On 09/11/2015 08:58 PM, Reindl Harald wrote:
Am 12.09.2015 um 04:49 schrieb Adam Williamson:
On Sat, 2015-09-12 at 04:46 +0200, Reindl Harald wrote:
Am 11.09.2015 um 23:54 schrieb Orion Poplawski:
I would argue that we need to be packaging much less than we do.
Many
languages have developed packaging infrastructures around
themselves and
perhaps it's time to let those become the primary means of
distributing such
software
no, thanks, one time the mess with CPAN installed packages mixed
with
the OS and clean that up was enough while it's way more maintainable
over dist-upgrades to package the missing perl modules to get net-
dri
running for years now
having parallel worlds of software management ends in a mess on
systems
not re-installed every now and then - i maintain 30 productin
machines
installed 2008 and upgraded with yum - that's possible because one
central package management
perl and python are examples of languages whose packaging mechanisms
have been designed with system-wide installation / distribution
packaging broadly kept in mind. For other languages/ecosystems this is
not the case; they are expressly designed around bundling
and even if it works somehow - have fun to replicate a setup on
different machines - with one central package manager just "rpm -q" is
your friend and you can easily build your own meta-packages doing
nothing else than define Requires and stuck them together
that would not be possible in a clean way having to deal with dozens of
different install tools, some of them downloading things directly from
uptream, frankly you can' even be sure you end in the same versions 2
hours later, with RPM packages and repos nothing easier than setup a
internal cache-repo from /var/cache/yum and have on all other machines
in the network *only* that enabled - i am doing that from the very first
moment of setup production machines, the production servers *never*
touched any Fedora or other external repo over 7 years
Oh I certainly won't argue that it's easier for the end user/admin to
work with one tool. Although we are getting better tools: ansible,
puppet, et. al. offer the ability to install and track packages with
other tools like pip/gem/etc, though I admit to not having tried doing
that specific thing yet.
But if we're in a situation where we are just killing ourselves
shoehorning upstream's mess of bundled requirements into rpms and their
response is just 'well just run "pip install foo" and be done with it',
I think it's time to just let everyone do that. Then maybe we can see
if that is the way to software install nirvana or if admins start
complaining about not being able to maintain their systems in a rational
way. We can then point these latter folks upstream and say this is what
these folks wanted you to do, talk to them about it.
--
Orion Poplawski
Technical Manager 303-415-9701 x222
NWRA/CoRA Division FAX: 303-415-9702
3380 Mitchell Lane or...@cora.nwra.com
Boulder, CO 80301 http://www.cora.nwra.com
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