, but I do use it. In my own speech, I think it tends to have the
meaning of either "in other words" (example 4) or simply "and/or" (examples
1 through 3), but in writing I think I do use it in a similar way to the
later examples given.
I would never use it at the beginning of a sentence, though. That just
seems... very odd to me. And I confess it sounds very "teenager". Granted,
I'm not all that far out of being a teenager myself, but it has that
feeling to me.
Well, I guess it's something to keep an eye on. I'll use my usual test to
tell whether or not it's a "real" word--whether or not my mother uses it! I
knew "to google" had finally made it when she used it all on her own...
Messages in this topic (17)
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