-Caveat Lector-
nurev wrote:
Typical Libertarian bullshit. America has a slightly mixed
economy which is firmly in the hands of Capitalists. The
very worst of both possibilities.
It's the Capitalist Elites who enjoy the fruits of
Socialism by owning the government. And it's the poor
and working class who enjoy the bitter leftovers of
capitalism.
MJ:
Your blatant contradiction of yourself aside ...
Capitalism requires a SEPARATION of the economy and the
state -- hardly a reality within the US.
nurev wrote:
You are absurd. Why don't you do a reality check to see if the
above statement bears any resemblance to reality?
MJ:
It is reality at which I am pointing.
Nurev opined:
This is the stupidest statement I've yet seen on the subject.
I don't know what planet you live on, but on Earth, Capitalism
can not exist without the state, and MUST control the state
or die. Show me even ONE case where capitalism thrives
independent of the state. EVEN ONE!!!
MJ:
There has NEVER been a truly capitalist society, though America
came close during its first 150 years.
nurev wrote:
You mean Salvery???
MJ:
salivary (sàl´e-vèr´ê) adjective
1. Of, relating to, or producing saliva.
2. Of or relating to a salivary gland.
???
slavery (slâ´ve-rê, slâv´rê) noun
1. The state of one bound in servitude as the property of
a slaveholder or household. See synonyms at servitude.
2. a. The practice of owning slaves. b. A mode of production
in which slaves constitute the principal work force.
3. The condition of being subject or addicted to a specified
influence.
4. A condition of hard work and subjection: wage slavery.
???
What exactly do EITHER of these have to do with capitalism?
Nurev opined:
Capitalism is an inherently unstable and self destructive
economic system that REQUIRES the state to pull Capitalists'
chestnuts out of the fire time and time again. Capitalists
REQUIRE the state to protect their interests from competition.
BUT WHO PROTECTS THE REST OF US FROM CAPITALISM? Not the state
because the state is run by the very people we need the
protection from.
MJ:
I am becoming dizzy from your Circulus in demonstrando, ad
hoc and non sequitur.
nurev wrote:
Well said. But incoherant.
MJ:
Contradicting yourself again?
MJ:
By your above remarks:
Capitalism is unstable and requires the state to save
it ... yet the state is run by these same people who
are unstable -- but capable of saving themselves.
Certainly profound.
nurev wrote:
I said that capitalism is unstable, not necessarily its elite
rulers. This ploy was very unsubtle. You need to do better
than that.
MJ:
Perhaps you should again READ what was penned under your name.
American Heritage states:
cap·i·tal·ism (kàp¹î-tl-îz´em) noun
An economic system in which the means of production and
distribution are privately or corporately owned and
development is proportionate to the accumulation and
reinvestment of profits gained in a free market.
Capitalism means the complete separation of economy and
state, just like the separation of church and state.
Capitalism is the social system based upon private
ownership of the means of production which entails a
completely uncontrolled and unregulated economy where all
land is privately owned. But the separation of the state
and the economy is not a primary, it is only an aspect of
the premise that capitalism is based upon: individual rights.
Capitalism is the only politico-economic system based on
the doctrine of individual rights. This means that
capitalism recognizes that each and every person is the
owner of his own life, and has the right to live his life
in any manner he chooses as long as he does not violate the
rights of others.
The essential nature of capitalism is social harmony through
the pursuit of self-interest. Under capitalism, the individual's
pursuit of his own economic self-interest simultaneously
benefits the economic self-interests of all others. In allowing
each individual to act unhampered by government regulations,
capitalism causes wealth to be created in the most efficient
manner possible which ultimately raises the standard of living,
increases the economic opportunities, and makes available an
ever growing supply of products for everyone. The free-market
operates in such a way so that as one man creates more wealth
for himself, he simultaneously creates more wealth for everyone,
which means that as the rich become richer, the poor become
richer too. It must be understood that capitalism serves the
economic self-interests of all, including the non-capitalists.
Contrary to widely held beliefs, capitalism is not a system
which exploits a large portion of society for the sake of a
small minority of wealthy capitalists.
nurev wrote:
OK. This part was really funny. I like good satire.
MJ:
How so?
Nurev continued:
I don't know what fantasy you live in, but pull your head
out of wherever you've placed it and LOOK AROUND YOU.
I want to control the state democratically and I don't want
businessmen to run this society surreptitiously any longer.
MJ:
I would prefer the Government was restrained to its only
legitimate function of protecting all individuals from force
and fraud -- your idea of Tyranny by the majority is no more
appealing than the Statist displacement we are currently
saddled.
nurev wrote:
Too bad. I'm willing to chance the tyrany of the majority, because
we can no longer tolerate the tyrany of the Rich minority.
MJ:
How exactly is that system in which *I* proposed above a 'tyranny
of a Rich minority'?
Nurev:
More people feel like I do due to the antics of people you
seem to admire. In the end, it will go our way because there
are more of us than there are of you. If you don't like
that, you may leave. I suggest you go to Russia where your
kind of economic philosophy is practiced.
Take a sweater.
MJ:
Yes, I am familiar with the Myrmidons who prefer anything to
liberty and freedom -- including the maintenance of a Kakistocracy..
nurev wrote:
Are you now learning English from Butterfly Psychotwat? You've
come a long way.
What we currently have is no Kakistocracy and never was. It is
now considered by our elites as an aristocracy, and that attitude
goes back to the Founding Finagelers.
MJ:
How exactly does our current government mirror that one of 1789?
Who are today's John Calhoun, John Adams, James Madison, ... ?
How does the US Constitution -- pre last 17 amendments -- support
your claim?
Regard$,
--MJ
Except in the sacred texts of democracy and in the incantations of
orators, we hardly take the trouble to pretend that the rule of the
majority is not at bottom a rule of force. What other virtue can
there be in fifty-one percent except the brute fact that fifty-one
is more than forty-nine? The rule of fifty-one per cent is a
convenience, it is for certain matters a satisfactory political
device, it is for others the lesser of two evils, and for others it
is acceptable because we do not know any less troublesome method of
obtaining a political decision. But it may easily become an absurd
tyranny if we regard it worshipfully, as though it were more than a
political device. We have lost all sense of its true meaning wheen
we imagine that the opinion of fifty-one per cent is in some high
fashion the true opinion of the whole hundred per cent, or indulge
in the sophistry that the rule of a majority is based upon the ultimate
equality of man. -- Walter Lippmann
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