> Where else to discuss it? It should be constructive, yes. But we are all > here to learn and grow with Cassandra. The original question is a good > one. The direction it took was poor.
Agreed, hijacking unrelated threads is not good netizenry. There's obviously a lot of strong opinions here, but we should keep discussions about overall project health from bleeding into other conversations. On Tue, Jun 14, 2016 at 2:42 AM Benjamin Lerer <benjamin.le...@datastax.com> wrote: > Hi Chris, > > Thanks for your advice. > > However, according to the Apache Way: > > " PMCs are expected to follow corporate policies in terms of licensing, > branding, infrastructure and so on, and are expected to manage their > projects independently using The Apache Way. PMCs are tasked with all other > aspects of project management, especially technical direction. " > > and according to the Bylaws of The Apache Software Foundation: > > "Subject to the direction of the Board of Directors, the chairman of each > Project Management Committee shall be primarily responsible for project(s) > managed by such committee, and he or she shall establish rules and > procedures for the day to day management of project(s) for which the > committee is responsible." > > which appears to me to be exactly what Jonathan is doing. > > Concerning your question below: > > > However also see that besides the current documentation, there needs to > be > > a roadmap for making Apache Cassandra and *its* documentation (not > *DataStax’s*) > > up to par for a basic user to build, deploy and run Cassandra. I don’t > think that’s > > the current case, is it? > > The current documentation is indeed not complete but covers far more than > the basics. > > > On Mon, Jun 13, 2016 at 3:05 PM, Mattmann, Chris A (3980) < > chris.a.mattm...@jpl.nasa.gov> wrote: > > > Hi Benjamin, > > > > > > > > On 6/13/16, 6:38 AM, "Benjamin Lerer" <benjamin.le...@datastax.com> > wrote: > > > > >Hi Chris, > > > > > >Disclaimer: I am a Datastax employee > > > > > >It is clear to me that the current official documentation is far from > > being > > >enough. That's why I fully support the decision made by Jonathan to do > our > > >best to improve it. > > > > Just as a small piece of advice - it seems like Jonathan is the “boss” of > > this > > project. I’ve spoken with him here and there - he’s a great guy don’t get > > me > > wrong - but Apache projects don’t have bosses. He is the chair of the > > project - > > that earns him the great glory having to write a board report every month > > after > > the project is created, and quarterly thereafter. The chair is expected > to > > be > > the eyes and ears of the project for the board. The project has a > “Project > > Management Committee (PMC) or PMC” responsible jointly for stewarding the > > project. There is also a “Committer” role at the ASF. Some communities > > define > > PMC == C. The committer role does not have a binding VOTE on releases of > > the > > software and/or on additions of new personnel to the project. > > > > The reason I pointed this out and it may have just been me misreading but > > it sounded like you suggested something like: Jonathan makes decision for > > the project; you all jump. And I am just saying I hope that’s not the > case. > > You all should have equal decision making ability in the project > especially > > on the PMC. > > > > > > > >As an Apache Cassandra Committer mostly working on the CQL layer, I know > > >that we have done our best to keep the CQL documentation up to date > > >(https://cassandra.apache.org/doc/cql3/CQL-3.0.html). Now, English not > > >being the native language of some of us, and as we are not technical > > >writers, I would not really be surprised if some external persons have > > done > > >a better job than us. > > > > > >I think our goal should be to provide an accurate and reliable > > >documentation for the project. > > > > I would amend the above to add “for the project[at the ASF]”. That’s > > the thing - as a *first* (and not *second*) though, the ASF project > > should be getting careful attention and that includes the documentation. > > > > > > > Nevertheless, it seems legitimate to me to > > >also provide links to external documentations, when people are asking > for > > >it, if others did a better job than us. > > > > Sure, this happens in some projects from time to time. When there isn’t > > a perception of control, it is possible to do this, especially if > > coinciding > > with the external links there is some roadmap or some plan for actually > > keeping > > the ASF documentation up to date. Real data point here - I wrote a book > > about > > Apache Tika, Tika in Action. This was done, with frequent updates on > what’s > > going on to d...@tika.apache.org. Over time, eventually we worked with > > Manning > > Publications to donate the code samples and examples from the book to the > > Apache > > Tika project. Much of the book inspiration and examples made it into > > Apache Tika > > in parallel to the goings-on outside. > > > > In a neutral playing ground it’s sometimes fine to point to external > > sources. > > When those external sources usually boil down to a company’s web pages, > and > > there is strong perception that company is controlling the project, you > > can see > > the dichotomy here. > > > > > > > >The conclusion that we can draw from Buhvan response is that the > official > > >documentation is probably currently not good enough as he is pointing to > > >it. I believe that once we will have solve this problem, people will be > > >more likely to make a reference to it. Until then, we should not be > > >surprised if people are not pointing to it. > > > > See above. > > > > However also see that besides the current documentation, there needs to > be > > a roadmap for making Apache Cassandra and *its* documentation (not > > *DataStax’s*) > > up to par for a basic user to build, deploy and run Cassandra. I don’t > > think that’s > > the current case, is it? > > > > Thanks for your email. I am hoping that we can work together to > > get the project’s documentation (and also its governance) in a > > better shape. > > > > Cheers, > > Chris > > > > ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > > Chris Mattmann, Ph.D. > > Chief Architect > > Instrument Software and Science Data Systems Section (398) > > NASA Jet Propulsion Laboratory Pasadena, CA 91109 USA > > Office: 168-519, Mailstop: 168-527 > > Email: chris.a.mattm...@nasa.gov > > WWW: http://sunset.usc.edu/~mattmann/ > > ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > > Director, Information Retrieval and Data Science Group (IRDS) > > Adjunct Associate Professor, Computer Science Department > > University of Southern California, Los Angeles, CA 90089 USA > > WWW: http://irds.usc.edu/ > > ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > > > > > > > > > > > > > >On Sun, Jun 12, 2016 at 5:16 PM, Chris Mattmann <mattm...@apache.org> > > wrote: > > > > > >> Hi Harmeet, > > >> > > >> The dev list is the lifeblood of an Apache project, and > > >> projects here at the ASF conduct 99% of their business in > > >> public, not in private. The ASF is a non-profit for the > > >> public good and we have a tradition of openness and > > >> transparency. > > >> > > >> Even if the business isn’t pleasant some times, it must > > >> be discussed, in public. The committers and PMC members for > > >> > > >> the code base - the name of which is *Apache* Cassandra as > > >> the project is here at the *Apache Software Foundation* - > > >> are Apache Software Foundation committers first, when they > > >> deal or steward the Apache code-base. Even before their > > >> $dayjobs. > > >> > > >> Cheers, > > >> Chris > > >> > > >> > > >> On 6/11/16, 11:54 PM, "mylistt...@gmail.com" <mylistt...@gmail.com> > > wrote: > > >> > > >> >Dear All, > > >> > > > >> >I am user of Cassandra. I am grateful to each of you for providing > your > > >> time as committers to the code base for a great product. > > >> > > > >> >This is what I wanted to suggest - could you gentlemen not create a > > group > > >> email Id to discuss matters of such importance amongst yourselves. > > Using > > >> the dev list I am not sure is the best place. I have been reading > emails > > >> where insinuations have being made - if a particular company may high > > jack > > >> the code base etc. > > >> > > > >> >We are all developers , we love our code. I don't think this is right > > >> forum to bring things out of this proportion , read wash dirty linen. > > >> > > > >> >Pardon me if you think my opinion or inputs are wrong. > > >> > > > >> >I am newbie on Cassandra. I use it as an application developer. I > don't > > >> have any intention to judge your experiences or thoughts. Just saying > > this > > >> could be done in a finer way without most if us getting to know about > > it. > > >> > > > >> >Regards, > > >> >Harmeet > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> >On Jun 12, 2016, at 2:31, Tom Barber <tom.bar...@meteorite.bi> > wrote: > > >> > > > >> >> Looking at that thread, I'm surprised you didn't call Dave out as > > well, > > >> >> that attitude did no one any favours. > > >> >> > > >> >>> Because lets all face the > > >> >>> facts here, no one "likes" writing drivers and documentation, and > I > > >> have > > >> >>> done both for this project. > > >> >> > > >> >> That's clearly incorrect, I (and I suspect other people) like > writing > > >> docs > > >> >> because it means people can use your tools in a much easier manner > > than > > >> >> looking through the code or unit tests. > > >> >> > > >> >> Tooling can be a burden but it doesn't excuse not writing docs, > even > > if > > >> it > > >> >> becomes a PMC type rule for committers to commit Docs for new > > features > > >> like > > >> >> they should be committing unit tests. At least it improves what is > > >> shipped > > >> >> with the Apache project in question. > > >> >> > > >> >> Tom > > >> >> > > >> >> On Sat, Jun 11, 2016 at 7:21 PM, Chris Mattmann < > mattm...@apache.org > > > > > >> wrote: > > >> >> > > >> >>> Hi Russell, > > >> >>> > > >> >>> [CC/board@, board members may want to join the > > >> >>> Apache Cassandra lists for specifics and further > > >> >>> engagement] > > >> >>> > > >> >>> Multiple things that need to be addressed below, but TL;DR: > > >> >>> > > >> >>> 1. I have asked the Apache Cassandra PMC, and its chair, to > provide > > >> >>> a detailed description on how the project *isn’t* controlled by an > > >> >>> external entity in its next monthly board report. The below > further > > >> >>> re-enforces the control. Further, it re-enforces the vitriol and > > >> >>> name calling attitude when questioned and when someone suggests > > >> >>> pointing to the Apache documentation and making it better as a > first > > >> >>> step. I plan on making it very loudly known at our next board > > meeting > > >> >>> that something is awry. CC/board@ ahead of time on that. > > >> >>> > > >> >>> 2. You don’t seem to understand Apache. This is unfortunate. I > > >> >>> went to go look you up and see if you are a PMC member for Apache > > >> >>> Cassandra. Funny enough, the main page doesn’t even link to the > PMC > > >> >>> (I couldn’t find a direct link). This isn’t even correct with > > respect > > >> >>> to Apache branding guidelines here at the ASF. Shane, would you > > >> >>> like to comment here? For an FYI to everyone, see: > > >> >>> http://www.apache.org/foundation/marks/pmcs.html > > >> >>> > > >> >>> After a Google Search, I found this page: > > >> >>> https://wiki.apache.org/cassandra/Committers > > >> >>> > > >> >>> That looks way out of date. Luckily there is the > project.apache.org > > >> >>> ASF page: https://projects.apache.org/committee.html?cassandra > > >> >>> > > >> >>> Which indicates you aren’t a committer or PMC member of the > project. > > >> >>> This is unfortunate. If you wrote a book for projects I work on, I > > >> >>> would have hopefully long before and along the way got involved in > > >> >>> the community, and encouraged you to contribute to the *core > effort > > >> >>> here at the ASF* and took you on the path towards becoming a PMC > > >> >>> member in the *Apache project that is the core effort*. > > >> >>> > > >> >>> In short, I can see why you don’t understand Apache. It’s likely > > >> >>> due to the fact that the Apache Cassandra PMC doesn’t seem to get > > >> >>> it either. If they did, they would have worked to explain it to > > >> >>> you. More on that later. > > >> >>> > > >> >>> 3. The fact that you think “the companies that I try to [sic] > vilify > > >> >>> are the *future* of projects like this” isn’t just a statement > that > > >> >>> indicates you don’t get Apache. That someone in the community > (which > > >> >>> includes you even though you aren’t a committer or on the PMC) > would > > >> >>> think the “companies” are the “future” of any ASF project is just > > >> >>> way way bad. Like way bad. Off the rails bad. We are *individuals* > > >> >>> here, not companies. > > >> >>> > > >> >>> 4. You state you have wrote drivers and documentation for this > > >> >>> project. Yet you aren’t a PMC member or committer at the ASF. > Ever > > >> >>> scratch your head and wonder why? By itself, again, sometimes > there > > >> >>> are reasons for this. Taken in context, there is something REALLY > > >> >>> wrong here. > > >> >>> > > >> >>> Now, more specific replies inline below. Jonathan and PMC members > > >> >>> for Apache Cassandra. Please take time to explain in your report > > >> >>> what’s going on. I’m hopeful with mentorship and guidance and time > > >> >>> this can be addressed but right now, not really happy with what > > >> >>> I’m seeing. > > >> >>> > > >> >>> > > >> >>> > > >> >>> ********** > > >> >>> Specific comments > > >> >>> > > >> >>> On 6/11/16, 9:48 AM, "Russell Bradberry" <rbradbe...@gmail.com> > > wrote: > > >> >>> > > >> >>>> I respectfully disagree. "Newbies" should be pointed in the > > direction > > >> >>> that > > >> >>>> will ensure the highest possibility of their success with the > > product. > > >> >>>> This is the best decision for the project, regardless of where > the > > >> >>>> documentation may reside. > > >> >>> > > >> >>> While I agree with pointing Newbies to the point where > > >> >>> there is the best documentation - I don’t agree that place > > >> >>> should be outside of the Apache project. > > >> >>> > > >> >>>> > > >> >>>> As one of the authors of an early book on Cassandra, the reason > we > > >> wrote > > >> >>> it > > >> >>>> was because the ASF documentation was abysmal. > > >> >>> > > >> >>> What did you do to try and counteract this? Did you attempt to > > submit > > >> >>> documentation patches and/or to submit documentation that would > > address > > >> >>> that? > > >> >>> > > >> >>>> Now I am happy to say that > > >> >>>> the book I wrote is obsolete, not just because it was written > > against > > >> an > > >> >>>> early version of Cassandra, but because the external > documentation > > is > > >> so > > >> >>>> thorough the need for a book to be written in no longer present. > > >> >>> > > >> >>> I had no problem with your statement until you put “external” > before > > >> the > > >> >>> word “documentation”. > > >> >>> > > >> >>>> > > >> >>>> If the ASF and the PMC want to promote internal documentation, > > then a > > >> >>>> serious amount of time and effort needs to be put into the > > >> documentation. > > >> >>>> This goes for every project in the ASF. The current state of > > >> documentation > > >> >>>> in any of the Apache projects sub-standard at best. > > >> >>> > > >> >>> This, unfortunately, is a strawman. I tell you that ASF projects > > should > > >> >>> have > > >> >>> the documentation that is required to run and should be the > *first* > > >> place > > >> >>> you point users to for your documentation. You respond, well the > ASF > > >> >>> projects > > >> >>> have crappy documentation as a whole. I totally disagree with > that. > > >> Here’s > > >> >>> some examples: Tika, Nutch, Solr/Lucene, Subversion, HTTPD, Spark, > > >> Hadoop, > > >> >>> Maven, I could easily go on. > > >> >>> > > >> >>> A project that has been around as long as *Apache* (note I keep > > putting > > >> >>> *Apache* in front of the project name too - something I don’t see > > all > > >> too > > >> >>> often so far and something you should get used to) Cassandra > should > > >> know > > >> >>> better. This isn’t a new Incubator project. > > >> >>> > > >> >>>> > > >> >>>> You make mention, several times, of the community, and in this > case > > >> the > > >> >>>> community has decided that the best source of documentation is > the > > one > > >> >>> that > > >> >>>> has had a company put financial investment into it. You can't > > expect > > >> a > > >> >>>> community of unpaid volunteers to be able to coordinate and > > contribute > > >> >>>> something of that high quality. > > >> >>> > > >> >>> Yes, I can. And yes, we do. That’s what we do at the ASF. It’s > > worked > > >> >>> for many, many years, before, Apache Cassandra. It will work long > > after > > >> >>> it too. > > >> >>> > > >> >>>> > > >> >>>> Full disclosure, I am *not* on the PMC, nor am I an employee of > > >> DataStax > > >> >>> or > > >> >>>> any other company that provides support for an open source > > project. I > > >> am a > > >> >>>> member of the community that sees the highest probability of > > success > > >> of > > >> >>>> this project being that the PMC supports the development of the > > core > > >> >>>> product while the ancillary pieces like documentation and drivers > > get > > >> >>>> supported by those who are paid to support it. Because lets all > > face > > >> the > > >> >>>> facts here, no one "likes" writing drivers and documentation, > and I > > >> have > > >> >>>> done both for this project. > > >> >>> > > >> >>> Plenty of people are paid to support OSS software, even OSS > software > > >> at the > > >> >>> ASF. But we must be diligent to wear our $dayjob hats, in contrast > > to > > >> the > > >> >>> ASF hats, and to do what’s right for the effort at Apache, since > in > > >> cases > > >> >>> such as this, it is the *Apache* project, its community, and its > > >> license, > > >> >>> that are friendly to downstream users (even companies). > > >> >>> > > >> >>>> > > >> >>>> Suffice it to say, that in my opinion, these "companies" that you > > >> seem to > > >> >>>> be trying so hard to vilify are the future of projects like this. > > They > > >> >>> fill > > >> >>>> the gap that the ASF leaves with its volunteer based model. > > >> >>>> > > >> >>>> Also, to address your thinly veiled and pointed comments as of > > late. > > >> It > > >> >>>> seems you have already made up your mind about DataStax and are > > >> continuing > > >> >>>> in an effort to prove your point. Doing this in a public manner > is > > >> toxic > > >> >>>> for the community and will do nothing more than to divide it and > > risk > > >> >>>> failure of the project. I suggest you confer with the PMC and > the > > >> company > > >> >>>> *privately* to determine what is best for the project and > > ultimately > > >> the > > >> >>>> community. > > >> >>> > > >> >>> This statement above, sadly, indicates how broken the governance > of > > >> >>> this project is. 99% of all discussion in the ASF is public. The > > only > > >> >>> discussion in private is that adding new PMC members and/or > > committers. > > >> >>> Would have been nice for someone long long long before me, to tell > > you > > >> >>> that. > > >> >>> > > >> >>> Cheers, > > >> >>> Chris > > >> >>> > > >> >>>> > > >> >>>> Best, > > >> >>>> -Russell Bradberry > > >> >>>> > > >> >>>> On Sat, Jun 11, 2016 at 12:16 PM, Mattmann, Chris A (3980) < > > >> >>>> chris.a.mattm...@jpl.nasa.gov> wrote: > > >> >>>> > > >> >>>>> Hi Everyone, > > >> >>>>> > > >> >>>>> While this may be a current great source of documentation on > > >> >>>>> Cassandra, and while it exists externally, the PMC should be > > >> >>>>> be promoting (and hopefully ensuring) that the source of > > >> documentation > > >> >>>>> for Apache Cassandra is here at the ASF. > > >> >>>>> > > >> >>>>> I’m happy to be corrected that that is the case, and/or that > > >> >>>>> I’ve missed something, but the first reply to questions like > > >> >>>>> this from newbies shouldn’t be to point to an external website. > > >> >>>>> > > >> >>>>> Cheers, > > >> >>>>> Chris > > >> >>>>> > > >> >>>>> > ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > > >> >>>>> Chris Mattmann, Ph.D. > > >> >>>>> Chief Architect > > >> >>>>> Instrument Software and Science Data Systems Section (398) > > >> >>>>> NASA Jet Propulsion Laboratory Pasadena, CA 91109 USA > > >> >>>>> Office: 168-519, Mailstop: 168-527 > > >> >>>>> Email: chris.a.mattm...@nasa.gov > > >> >>>>> WWW: http://sunset.usc.edu/~mattmann/ > > >> >>>>> > ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > > >> >>>>> Director, Information Retrieval and Data Science Group (IRDS) > > >> >>>>> Adjunct Associate Professor, Computer Science Department > > >> >>>>> University of Southern California, Los Angeles, CA 90089 USA > > >> >>>>> WWW: http://irds.usc.edu/ > > >> >>>>> > ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > > >> >>>>> > > >> >>>>> > > >> >>>>> > > >> >>>>> > > >> >>>>> > > >> >>>>> > > >> >>>>> > > >> >>>>> > > >> >>>>> > > >> >>>>> On 6/11/16, 8:54 AM, "Bhuvan Rawal" <bhu1ra...@gmail.com> > wrote: > > >> >>>>> > > >> >>>>>> Hi Deepak, > > >> >>>>>> > > >> >>>>>> You can try Datastax Docs, they are most extensive and updated > > >> >>>>>> documentation available. > > >> >>>>>> As Cassandra is a fast developing technology I wonder if there > > is a > > >> >>> Book > > >> >>>>> in > > >> >>>>>> the market which covers latest features like Materialized > Views/ > > >> SASI > > >> >>>>> Index > > >> >>>>>> or new SSTable Format. I believe the best starting point would > be > > >> the > > >> >>>>>> Academy Tutorials and further Planet Cassandra - A week in > > Cassandra > > >> >>>>> series > > >> >>>>>> provides good overview of blogs and developments by Cassandra > > >> >>> Evangelists. > > >> >>>>>> It also provides link of top blogs which help understand > internal > > >> >>> working > > >> >>>>>> of the Database. > > >> >>>>>> > > >> >>>>>> However if you still feel the need, you may refer to books, > here > > are > > >> >>> some > > >> >>>>>> that I know of - > > >> >>>>>> Beginning Apache Cassandra Development - Vivek Mishra - 2014 - > > Link > > >> >>>>>> < > > >> >>>>> > > >> >>> > > >> > > > https://www.amazon.com/Beginning-Apache-Cassandra-Development-Mishra/dp/1484201434 > > >> >>>>>> > > >> >>>>>> Cassandra Data Modeling and Analysis - 2014 C.Y. Kan - Link > > >> >>>>>> < > > >> >>>>> > > >> >>> > > >> > > > https://www.amazon.com/Cassandra-Data-Modeling-Analysis-C-Y/dp/1783988886/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1465659906&sr=1-1&keywords=cassandra+data+modeling+and+analysis > > >> >>>>>> > > >> >>>>>> Mastering Apache Cassandra - Second Edition - March 26 2015 - > > Link > > >> >>>>>> < > > >> >>>>> > > >> >>> > > >> > > > https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1784392618/ref=pd_lpo_sbs_dp_ss_3?pf_rd_p=1944687622&pf_rd_s=lpo-top-stripe-1&pf_rd_t=201&pf_rd_i=1484201434&pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_r=YVM1QBXHKAFK18J1XBAC > > >> >>>>>> > > >> >>>>>> Cassandra Design Patterns - 2015 - Link > > >> >>>>>> < > > >> >>>>> > > >> >>> > > >> > > > https://www.amazon.com/Cassandra-Design-Patterns-Rajanarayanan-Thottuvaikkatumana/dp/178528570X/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1465659937&sr=1-1&keywords=cassandra+design+patterns > > >> >>>>>> > > >> >>>>>> Cassandra High Availability - 2014 - Link > > >> >>>>>> < > > >> >>>>> > > >> >>> > > >> > > > https://www.amazon.com/Cassandra-High-Availability-Robbie-Strickland/dp/1783989122/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1465659975&sr=1-1&keywords=cassandra+high+availability > > >> >>>>>> > > >> >>>>>> Learning Apache Cassandra - Manage Fault Tolerant and Scalable > > >> >>> Real-Time > > >> >>>>>> Data - 2015 - Link > > >> >>>>>> < > > >> >>>>> > > >> >>> > > >> > > > https://www.amazon.com/Learning-Apache-Cassandra-Tolerant-Real-Time/dp/1783989203/ref=sr_1_3?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1465659975&sr=1-3&keywords=cassandra+high+availability > > >> >>>>>> > > >> >>>>>> > > >> >>>>>> Best Regards, > > >> >>>>>> Bhuvan > > >> >>>>>> Datastax Certified Architect > > >> >>>>>> > > >> >>>>>> On Sat, Jun 11, 2016 at 8:28 PM, Deepak Goel < > deic...@gmail.com> > > >> >>> wrote: > > >> >>>>>> > > >> >>>>>>> Hey > > >> >>>>>>> > > >> >>>>>>> Namaskara~Nalama~Guten Tag~Bonjour > > >> >>>>>>> > > >> >>>>>>> I am a newbie. > > >> >>>>>>> > > >> >>>>>>> Which would be the best book for a newbie to learn Cassandra? > > >> >>>>>>> > > >> >>>>>>> Thank You > > >> >>>>>>> Deepak > > >> >>>>>>> -- > > >> >>>>>>> Keigu > > >> >>>>>>> > > >> >>>>>>> Deepak > > >> >>>>>>> 73500 12833 > > >> >>>>>>> www.simtree.net, dee...@simtree.net > > >> >>>>>>> deic...@gmail.com > > >> >>>>>>> > > >> >>>>>>> LinkedIn: www.linkedin.com/in/deicool > > >> >>>>>>> Skype: thumsupdeicool > > >> >>>>>>> Google talk: deicool > > >> >>>>>>> Blog: http://loveandfearless.wordpress.com > > >> >>>>>>> Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/deicool > > >> >>>>>>> > > >> >>>>>>> "Contribute to the world, environment and more : > > >> >>>>>>> http://www.gridrepublic.org > > >> >>>>>>> " > > >> >>>>>>> > > >> >>>>> > > >> >>> > > >> >>> > > >> > > >> > > >
