"I’m sorry you had a bad experience, but it feels like that’s the normal ebb and flow of projects.”
I’m sorry - that should have been - I’m sorry some ideas were not accepted, but it feels like that’s the normal ebb and flow of projects. I am sorry you had a bad experience - without any qualification :) Kind regards, Jeremy > On Nov 4, 2016, at 10:58 PM, Jeremy Hanna <jeremy.hanna1...@gmail.com> wrote: > > Hi Łukasz, > > I’m sorry you found the projects difficult to work with. It sounds like in > this case it was about modularizing with Maven and making TinkerPop work > better with OSGI. People in the project have been going back and forth about > the build process since before Riptano and DataStax existed and the decisions > by the PMC and community remained constant - they just wanted to stick with a > more explicit build system with ant - sure it’s preference based, but that’s > where things were before DataStax was even started. With regard to OSGI, it > sounds like it was just not an item that they saw as a priority at the time > but were open to considering in the future. I thought Stephen was very open > and generally he bends over backwards to help people as you can find in many > other interactions on Stack Overflow, various gremlin, titan, and tinkerpop > mailing lists. I’ve opened a lot of TinkerPop tickets, some are accepted, > some aren’t. I need to do better about doing my part as well to do things > with tickets that I commit to in TinkerPop. I’m sorry you had a bad > experience, but it feels like that’s the normal ebb and flow of projects. > That said, we can do a better job in either explaining or being more > welcoming - that’s nothing to do with any company though. That’s a community > thing. > > Kind regards, > > Jeremy > >> On Nov 4, 2016, at 8:03 PM, Łukasz Dywicki <l...@code-house.org> wrote: >> >> Good evening, >> I feel myself a bit called to table by both Kelly and Chris. Thing is I >> don’t know personally nor have any relationship with both of you. I’m not >> even ASF member. My tweet was simply reaction for Kelly complaints about ASF >> punishing out DataStax. Kelly timeline also contained statement such >> "forming a long term strategy to grow diversity around” which reminded me my >> attempts to collaborate on Cassandra and Tinkerpop projects to grow such >> diversity. I collected message links and quotes and put it into gist who >> could be read by anyone: >> https://gist.github.com/splatch/aebe4ad4d127922642bee0dc9a8b1ec1 >> >> I don’t want to bring now these topics back and disscuss technical stuff >> over again. It happened to me in the past to refuse (or vote against) some >> change proposals in other Apache projects I am involved. I was on the other >> ("bad guy") side multiple times. I simply collected public records of >> interactions with DataStax staff I was aware, simply because of my personal >> involvement. It shown how some ideas, yet cassandra mailing list don’t have >> many of these coming from externals, are getting put a side with very little >> or even lack of will to pull in others people work in. This is blocking >> point for anyone coming from external sides to get involved into project and >> help it growing. If someone changes requires moves in project core or it’s >> public APIs that person will require support from project members to get >> this done. If such help will not be given it any outside change will be ever >> completed and noone will invest time in doing something more than fixing >> typos or common programmer errors which we all do from time to time. Despite >> of impersonal nature of communications in Internet we still do have human >> interactions and we all have just one chance to make first impression. If we >> made it wrong at beginning its hard to fix it later on. >> Some decisions made in past by project PMCs lead to situation that project >> was forked and maintained outside ASF (ie. stratio cassandra which >> eventually ended up as lucene indexes plugin over a year ago), some other >> did hurt users running cassandra for long time (ie. discontinuation of >> thrift). Especially second decission was seen by outsiders, who do not >> desire billion writes per second, as marketing driven. This led to people >> looking and finding alternatives using compatible interface which might be, >> ironically, even faster (ie. scylladb). >> >> And since there was quote battle on twitter between Jim Jagielski and >> Benedict, I can throw some in as well. Over conferences I attended and even >> during consultancy services I got, I’ve spoken with some people having >> records of DataStax in their resumes and even them told me "collaboration >> with them [cassandra team] was hard". Now imagine how outsider will get any >> chance to get any change done with such attitude shown even to own >> colleagues? Must also note that Tinkerpop is getting better on this field >> since it has much more generic nature. >> I don’t think this whole topic is to say that you (meaning DataStax) made >> wrong job, or you are doing wrong for project but about letting others join >> forces with you to make Cassandra even better. Maybe there is not a lot of >> people currently walking around but once you will welcome and help them >> working with you on code base you may be sure that others will join making >> your development efforts easier and shared across community. >> >> Kind regards, >> Lukasz >> >>> Wiadomość napisana przez Edward Capriolo <edlinuxg...@gmail.com> w dniu 4 >>> lis 2016, o godz. 18:55: >>> >>> On Thu, Nov 3, 2016 at 11:44 PM, Kelly Sommers <kell.somm...@gmail.com> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> I think the community needs some clarification about what's going on. >>>> There's a really concerning shift going on and the story about why is >>>> really blurry. I've heard all kinds of wild claims about what's going on. >>>> >>>> I've heard people say the ASF is pushing DataStax out because they don't >>>> like how much control they have over Cassandra. I've heard other people say >>>> DataStax and the ASF aren't getting along. I've heard one person who has >>>> pull with a friend in the ASF complained about a feature not getting >>>> considered (who also didn't go down the correct path of proposing) kicked >>>> and screamed and started the ball rolling for control change. >>>> >>>> I don't know what's going on, and I doubt the truth is in any of those, the >>>> truth is probably somewhere in between. As a former Cassandra MVP and >>>> builder of some of the larger Cassandra clusters in the last 3 years I'm >>>> concerned. >>>> >>>> I've been really happy with Jonathan and DataStax's role in the Cassandra >>>> community. I think they have done a great job at investing time and money >>>> towards the good interest in the project. I think it is unavoidable a >>>> single company bootstraps large projects like this into popularity. It's >>>> those companies investments who give the ability to grow diversity in later >>>> stages. The committer list in my opinion is the most diverse its ever been, >>>> hasn't it? Apple is a big player now. >>>> >>>> I don't think reducing DataStax's role for the sake of diversity is smart. >>>> You grow diversity by opening up new opportunities for others. Grow the >>>> committer list perhaps. Mentor new people to join that list. You don't kick >>>> someone to the curb and hope things improve. You add. >>>> >>>> I may be way off on what I'm seeing but there's not much to go by but >>>> gossip (ahaha :P) and some ASF meeting notes and DataStax blog posts. >>>> >>>> August 17th 2016 ASF changed the Apache Cassandra chair >>>> https://www.apache.org/foundation/records/minutes/ >>>> 2016/board_minutes_2016_08_17.txt >>>> >>>> "The Board expressed continuing concern that the PMC was not acting >>>> independently and that one company had undue influence over the project." >>>> >>>> August 19th 2016 Jonothan Ellis steps down as chair >>>> http://www.datastax.com/2016/08/a-look-back-a-look-forward >>>> >>>> November 2nd 2016 DataStax moves committers to DSE from Cassandra. >>>> http://www.datastax.com/2016/11/serving-customers-serving-the-community >>>> >>>> I'm really concerned if indeed the ASF is trying to change control and >>>> diversity of organizations by reducing DataStax's role. As I said earlier, >>>> I've been really happy at the direction DataStax and Jonathan has taken the >>>> project and I would much prefer see additional opportunities along side >>>> theirs grow instead of subtracting. The ultimate question that's really >>>> important is whether DataStax and Jonathan have been steering the project >>>> in the right direction. If the answer is yes, then is there really anything >>>> broken? Only if the answer is no should change happen, in my opinion. >>>> >>>> Can someone at the ASF please clarify what is going on? The ASF meeting >>>> notes are very concerning. >>>> >>>> Thank you for listening, >>>> Kelly Sommers >>>> >>> >>> Kelly, >>> >>> Thank you for taking the time to mention this. I want to react to this >>> statement: >>> >>> "I've heard people say the ASF is pushing DataStax out because they don't >>> like how much control they have over Cassandra. I've heard other people say >>> DataStax and the ASF aren't getting along. I've heard one person who has >>> pull with a friend in the ASF complained about a feature not getting >>> considered (who also didn't go down the correct path of proposing) kicked >>> and screamed and started the ball rolling for control change." >>> >>> There is an important saying in the ASF: >>> https://community.apache.org/newbiefaq.html >>> >>> - If it didn't happen on a mailing list, it didn't happen. >>> >>> It is natural that communication happens outside of Jira. The rough aim of >>> this mandate is a conversation like that that happens by the water cooler >>> should be summarized and moved into a forum where it can be recorded and >>> discussed. There is a danger in repeating something anecdotal or 'things >>> you have heard'. If that party is being suppressed, that is an issue to >>> deal with. If a party is unwilling to speak for themselves publicly in the >>> ASF public forums that is on them. Retelling what others told us is >>> 'gossip' as you put it. >>> >>> "I think it is unavoidable a single company bootstraps large projects like >>> this into popularity" >>> "I don't think reducing DataStax's role for the sake of diversity is >>> smart." >>> >>> Let me state my opinion as an open source ASF member that was never >>> directly payed to work on an open source project. I have proposed and seen >>> proposed by others ideas to several open source projects inside (ASF and >>> outside) which were rejected. Later (months maybe years later) the exact >>> idea or roughly the same idea is implemented by different person in a >>> slightly different form. There is a lot of grey area there. >>> >>> How does that related to this http://www.datastax.com/2016/ >>> 11/serving-customers-serving-the-community ? >>> >>> Remember the ASF is a volunteer organization. One desired effect of the >>> volunteerism is so that one single large company does not bootstrap or >>> control the project. (When my proposed ideas got knocked down, I had some >>> choices including complain to anyone that will listen, lick my wounds and >>> press on, or become less involved.) >>> >>> Whatever event has happened has happened. Like you, I only know of it >>> second hand so I will not comment. >>> >>> The volunteer committers can decide their own level of involvement. For >>> example, they can "double down" and use their free time to stay >>> involved. They can attempt to convince their organization that pulling them >>> back is the wrong move, or they can fall away. >>> >>> " The ultimate question that's really important is whether DataStax and >>> Jonathan have been steering the project in the right direction" >>> >>> Outside of the politics/litigation it is becoming normal for an ASF project >>> to rotate the PMC chair. It keeps things fresh, and helps avoid issues >>> where some may perceive control by one person/entity. Your question may >>> ultimately highlight an issue as ASF sees it, namely who is "steering" you >>> mention a corporate entity in your question. >> >
