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Re: Berachos 007: Tosfos on Avraham Avinu
Betzalel Gersten asks:
>>Why does Tosfos try to prove that "after" the battle of the four kings
Avraham is 73. We know that Avraham entered Eretz Canaan by Lech Lecha at
75 as the Pasuk is explicit (Beraishis 12:4) and Lot is with him at that
time (important for later). If we just follow everything chronologically,
Avraham is still older in Beraishis 15:2 (75+) then he is in Beraishis 15:8
(70 years old). By explaining this the way Tosfos (and first Rashi on
Shabbos 12a) explain it creates a whole new problem. How is it that the
death of Kdarla'omer, the capture and saving of Lot, and the capture and
return of all of his Rechush (14:16) the mention of Aner, Ashkol & Mamre
(14:13,24), as well as a Pasuk that says that Avraham lived in Elonei
Mamre(14:13) -- how could all this happen before Lech Lecha and when
Avraham and Lot subsequently went down to Mitzrayim and subsequently came
up with wealth which subsequently caused disputes between their shepherds
and sent Lot to Sdom. Wasn't he captured logically after that point when
Avraham is 75+. What is forcing Tosfos and Rashi to make the break of the
52 years of Sdom down the middle to put Beraishis 15:1 when Avraham is 73.
Why do the 26 years of Shalva have to all be at the end and the 12 years of
servitude to Kdarla'omer have to be from the founding of Sdom, right after
the death of Re'u and Migdal Bavel. (Avraham was 100-52=48 during Migdal
Bavel) Why not say that there were some years of Shalva in Sdom before
Kdarl'omer came along and simply break up the 26 years before and after the
12 years of servitude and 13 years of rebellion. So that the war between
Avraham and the five kings can be after Avraham is 75+. Why are Tosfos and
Rashi seemingly creating more problems than they are helping solve. What's
pushing them to do this. What am I missing.<<
The Kollel replied:
>>1) By way of introduction, I should point out that we should not be too
concerned if things do not match chronologically, because we have the very
important rule (Pesachim 6b), "Ein Mukdam u'Me'uchar ba'Torah" -- that
which came first on the timeline was not necessarily written first in the
Torah. Rashi (Bereshis 6:3) cites this rule very early in his commentary on
the Torah and gives an example there from that Parshah.
2) Now we will look at the source for Tosfos' statement that Avraham was 70
at the Bris Bein ha'Besarim. This is explained by the Da'as Zekenim
mi'Ba'alei ha'Tosfos on Bereshis 12:4. He proves this from the apparent
contradiction between Bereshis 15:13 and Shemos 12:41. In Bereshis 15:13,
Avraham was told by Hashem that his descendants would be afflicted for 400
years in Egypt. However, Shemos 12:41 says that they left after 430 years.
The solution is given by Rashi in Bereshis 15:13 that the 400 years start
from when Yitzchak was born, while the 430 years start from when Hashem
spoke to Avraham at the Bris Bein ha'Besarim. We now know that the Bris
Bein ha'Besarim happened 30 years before Yitzchak was born. Since we know
that Avraham was 100 when Yitzchak was born, it follows that he was 70 at
the Bris Bein ha'Besarim. We are forced to apply here "Ein Mukdam
u'Me'uchar ba'Torah," because Avraham was 75 at the beginning of Lech Lecha
and he was only 70 later on in the same Parshah.
3) However, your question about the age 73 that Tosfos gives for Avraham's
age at the time of the battle with the kings is asked by Rav Eliezer Moshe
ha'Levi Horowitz, whose Chidushim are printed in the back of the Gemara. He
claims that the verses contradict Tosfos. We see explicitly that Avraham's
departure from Canaan, his descebt to Egypt, as well as his return from
Egypt to Canaan, were all done together with Lot. Only after they parted
did the war with the kings take place. Rav Horowitz proves from this that
Avraham was at least 75 at the time of the war with the kings, so how can
Tosfos say he was 73?
I have to close here for the moment. In my next reply I will try, b'Ezras
Hashem, to defend Tosfos from the question asked on him by Rav Horowitz.<<
The Kollel added:
>>Before I attempt to answer the question of Rav Elazar Moshe ha'Levi
Horowitz, I will cite another source on your side. Tosfos in Shabbos (11a,
DH v'Shel) cites the Seder Olam, from which it appears that Avraham was 75
when he struck the kings.
1) The Seder Olam starts by stating that Avraham was 70 at the Bris Bein
ha'Besarim. This is what I wrote in my first reply. Avraham then returned
to Charan and stayed there for 5 years, so he was 75 when he left for the
second time. The Seder Olam continues that in the year he left Charan there
was a famine, so he went down to Egypt and stayed there for 3 months. Then
he returned and lived in Elonei Mamreh (this fits with what you argued that
he lived in Elonei Mamreh after leaving Charan at 75). This was the year
that he struck the kings. So we see from here that Avraham was 75 at the
time of the war with the kings, not 73 as Tosfos in Berachos writes.
2) You were also Mechaven to the next part of Tosfos in Shabbos. We know
that Avraham was 99 when Sedom was destroyed (because this happened on the
same day that Sarah was told that she would have a child, which was a year
before Yitzchak was born, when Avraham was 100). Since Avraham was 75 at
the war of the kings, this suggests that Sedom enjoyed only 24 peaceful
years (since the peaceful years started immediately after the war with the
kings). This contradicts the Gemara in Shabbos (10b-11a) that Sedom enjoyed
26 peaceful years. To resolve this riddle, Tosfos asserts that there were 2
peaceful years right at Sedom's very beginning, before they served
Kedarlaomer and then rebelled. So Tosfos agrees with you that the years of
Shalvah can be broken up and 2 of them can be right at the beginning.
3) So far I have cited sources that disagree with our Tosfos in Berachos,
but now we have to try to understand how Tosfos in Berachos deflects these
arguments. We should first realize that the two arguments I have cited
above make a difference of only 2 years. The questions at stake are whether
Avraham was 73 or 75 at the time of the war of the kings, and whether there
were 2 years of Shalvah right at the beginning or all of the Shalvah was at
the end. Everyone agrees that Avraham was 70 at the Bris Bein Ha'Besarim.
Tosfos in Shabbos also must concede that to a certain extent we say here
"Ein Mukdam u'Me'uchar ba'Torah," because he was 75 when he left Charan,
which is mentioned in the Parshah before the Bris Bein ha'Besarim. Tosfos
in Shabbos also agrees that he returned to Charan after the Bris Bein
ha'Besarim.
4) Now I am going to suggest an answer to Rav Horowitz's question on
Tosfos. It is simply to use the principle of "Ein Mukdam u'Me'uchar
ba'Torah" again. It should just be noted that the idea behind this very
important rule is that the Torah is not a history book. The aim of the
Torah is not to provide us with chronological historical information, but
rather to teach us about the deeds of the great leaders of our nation.
Therefore, we do not have to be perturbed if occasionally chronology is
broken for the sake of teaching certain lessons. Having said that, I now
suggest that according to Tosfos the war with the kings happened before the
friction between the shepherds of Avraham and Lot, and after the Bris Bein
ha'Besarim, even though this is not the order in which the Torah records
them. This answers the question of Rav Horowitz, because Avraham and Lot
left Charan together and went down to, and came back from, Egypt together,
but the war with the kings took place 2 years earlier.
---
Betzalel Gersten asks:
Dear Dovid Bloom
We are well aware of Ain Mukdam U'Muachar B'Torah - Tosfos himself and
everyone agrees the Torah goes out of order, because the beginning of Lech
Lecha (Beraishis 12) Avraham is 75 and at Bris Bein HaBetarim (Beraishis
15:7) Avraham is 70. That would have been fine. Ain Mukdam U'Muachar
B'Torah is not enough to solve the problem I am asking.
All agree the Torah is not a history book, and it is welcome to jump around
(there are many cases)
When the Torah itself it is giving ages, dates, people and places it must
be consistent within itself chronologically, especially when certain events
must logically follow before or after other events.
For example, in Parshas Toldos, we are told that Yitzchak and Rivka married
when Yitzcha was 40, and had children when Yitchak was 60, then the Torah
tells us about the sale of the birthright when the twins are 15 (Yitzchak
75, Avraham died at 175). Then from Beraishis 26:1-33 no mention of Yaakov
or Eisav. Here it makes sense to say Ain Mukdam U'Muachar B'Torah that this
happened when Yitzchak was between 40-60 because it is solving a problem
(where did Yaakov and Eisav go??).¦nbsp;
The problem is that Tosfos explains that at the end of Beraishis 14 Avraham
is apparently 73, which is unneeded and unnecessary Ain Mukdam U'Muachar
B'Torah since the events from Beraishis 12:1 flow naturally until Beraishis
15:6, and if you want to add another in Ain Mukdam U'Muachar B'Torah then
you have to figure out where exactly is the flashback in that section.
Going to Egypt must have happened after Lech Lecha with Lot (see how 13:3
proves that referencing back to 12:8), Coming out of Egypt with wealth with
Lot (13:1) must follow going to Egypt. The shepherd arguing over wealth
(13:6-7) must follow Coming out of Egypt with wealth. Lot moving to Sdom
(13:12) must follow shepherds arguing. Lot getting captured (14:12) must
follow Lot going to Sdom (14:12 even says for he was residing in Sdom).
Avraham saving Lot must follow Lot getting captured (14:13 says Avraham was
residing at that time in Elonei Mamrei, and that Eshkol, Aner and Mamrei
were Bnei Bris Avraham - are you telling me this is before Lech Lecha
12:1). Avraham addressing the King of Sdom must follow saving Lot, and so
forth...
Where exactly is the flashback in time that we go from Avraham 75 to
Avraham 73, and why invent something like this when it is not necessary.
What I'm asking you to figure out is...What is Tosfos's need! What's
bothering him that he is suggesting that Avraham was in Canaan and Lot was
in Sdom when Avraham was 73, and then after Lot was captured and saved,
they both went back to Charan to live there for two years, Avraham was
commanded Lech Lecha, went to Egypt, became wealthy, and Lot again chooses
to go live in Sdom (13:12) when Avraham is 75 until its destruction, and
Avraham again chooses to live in Elonei Mamrei (see 13:18).
The simple, flowing, perfect understanding is that at 14:1 there is a
flashback to well before Bris Bein HaBitarim when Avraham is in his late
40s, telling us of the background and history of Emek HaSidim and the
various kings and nations there by the Dead Sea region, and how that
narrative climaxes and merges directly into where the Torah left off, when
Avraham is 75+ (not 73) and everything makes perfect sense.
What piece of information are we missing. There must be some fact somewhere
that is forcing Tosfos away from this simple pshat to invent that Avraham
and Lot are living normal lives in certain places in Canaan, when Avraham
is 73, before they were commanded Lech Lecha, and then they all go back to
Charan for two years, until Avraham is 75, then Hashem commands them all
with this big test Lech Lecha, and after a brief stay in Egypt, they both
end up in the same places they were two years ago, only its two years
later. It seems like the history of Sdom is forcing him, but the Tosfos in
Shabbos proves that the history of Sdom does not cause any problem?
Let me know if you have anything better
Take your time
All the best,
Betzalel
----------------------------------------------
The Kollel replies:
The thing that is forcing Tosfos to say that Avraham was 73 at the time of
the war with the kings is the Gemara in Shabbos 10b-11a. There the Gemara
states that Sedom enjoyed 26 tranquil years. Tosfos prefers to say that
these 26 years were consecutive, not broken up. Therefore, since we know
that Avraham was 99 at the time Sedom was destroyed (because this was one
year before Yitzchak was born, by which time Avraham was 100), it follows
that Avraham was 73 = 99 - 26 at the time of the war with the kings, since
the tranquil years of Sedom started immediately after the war with the
kings.
2) This is written by Rashi in Shabbos 11a, DH Esrim -- that the tranquil
years were the last 26, and Tosfos agrees with Rashi on this. It is also
stated briefly by Tosfos in Shabbos 10b, DH v'Shel at the beginning, that
since there were 26 tranquil years, this means that Avraham was 73 at the
time of the war. Tosfos in Shabbos then proceeds to cite the Seder Olam
that maintains that Avraham was 75 at the time of the war with the kings.
This does not mean that Tosfos retracted from his opinion that Avraham was
73 at the time of the war, but rather Tosfos maintains that this point is a
dispute between our Talmud Bavli and the Seder Olam. Since the Seder Olam
was also from Chazal (it was written by the Tana Rebbi Yosi) -- it is quite
reasonable to assert that there is a dispute between Sedr Olam and Talmud
Bavli.
Tosfos in Shabbos asks on the Seder Olam that if Avraham was 75 in the war
with the kings, that means the tranquility of Sedom was only 99 - 75 = 24
years. Tosfos answers that one has to say that there were an additional two
years of tranquility at the beginning of the history of Sedom. However,
this is not an ideal solution, to break up the tranquil years of Sedom into
two periods, and Tosfos maintains that the Talmud Bavli does not agree with
this.
I must close here but in my next reply, b'Siyata di'Shmaya, I hope to look
at the Rosh in Yevamos, chapter 6, Siman 12, and the Korban Nesanel there
#9, which might make matters a lot clearer. There we may learn more about
the different journeys of Avraham and Lot back and forth from Charan to
Eretz Kena'an.
Betzalel, many thanks for making this topic a lot clearer.
Kol Tuv,
Dovid Bloom
>>><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><<<
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