-Caveat Lector-
It seems to me that it is very possible that this charge is a form of
disinformation. I don't know of any proof of this being asserted previous to
this. The video of the fire starting at Waco showed a grardual build up of
flames. I doubt if that would have happened if even one missle had been
fired from a helicopter. Besides, why would they have to fire from a
helicopter and make a big show? They could have started the fire with
flash/bangs, as they probably did.
How would such disinformation work? Get people hollering about something
that is easily proven false, then claiming that you have answered your
critics while ignoring the true charges.
Howard Davis
----------
>From: Sean McDougal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>Subject: [CTRL] Fw: WACO: Joyce Riley on Art Bell 9/2/99
>Date: Sat, Sep 4, 1999, 2:11 PM
>
> -Caveat Lector-
>
> ----Original Message Follows----
> From: Jon Roland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: undisclosed-recipients:;
> Subject: Fw: WACO: Joyce Riley on Art Bell 9/2/99
> Date: Sat, 4 Sep 1999 00:26:01 -0500 (CDT)
>
> --------- Begin forwarded message ----------
>
> To listen to the discussion of Waco by Joyce Riley on Art Bell,
> download the
> program.
>
> Click to listen: http://ww2.broadcast.com/artbell/abell/9909/ab0902.ram
>
> Pertinent parts begin at approximately 2 hours, six minutes (2:06) into the
> program. To fastforward to this point in the program, just move the clip
> position indicator with your mouse until the time indicator reads somewhere
> close to 2:06:00.0
>
> Rough transcript beginning at above time (not proofread or spell-checked):
>
> ART BELL: All kinds of information breaking about Waco, just all kinds.
> I know you have new, as yet unheard by anybody information about Waco.
> What can you tell us?
>
> JOYCE RILEY: Well, let me preface this by saying the purpose for this
> person coming forward with the information was that he is a sick Gulf
> War veteran, and we had a long discussion about the secrets of the
> Gulf War illness and the cover-up involved there, and I said, "Just like
> Waco, there needs to be the exposure of the truth about Waco." And
> he said, "I know about Waco." And I said, "How do you know about
> Waco?" And he said, "I know more than I wish I knew. I was stationed
> at Fort Hood and we were the unit that provided the Apache attack
> helicopters."
>
> You can imagine how startled I was to hear that there were Apache
> attack helicopters, because an Apache is not even armed in the United
> States. It's never armed because it is nothing but a helicopter for war.
> It's --
>
> ART: An Apache, actually, was probably the most efficient killing
> machine in the Gulf War, so efficient that the images were hidden from
> the American people. The Apache is an incredible war machine. People
> have no idea how devastating the fire power from that helicopter can be.
>
> JOYCE: Oh, it is. It looks like a preying mantis. It is the helicopter
> that
> has the wheels on it. And if you were to ever see one, it is just -- it's
> very formidable. And in talking with this Gulf War veteran, and part of the
> reason I'm saying this today is because of his -- for his protection,
> because
> Texas Rangers have become involved in this since I talked with you, Art,
> so I'm not at liberty to identify some of the things that I was going to
> say.
> But I did get a phone call from Dick DeGuerin today, which the attorney
> for the Branch Dividians, and I can assure you that this information that
> he gave coincides with what he already knew and speculated.
>
> But let me just say that this Gulf War veteran, after we talked about this,
> I said, "You know you have a responsibility to come forward, because if
> we want people to tell the truth about Gulf War illness, if we want
> the people to come out of the Pentagon and out of the corners in the
> back alleys and admit to what has gone on there, we're going to have to
> tell what we know." So he has come forward. He is a destitute, if you
> will, Gulf War veteran who has no purpose in doing this other than the
> world needs to know the truth, and it is time that we quit harboring
> these secrets under the name of military adventure or military action.
> What he told me is that while he was stationed at Fort Hood at the
> F227 Aviation Apache Attack Squadron, that they armed the Apache
> helicopters to go in to Waco.
>
> ART: They armed them.
>
> JOYCE: They armed them. Now understanding that if what we say is
> true here today, this is the most devastating information to come across,
> because this puts the liability and the accountability all the way up to
> the president, for arming a helicopter for a war situation within the
> United States, basically violating the Posse Commitatus Act.
>
> ART: Absolutely.
>
> JOYCE: So, when he described this operation, I asked him what they
> armed the helicopters with.
>
> ART: Good. And what did he say?
>
> JOYCE: He said they armed them -- there were 20 helicopters that took
> turns going back and forth between Ft. Hood and Waco, which is a
> 5-minute flight or a 20-minute drive -- 30-minute drive. They were
> supported by the 3rd Armored Division. They armed these helicopters
> with eight Hellfire missiles, which to the person that may not know a
> Hellfire, it can go through an M-1 tank and it explodes into a fireball.
> There was a belly gun with an M-60 armor-piercing 20-millimeter cannon.
> The round pod(?) contained, 50 on each side, air-to-ground 122-millimeter
> rockets. There were also air-to-ground two Devor(?) Sidewinder missiles
> loaded on each helicopter. Those are the -- the Sidewinder missiles are
> the ones that are on the wings of the F-16. There were two Apaches at
> all times at Waco. There were eight -- there were Blackhawk helicopters,
> 2 to 4 of those, with eight per -- eight individuals per Blackhawk, and
> there were Humvees that were there. He also said there were Delta
> Forces. He does not want to say the unit or where they came from,
> however they were present there and he did talk with them.
>
> ART: Delta Forces.
>
> JOYCE: Correct. So there's confirmation on the Delta Forces. Now,
> the critical part of this is we have weapons being deployed that are
> only used for a war situation, and, by the way, when they are used at
> Ft. Hood in the training maneuvers, he said they do not even use these
> weapons. They have a training area outside of Ft. Hood and only the
> red colored weapons can be used, which are the [?] weapons. He
> said never. I asked him, "Why did they think they were going into
> Mt. Carmel?" And he said they had been told this was a very hostile
> situation, they were heavily armed and it was a cult.
>
> Now, for anyone out there who does not understand, I want to clear
> the air with respect to David Koresh. I have talked with people in Waco,
> I have worked with attorneys there, and I can assure there was no legal
> search warrant, there was no child exploitation going on there. This
> was a whole different situation than we were told. So, it's all
> perception media that we received.
>
> ART: Well, I know the psychiatrist that examined the children that
> did come out, Joyce, said they found them to be well-adjusted. That's
> my recollection. Now it's a long time ago, but that's what I recall.
>
> JOYCE: That's right. And I also -- my husband, who was doing a talk
> show for WATR in Waterbury, Connecticut, did an interview with Clive
> Doyle(?), who is one of the individuals who escaped from Mt. Carmel,
> and I had talked to --
>
> ...<snip....
>
> JOYCE: Well, I will say that Clyde Doyle has said much of what I have
> heard here from this individual, because this changes the whole
> perspective of things and, literally, this radio show tonight, because
> this information will be coming out in the Dallas Morning News --
>
> ART: Well, there's a little more, Joyce, and I don't know whether
> you can comment on this or not. You told me very descriptively what
> the Apaches were armed with. What did they come back with?
>
> JOYCE: And that is the critical issue. I asked him how -- I asked him
> what happened at Mt. Carmel the day of the fire, and he said, "The
> Apaches fired. They fired upon something." And I asked him, "If they
> had fired upon and missed Mt. Carmel or fired out into a field, would
> there have been a hole?" And he said, "There would have been a
> huge, huge hole and everyone would have known about it." I asked
> him how they knew that they fired upon Mt. Carmel, and of course
> he talked with the pilots and he has named all the individuals. Then
> he said, "We know they fired because half of the weaponry was
> missing."
>
> ART: Half of the ordnance was missing?
>
> JOYCE: That's correct. Half of those Hellfire missiles were missing.
>
> ART: God.
>
> JOYCE: And those are the ones that explode into a fireball. So, this
> information obviously is now going to go to the forefront of the
> investigation, and I can only say that I am grateful that he has come
> forward. I hope he has the strength to continue on this, and I know
> this is not going to be easy for him as sick as he is, also. And I just
> commend him, because this is the only way, if we band together as
> Americans to help each other, can the truth come out, and there's a
> lot of truth out there and there's a lot of people that have information
> that they can provide us.
>
> ART: Apparently so. Listen, let me read to you what Matt Drudge
> wrote tonight and see if this resonates with you. Matt wrote, "A federal
> judge wants all Waco evidence, threatens government with contempt.
> According to Friday's Atlanta Journal Constitution, United States
> District Judge Walter Smith, Jr. has ordered the federal government
> to turn over all evidence relating to the Branch Dividian siege at Waco
> by the end of the month or face a contempt of court citation. The
> Journal Constitution's Mark Englen and Tommy Witherspoon are
> reporting that Judge Smith has dismissed Justice's strongly worded
> 19-page motion in response to his original August 9th Order as an,
> quote, 'unwarranted and substantial burden.' Justice argued that
> Judge Smith's original request for all the evidence was too demanding.
> Smith wrote, 'The Court finds this argument somewhat disingenuous
> since the government has been in possession of this material for
> six and one-half years and has been aware since 1996, when the
> civil suits were originally filed, that this material could very well
> be subject to discovery.' End quote. He continued, quote,
> 'Additionally, the Court would have thought that the vast majority
> of the material now sought in this civil litigation would have already
> been compiled as a result of the various Congressional hearings
> held over the Branch Dividian matter.' End quote. Smith is set
> to preside over the Branch Davidians' wrongful death civil lawsuit
> scheduled to begin in late October.
>
> So, here's a judge prepared to hold the U.S. government in contempt.
>
> JOYCE: Well, I'm not -- I'm not threatened by that and I'm not -- I'm
> sure that they are not threatened, either. You know, the idea is that
> we have lost human lives.
>
> ART: Well, they ought to be threatened. We had a president,
> whatever you think of him, good, bad or ugly, who held some courts
> in contempt and filed some special prosecutors, and it took a while,
> Joyce, but in the end, my god, they pried the evidence out. And so
> they better be concerned, because the Judicial Branch of our
> government is not to be ignored. They can't hold -- I hold them in
> contempt. I hold our government in contempt.
>
> JOYCE: Well, I think every person does, but I think, for instance, they
> have just now announced that perhaps Mr. Rudman -- Senator Rudman
> will now be listed as the chief of the investigating committee on Waco.
> Well, he's the one that just headed up the Gulf War investigating
> committee and found nobody sick and there's no problem.
>
> ART: We're now, all of a sudden, hearing, Joyce, that the Attorney
> General, who had just come in in the middle of this mess in Waco,
> may not, they say, have been told everything. You been hearing about
> that?
>
> JOYCE: Oh, absolutely.
>
> ART: May not have been told everything.
>
> JOYCE: But, Art, how many people do you think know when an Apache
> helicopter -- twenty Apache helicopters are armed and are circling
> over a church? How many people do you think know about this? Do
> you think the Attorney General does? Absolutely, she does.
>
> ART: Ought to. Certainly ought to. Now it was kind of hard to tell,
> because as you recall during the end, in days, they moved the media
> way, way back. Remember that?
>
> JOYCE: Oh, yes.
>
> ART: So, if that sort of thing was going on -- and I've also now heard
> it mentioned that the gas cannisters that were tossed in were
> flammable as well and could have started fires. They're trying to say,
> "Well, we tossed them in much earlier than the fire and while they
> could have caused a fire, they didn't, but they were not the primary
> cause of the fire." So, all of a sudden, everything they said then is
> BS now. Seems that way.
>
> JOYCE: Well, and everything is turned around and contorted and
> deluded. I mean, maybe it was a Hellfire missile that ends up in a
> fireball that started the fire.
>
> ART: Maybe it was. Maybe it was. God help us.
>
> JOYCE: But, you know, colonels and generals at Ft. Hood don't just
> say, hey, let's send an Apache helicopter, fully armed with Hellfire
> Spitfire missiiles, 122-millimeter rockets.
>
> ART: Yeah. Here's something that I, to this day, Joyce, do not
> understand. I watched the FBI briefings daily, as did so many
> Americans, and inevitably the FBI spokesman, you know, knowing
> there were women, children in there, said, "If necessary, we'll wait
> until hell freezes over," whatever it was, "We won't go in violently.
> We won't end this violently. We will respond, but we will not end
> it violently. We will wait them out." And then something changed.
>
> JOYCE: Well, the stage had to be set to try and put the burden on
> them for having started their own fire. They had to set the stage
> that we're not going to do anything, so if anything happens here it
> will have been the Branch Davidians. But, you know, there were
> holes in the top of that church --
>
> ART: I know.
>
> JOYCE: -- prior to the time of the fire. There were people inside
> there that actually saw, including Dick DeGuerin, the attorney.
> Now you don't get holes inside that big unless they come from
> a helicopter -- an attack helicopter such as that. So what we have
> here is lie upon lie upon lie. You can -- you know, there can be
> a million lies, but there's only one truth, and I think that our
> government is going to face the most difficult time in its near
> future now, and we're not talking about people to just be fired
> or slapped on the wrist for what they did; we're talking about a
> whole reevaluation of the people that are in power right now.
> Not the government. We like -- we love this Constitutional
> Republic, but there's got to be a total reevaluation of the people
> and the power that they now have.
>
> ART: All right, Joyce, Hold it right there. Well, did you digest
> what you just heard? Fully armed, heavily weighted down
> Apache helicopters with the ordnance just described, coming
> back with about half of what they left with. I wonder where it
> went. To serve and protect, huh? And then, I suppose, at times
> to slaughter as well. From the high desert, this is coast-to-coast
> AM.
>
> [Break -- 2:22:25 into program]
>
> ---------------End of Original Message-----------------
>
> 916/568-1022, 916/450-7941VM Date: 09/03/99 Time: 08:36:27
> http://www.constitution.org/ mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>
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CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing! These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.
Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.
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