EV Digest 5264
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Conversion time line?
by Seth Rothenberg <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: EV Conversion HELP for Montana
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Testing Contactors - Results
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: EV Conversion HELP for Montana
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Bizarre Amphour Meter Idea
by "Andre' Blanchard" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Bizarre Amphour Meter Idea
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Testing Contactors - Results
by "ProEV" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Denver EV Council still around?
by Ryan Bohm <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Denver EV Council still around?
by "Dale Curren" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Testing Contactors - Results
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) PM motor
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re:Paralleling EUs
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: EV cheaper than gas per mile
by "Michaela Merz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: EV Conversion HELP for Montana
by Ryan Bohm <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Powerizer NiMH 10 AH D cells
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: EV cheaper than gas per mile
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Conversion time line?
by Mark Farver <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) RE: EV cheaper than gas per mile
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Angle Iron to Chassis
by "Bill Dennis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: EV cheaper than gas per mile
by "Mike Ellis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) GEM Justice
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) RE: Testing Contactors - Results
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) NEDRA Election Underway
by Chip Gribben <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: Conversion time line?
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) RE: NEDRA Election Underway
by "damon henry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) Re: NEDRA Election Underway
by Andrew Letton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
27) Re: EV cheaper than gas per mile
by "Richard Acuti" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
28) RE: Conversion time line?
by "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
29) NEDRA Election Result Dates (correction)
by Chip Gribben <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Does anyone have notes on where the time is spent
in converting a car?
I have heard estimates of 100 to 200 hours, but
I was wondering what percentage of that is
demolition and what percent is construction.
Thanks
Seth
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The Iota Power supplies seem to work well at 120v I use one at 144v but cut
it out during charging. They are relatively inexpensive and can be
purchased on ebay. If your needs are small a simple variac and diode bridge
will work. However if you want quick charging and have a couple of grand to
blow a Rudman charger is a good idea. Also I think hitting a pack with high
current makes the batteries last longer. So spending more on a charger
might be a way of making your batteries last a bit longer. Lawrence Rhodes.
herb wrote:
As near as I can tell the nearest chapter of the EEA is in Washington
State so that is why this email is heading your way.
My name is Herb, I live in Billings Montana and am about half finished
with the conversion of my 1990 For Ranger over to 120 volt DC. be
finished in the late spring of 2006. I am looking for advice on the
purchase of both my battery charger and DC to DC converter. I have spent
a lot of time researching on the internet but would really like to here
from people who are actually using these devices and can give me an
honest opinion. am quite possibly the only person in Montana doing a
conversion at this time so local resources on the subject do not exist.
Most people give me a blank stare when they hear that Im in the middle
of an EV project. Im really hoping to spark some interest in electric
vehicles here in Montana and maybe get an EEA chapter started here in
Billings Montana. Sincerely, Herb Welch
--
Steven S. Lough, Pres.
Seattle EV Association
6021 32nd Ave. N.E.
Seattle, WA 98115-7230
Day: 206 850-8535
Eve: 206 524-1351
e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
web: http://www.seattleeva.org
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
ProEV wrote:
> We set up the software... so that the DC/DC boost charger is turned
> on after the relays close and off before the relays open. We did this
> because we thought it might increase the life of the relays if they
> did not have to break any current.
That's how you should do it. I do the same thing in my Balancer. The
relays will last their mechanical life, which is typically 10 times
longer than its life switching rated load.
> In your experience, to clean the relay's contacts, do we need to open or
> close them under higher loads or will just running current through them
> suffice?
You only run into problems if the relays switch at ZERO voltage and
current -- called a "dry circuit". But your battery is always supplying
voltage, and the output of your DC/DC converter inevitably has a filter
capacitor and some resistance to discharge it when it is off. So, when
your relay closes, a momentary pulse of current will flow to charge that
capacitor. This provides the small voltage and current to keep the
contacts clean.
Note that if your DC/DC has a *big* output capacitor, the current as the
contacts close could be *higher* than the relay's rated load current. If
this is the case, their life could be *shorter* by switching when the
DC/DC is off!
The ideal setup would probably be a blocking diode and small lossy
capacitor, like a 1uF electrolytic. Then you know what the peak current
is that your contacts switch.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Here are some EV parts vendors, in more or less random order :
http://www.kta-ev.com/
http://www.evparts.com
http://www.electroauto.com/
http://www.metricmind.com/
http://www.ev-america.com/
http://www.cloudelectric.com/
Sorry if I omitted any; these are the ones I had in my bookmarks.
Brusa chargers are very high quality but somewhat costly. They are
available through Metric Mind. Solectria chargers are comparable; they are
available through Electro Automotive. Zivan chargers are cheap but more
troublesome. They are available through most dealers above. Chargers such
as PFC (Manzanita) and Russco, also widely available, provide good service
at relatively low prices. However, they are not isolated from the power
line, so they require greater care in use to prevent electric shock. For
safety, you must purchase an external GFCI for the Manzanita chargers. The
Russco chargers have GFCIs built in.
The above dealers also sell DC:DC converters to suit EVs. Sevcon, Brusa,
and Solectria are all good, reliable brands, but there are others.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 11:56 AM 3/19/2006, you wrote:
Mike Chancey wrote:
<< snip >>
> So, a thought comes to mind. Drive a small DC motor from a feed off a
> custom shunt on the main battery feed to the controller. The higher
> the current draw, the faster the motor turns. The motor could either
> drive a clock type mechanism and move hands on a dial, or it could
> drive an odometer type mechanism.
>
> I know it is nuts, but I had to share the idea.
No, it's not nuts at all if you want that sort of display.
I'd use a battery powered clock to provide the motor and gear train.
These things have a single coil that you just pulse with about 1 volt at
0.030ma. Each pulse advances the clock 1 second. These motors will
actually run much faster, up to 20-30 pulses per second (and of course,
as slow as you like).
Use a precision voltage-to-frequency converter chip, like the LM331 or
AD537. It converts the voltage across your shunt to frequency. This
frequency drives the crystal input of the divider chip in the clock
(it's normally a 32 KHz crystal). Pick your V-to-F chip's resistor and
capacitor for the desired countdown rate and you have it!
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
How about if instead of a clock you feed the pulses into a bicycle
computer. The speed display would be the current amperage, most of them
also have average and peak speeds. The ones I have seen have a speed
display up to 99.9 so you would likely want to calibrate it so that 10.0
mph was 100 amps, the odometer display X10 would then be amp hours, I am
not sure what the unit would do with an input of less then 0.1 mph it may
not accumulate on the odometer. Last time I looked the cheap ones were
about $7 so that makes up for the limited resolution on the amperage.
__________
Andre' B. Clear Lake, Wi.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Andre' Blanchard wrote:
> How about if instead of a clock you feed the pulses into a bicycle
> computer?
That's clever. I like it!
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee,
Thanks for the reply.
<> You only run into problems if the relays switch at ZERO voltage and
current -- called a "dry circuit". But your battery is always supplying
voltage,
Does this mean that the basic circuit connecting battery and basically an
LED (one side of the analog opo-isolator) is enough to keep the contacts
clean since it is not a truly "dry circuit"-not zero voltage and the diode
uses milli-amps?
<and the output of your DC/DC converter inevitably has a filter
capacitor and some resistance to discharge it when it is off. So, when
your relay closes, a momentary pulse of current will flow to charge that
capacitor. This provides the small voltage and current to keep the
contacts clean.
I ask since we are using a 1 lead per battery system, we do not have the
dc/dc connected when the battery relays close.
Step 1 Close two relays and read the battery voltage through analog
opt-isolator and then decide whether to turn on the DC/DC charger.
Step 2 Determine polarity of connection to battery (with one lead per
battery system, first battery reads positive, second reads negative, etc.).
Step 3 Close pair of relays that connect chosen battery to correct
polarity on dc/dc charger.
Step 4 Turn on dc/dc charger.
Cliff
www.ProEV.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Dale,
I try the link in your signature (http://www.devc.org/), but get a "Not
Found The requested document was not found on this server.".
-Ryan
** Reply to message from "Garret Maki" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> on Sun, 19 Mar
2006 09:35:27 -0500
this is a contact
Mike Bachand
Denver Electric Vehicle Council (DEVC)
Board Member, Web Administration and Newsletter Editor
Kawasaki Ninja EV
_http://www.devc.org_ (http://www.devc.org/)
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Dale Curren
--
- EV Source <http://www.evsource.com> -
Selling names like Zilla, PFC Chargers, and WarP Motors
E-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Toll-free: 1-877-215-6781
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
** Reply to message from Ryan Bohm <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> on Mon, 20 Mar 2006
09:38:28 -0700
> Dale,
>
> I try the link in your signature (http://www.devc.org/), but get a "Not
> Found The requested document was not found on this server.".
> >[EMAIL PROTECTED]
try the email address.
Dale Curren
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
ProEV wrote:
> Does this mean that the basic circuit connecting battery and
> basically an LED (one side of the analog opo-isolator) is enough
> to keep the contacts clean since it is not a truly "dry circuit"
> -- not zero voltage and the diode uses milli-amps?
How much current does the circuit draw? Depending on the size of the
contact, a circuit is considered "dry" is below about 10ma. If the
current is only 1ma or so, then I'd put a small capacitor across the LED
and resistor to cause a momentary current pulse.
If your relays always switch dry (never arc), then get them with gold
contacts. Gold does not corrode, and so does not suffer from poor
connections in dry circuits. But it has a low melting point; gold
contacts will stick if they arc. You won't find high power relays with
gold contacts; but you can get "gold flashed" contacts even in high
power relays; the thin gold coating allows them to switch dry, but the
bulk of the contact is some other metal to save cost. If you ever do arc
the contacts, there is so little gold that it just burns off rather than
sticks. That contact now behaves the same as if the gold wasn't there.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
http://www.enigmaindustries.com/PMG_132/PMG_132.htm
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Or you can do it the Right way.
Exactly the way Dennis Beurbe is going to do on his Strip/Street truck.
Get a pair of Honda EU 2000s, and then buy the Cable that lets them play
together. It's called a Sync Cable, and you let Honda do the engineering.
Job Done.
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
----- Original Message -----
From: "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Sunday, March 19, 2006 9:23 AM
Subject: RE: Range Extending Calculations
>
> Paralleling generators is not at all simple. You have to set the governor
> gains in either a lead - droop or droop - droop configuration. You also
> have to be able to set the voltage regulators for each generator to
balance
> the power factors. Otherwise, you get a "wattless current" flowing between
> them that will cause the windings to overheat (or the breakers to trip.)
>
> Not at all easy.
>
> As you said, the noise and smoke is awful. There is no point in
> driving an EV if you are going to make all that noise, smoke, and
> pollution. You might as well rent an ICE car for that long trip.
>
> Bill Dube'
>
>
> >Yes it was a experiment, and rather tedious to drive.
> >The Governor on the generator was connected. It tried to hold fixed RPM,
> >and therefore frequency (almost). IIRC the rotor design was tasked with
> >holding constant output voltage.
> >Drive that into a bad boy charger (bridge rectifier and inductor) and you
> >have an overload as soon as the battery voltage drops under load.
> >
> >Add to that the fact that these cheap generators don't handle rated power
> >well, and we had a burned up winding despite the breakers being in the
> >circuit. We had it replaced under warranty and then sold the whole
monster.
> >
> >We never tried it without the governor. I wonder if it would work better?
> >
> >Still the noise and smoke were enough to give up the whole concept.
> >
> >You could parallel a few Honda EU series generators, that might work
> >better. I've paralleled three, two EU1000i and one EU2000i. Usually works
> >fine, but sometimes one of the 1000i's would trip even without a load. I
> >think it was just out of spec with the others since it would trip when
> >paralleled with just one other too.
> >
> >Has anyone tried to fool the EU's into running in series? I think that
> >could be handy for driving a Rudman charger. Maybe some signal
transformer
> >to keep them in synch?
> >
> >--
> >-Otmar-
> >
> >http://www.CafeElectric.com/
> >The Zilla factory has moved to Corvallis Oregon.
> >Now accepting resumes. Please see:
> >http://www.cafeelectric.com/jobs.html
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Cor wrote:
> EV truck fuel costs:
> 400Wh per mile and recharging at 5.8c per kWh plus some
> charging inefficiencies mean that electricity is $0.03/mi
Holy smoke - where do you get the Kw/h for 5.8c? They just raised
us to 17c .. ?
Michaela
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi David and all,
I also carry many of the components for a DC conversion -
http://www.evsource.com (WarP, Zillas, PFC chargers, to name a few).
-Ryan
David Roden wrote:
Here are some EV parts vendors, in more or less random order :
http://www.kta-ev.com/
http://www.evparts.com
http://www.electroauto.com/
http://www.metricmind.com/
http://www.ev-america.com/
http://www.cloudelectric.com/
Sorry if I omitted any; these are the ones I had in my bookmarks.
--
- EV Source <http://www.evsource.com> -
Selling names like Zilla, PFC Chargers, and WarP Motors
E-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Toll-free: 1-877-215-6781
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Powerizer D size NiMH cells 10 AH with solder tabs are available:
$6.25 each:
http://www.zbattery.com/zbattery/nmh9500t.html
$5.56 each in quantities over 100:
http://www.batteryspace.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=325.
Link to specs pdf:
http://www.batteryspace.com/%5Cprod-specs%5CMH-D10000B.pdf
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Yea here in really cheap power Seattle area we
have to pay 8 cents per Kwhr.
5.8 cents is better than most even here.
Madman
----- Original Message -----
From: "Michaela Merz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Monday, March 20, 2006 9:17 AM
Subject: Re: EV cheaper than gas per mile
>
> Cor wrote:
>
> > EV truck fuel costs:
> > 400Wh per mile and recharging at 5.8c per kWh plus some
> > charging inefficiencies mean that electricity is $0.03/mi
>
> Holy smoke - where do you get the Kw/h for 5.8c? They just raised
> us to 17c .. ?
>
> Michaela
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Seth Rothenberg wrote:
Does anyone have notes on where the time is spent
in converting a car?
I have heard estimates of 100 to 200 hours, but
I was wondering what percentage of that is
demolition and what percent is construction.
I would say maybe 2-5% is removing components. Taking a car apart
(especially when a lot of the pieces will not be going back in) is
pretty easy. Plan on a weekend for engine removal, and a few weeknights
of exhaust system, draining fluids and disconnecting hoses. A lot of EV
conversions never get far past the disassembly stage, becuase its easy
and fast, and can be done by nearly anyone. The hard/slow stuff is
building/designing the new parts. You will spend a lot of time
fabricating battery racks and the like. If someone wants to do a
conversion fast I often recommend doing a light pickup with the
batteries inside the bed, since building the racks is much simpler (a
big metal box bolts thru the bed into the frame rails). Then the only
major fabrication task is motor mounts and the adapter, both of which
can be purchased.
Without a doubt the people who have a background in metal fabrication
(or close connections to someone who does) have the easiest time and
produce the nicest conversions. (And yet most conversions are started
by people like myself with an electrical/electronics background and
little actual fabrication skills)
Mark Farver
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Michaela,
Are you on a TOU (Time Of Use) meter? Do you have PG&E?
Check with your energy supplier if you qualify for a different
rate based on the recharge of an EV (clean air vehicle) at your home.
Until a week ago I was also paying 11c per kWh (and more,
as I went over the 100% baseline)
but I noticed on the PG&E site that they do not charge a fee
for TOU meter swapping when you have an EV that is being charged at home.
So I filled out a form, faxed it and 2 days later I had a new meter.
>From midnight to 7 AM the rate is 5.8c in winter and 5c in summer
The flip side is that in summer between 2 PM and 9 PM the peak rate
is 28.4c per kWh for the baseline usage, rising to almost half a dollar
for the usage above the 200% baseline threshold...
I can already see that more than 2/3 of my usage is in the 5.8c period
simply by moving the EV recharge and clothes dryer to that time period.
NOTE that in the weekend the hours of low rate are extended, these are
the weekday hours. Only 5 PM - 9 PM are partial peak hours, the rest
of the time is low rate.
Hope this helps,
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Michaela Merz
Sent: Monday, March 20, 2006 9:18 AM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: EV cheaper than gas per mile
Cor wrote:
> EV truck fuel costs:
> 400Wh per mile and recharging at 5.8c per kWh plus some
> charging inefficiencies mean that electricity is $0.03/mi
Holy smoke - where do you get the Kw/h for 5.8c? They just raised
us to 17c .. ?
Michaela
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'm converting a 1993 Geo Metro, which is a uni-body car. To support the
batteries under the hood, my plan is to run lengths of angle iron across the
engine bay, attaching to the wheel wells on each side. When I talk to a
welder about this today, however, he was hesitant to weld the angle iron to
the car. He said that there might be too much racking, which would cause
the car's sheet metal to tear. He says that I should bolt the angle iron in
place instead.
Does anyone have any thoughts on this? Has anyone welded this way, and if
so, have there been any problems?
Thanks.
Bill Dennis
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Manitoba Hydro:
Energy Charge:
First 175 kW.h @ 5.780¢ /kW.h
Balance of kW.h @ 5.654¢ /kW.h
Note that this is in Canadian money. So the US$ equivalents are:
Energy Charge:
First 175 kW.h @ 4.97¢ /kW.h
Balance of kW.h @ 4.86¢ /kW.h
Sometimes it doesn't suck to live in Winnipeg.
-Mike
On 3/20/06, Michaela Merz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>
> Cor wrote:
>
> > EV truck fuel costs:
> > 400Wh per mile and recharging at 5.8c per kWh plus some
> > charging inefficiencies mean that electricity is $0.03/mi
>
> Holy smoke - where do you get the Kw/h for 5.8c? They just raised
> us to 17c .. ?
>
> Michaela
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
From the NEV list.
Message: 9
Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2006 16:06:12 -0000
From: "Janet" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: GEM Justice
Last night as I was driving home (one lane each direction) the car
behind me decided it couldn't stand being behind me (but 25 mph
residential speed limit) so sped up and passed me, crossing the double
yellow line. Right as she did, I noticed a police car parked on the
other side of the road!
The cop saw what had happened and made a U-turn right behind me. He
activated his lights and sirens and pulled the car over. When I passed
them I made sure to give a "beep! beep!" Ha! It's nice to see the cops
recognizing us (in a good way). I hope he didn't just give her a
warning (`cause I only get tickets!).
--Janet
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee Hart [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Depending on the size of the contact, a circuit is
> considered "dry" is below about 10ma.
Check the datasheet for your particular relays to see if they specify a
minimum current or not. The 40A automotive relays used in some of our
chargers specify a minimum close current of 1A; your 30A relays may be
similar.
If you close the relay dry you will find that the closed resistance is
much higher than spec and varies significantly from one closure to
another. Typically the datasheet will specify a maximum power
dissipation for the contacts, and if you switch them dry and measure the
resistance you can then figure out if the load you plan to run through
them will exceed their power handling capability or not. If you are
running much less current than the relay is rated for, you may be able
to get away with switching them dry. Most likely, you will find that
you must switch them with some small load to ensure they will have a
repeatable, sufficiently low closed resistance.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello everyone,
Elections for NEDRA President and Vice President are underway.
The NEDRA membership nominated Brian Hall and Shawn Lawless to run as
President and "Neon" John De Armond and Don "Father Time" Crabtreerun as Vice President.
Candidate statements are available on the NEDRA Website.
Ballots were sent out by certified mail March 15 to the NEDRA
Membership for the second phase of the election. Those ballots are due
in by midnight April 15, 2006. So drop that in the mail along with your
tax returns.
An anonymous third party will be counting the ballots and they will
announce the election results on April 16, 2006.
We encourage all eligible NEDRA members who received a ballot to vote
in this final phase of the election so that we can move forward and
continue to provide "World Class Electric Drag Racing."
If you have any questions/comments concerning the election contact
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Chip Gribben
NEDRA Webmaster
http://www.nedra.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello Mark,
After you think your conversion is completed, then you may want to add this
or subtract that and may what to convert some more. It's a on going
process.
If you install a traction motor that is a direct replacement for the engine,
which uses the same engine mounts, this only took about a hour to install.
The GE traction motor comes pre-assemble from GE so
it bolts directly to a transmission and bolts to the same engine mounts of a
350 cu.in. engine.
A complete motor controller that is pre-wire with a plug in accelerator
control is about 2 hours. The motor controller bolted directly to the
firewall with standoff supports.
My batteries came pre-assemble in two aluminum battery boxes that had angle
supports that bolted directly to the frame with Power Anderson connectors.
Took all day to install. These boxes were lifted up from the bottom of the
car.
Battery charger was pre-assemble with Power Anderson connectors which are
plug into the connectors. Was bolt down in the trunk of the car. which is
about a hour.
Had only two meters on the dash, a battery amp and volt meter. Another day
to make aluminum dash plates and install the wires through the wire loom or
plastic flexible conduits.
It took about one day to install the Sterwart Warner South Wind Gas heater
for the heating system. Did not like the ideal of gas in a
EV.
It took about two hours to install the DC to DC motor generator which
provided 13.5 to 16 volts DC and was double shaft to power the power
steering and vacuum pump. This whole unit was pre-assemble by HoneyWell
Company.
This was all done by a crew of 4 people at the time. Therefore If done by 1
person, than it would take about 4 times or more as long. If you had to
modified the suspensions, transmissions, and any motor mounting locations,
you may be talking about another 30 days depending on fast you what to work
and the time to order all the
components you need.
This was all done with a new car body that was modified and was deliver with
out any engines. You will have to add time for removing all the items out of
the ICE vehicle. This took me a week in another car and another two weeks to
sand blast and repaint the car.
The number of additions I added since then:
1. Install external blower fan on motor.
2. Install external blower fan on controller.
3. Install explosive proof (all plastic total enclose type) exhaust
fan for battery boxes.
4. Install cooling fans for battery charger compartments.
5. Remove the gas heater which for heating heater core water.
6. Install electric hot water heater for defroster.
7. Install two under cab heaters under the dash.
8. Install two safety contactors that are between the battery and
the controller.
9. Install one DC contactor between the battery charger and the
batteries.
10. Install one AC contactor between the AC input plug and the
battery charger, which drops out when you unplug the AC cord or
if connected, the main controller ignition will not work.
11. Install a on board GFI circuit breakers between the AC input
plug and battery charger.
12. Replace the aluminum battery boxes with epoxy coated fiberglass
type so as to isolated the batteries from the frame.
13. Install the battery charger, contactors, fuses, and terminal
power blocks in a fiberglass enclosure so as to isolated the
AC grounded battery charger from the frame of the car.
14. Install a aluminum frame work, to hold a DC-DC-AC converter-
inverter, power steering, vacuum pump that can either run off
the pilot shaft of the main motor thru a in and out clutch or
by the HoneyWell motor generator that is power from the main
battery pack. This is used to provide some type of
mechanical regen to slow the EV going down steep icy hills.
15. Install a E-meter
16. Install motor amp meter (still have to install a motor volt
meter)
17. Install 12 VDC amp and volt meters for the DC-DC converter.
18. Install 120 VAC amp and volt meters for the DC-AC inverter.
19. Install 240 VAC amp and volt meters for the battery charger.
20. Install 240 VDC amp and volt meters for the battery charger.
21. Replace the on-board SCR battery charger with a PFC type.
22. Replace the SCR motor controller with a Zilla.
23. Install a water cooling system for the Zilla.
24. Build and Install a speed control and RPM indications.
And it go's on and on and on and on................
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark Farver" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Monday, March 20, 2006 10:30 AM
Subject: Re: Conversion time line?
> Seth Rothenberg wrote:
>
> >Does anyone have notes on where the time is spent
> >in converting a car?
> >
> >I have heard estimates of 100 to 200 hours, but
> >I was wondering what percentage of that is
> >demolition and what percent is construction.
> >
> >
> I would say maybe 2-5% is removing components. Taking a car apart
> (especially when a lot of the pieces will not be going back in) is
> pretty easy. Plan on a weekend for engine removal, and a few weeknights
> of exhaust system, draining fluids and disconnecting hoses. A lot of EV
> conversions never get far past the disassembly stage, becuase its easy
> and fast, and can be done by nearly anyone. The hard/slow stuff is
> building/designing the new parts. You will spend a lot of time
> fabricating battery racks and the like. If someone wants to do a
> conversion fast I often recommend doing a light pickup with the
> batteries inside the bed, since building the racks is much simpler (a
> big metal box bolts thru the bed into the frame rails). Then the only
> major fabrication task is motor mounts and the adapter, both of which
> can be purchased.
>
> Without a doubt the people who have a background in metal fabrication
> (or close connections to someone who does) have the easiest time and
> produce the nicest conversions. (And yet most conversions are started
> by people like myself with an electrical/electronics background and
> little actual fabrication skills)
>
> Mark Farver
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
An anonymous third party will be counting the ballots and they will
announce the election results on April 16, 2006.
I know I shouldn't respond to this, as we all have gotten way more Nedra
**** then we deserve, but pretend like this isn't Nedra for a minute and
allow me my bit of compulsive humor in regards to the above statement.
So on April 16 when I announce the results of the election how will anyone
know whether I am the anonymous 3d party or not????
damon
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I just have to point out that if ballots get dropped in the mail April
15th with tax returns, they won't be counted by April 16th!
I assume that unlike tax returns, the ballots must be _received_ by
April 15th, not just postmarked.
cheers,
Andrew (NEDRA charter member...whose ballot is already in the mail.)
--------------------------------------------------
Chip Gribben wrote:
Hello everyone,
Elections for NEDRA President and Vice President are underway.
The NEDRA membership nominated Brian Hall and Shawn Lawless to run as
President and "Neon" John De Armond and Don "Father Time" Crabtreerun
as Vice President.
Candidate statements are available on the NEDRA Website.
Ballots were sent out by certified mail March 15 to the NEDRA
Membership for the second phase of the election. Those ballots are due
in by midnight April 15, 2006. So drop that in the mail along with
your tax returns.
An anonymous third party will be counting the ballots and they will
announce the election results on April 16, 2006.
We encourage all eligible NEDRA members who received a ballot to vote
in this final phase of the election so that we can move forward and
continue to provide "World Class Electric Drag Racing."
If you have any questions/comments concerning the election contact
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Chip Gribben
NEDRA Webmaster
http://www.nedra.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
You are correct, but something I'd like to point out is that the energy
industry is due to be de-regulated very soon.
I learned this when I had the Baltimore Gas & Electric rep over to my house
so I could buy new energy-efficient windows. He stated the new, triple-pane,
argon-injected windows would cut my bill by 50%. Then he mumbled something
about the de-regulation. I pinned him down on it and he confessed that
energy de-regulation is coming (didn't know exactly when) and that
electricity prices would be going up, but that residents would have a
greater choice of suppliers. Whoopie! That's like having a choice between
Exxon-Mobile and Shell, or BP. Who cares? It's all over-priced.
Soooooooo....what this means is, the cost of our "fuel" will be going up,
but hey, so too will the price of gasoline as you pointed out, so we will
always be ahead, however marginally and we will always be cleaner. Heck,
even BMW's new ICE hydrogen engine due out in 2008 will require oil changes
and coolant and we still won't.
Of course I'm just dying to slap a grid-tie PV system on my roof so that
I'll have the same price for vehicle energy no matter what the industry does
but I'm agonizing over whether or not I'll generate enough on my little
townhouse roof and whether or not I should just save my cash until/if I move
back to Florida where the sun is and I can afford a home with a decent size
roof.
Right now I'm cutting my teeth on a 25 year old Comuta-Van. Of course it
looks like a clown-car and is everything people hate about EV's. I hope to
begin my Karmann Ghia conversion next year and make a real car.
Cheers,
Rich A.
Maryland
Message-ID:
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
From: Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: EV cheaper than gas per mile
Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2006 22:06:49 -0800
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Today I made an interesting calculation, to see how my EV
does in cost per mile, in comparison to a gas car.
The numbers may be different for each of you and the
values are far from final, as I am still breaking in my
batteries, so only time will tell if I am close to reality.
Still my educated guesses for my US Electricar S-10 are:
(I expect to drive 8,000 miles per year)
(I do not take depreciation into account - should cancel out
as they should be equal between the two vehicles.
Also the tires and other costs which are equal between the
two types, I have omitted.)
EV truck 'investments':
$2200 for a new AGM pack, expecting it to last 3 years or
24,000 miles (500 cycles). This is $733/year or $0.09/mi
$100 reserved per year for occasional service, new steering
pump or water pump, not much to tune up. This adds $0.01/mi
EV truck fuel costs:
400Wh per mile and recharging at 5.8c per kWh plus some
charging inefficiencies mean that electricity is $0.03/mi
EV truck total per mile:
$0.13/mi
Gas truck 'investments':
Oil and filter changes, tune-up engine, new pumps, starter,
alternator, belts, hoses, exhaust, smog check and repairs,
12V battery, O2 sensor, timing chain/belt, gaskets, ....
I estimate this on an average of $500 per year, though a
single repair can exceed this in labor cost. $0.06/mi
(Note the repairs add up to almost a battery pack in 3 years)
Gas truck fuel costs:
20 MPG is a very conservative estimate, most trucks will be
closer to 15 MPG, but let's say I drive conservatively.
Fuel cost: $2.60 per gal and rising, this is $0.13/mi
(NOTE: this is the TOTAL of the EV!)
Gas truck total per mile:
$0.19/mi
So this means that I am saving money AND I am good for the
environment, only because the gas prices have taken such a
hike! Note that with gas prices below $1.50/gal, the EV is
not cheaper than the gas truck, although the environment
does not agree to that way of thinking.
Note that cars which get more than 40 MPG are hard to beat
with an EV, even though the electricity is still less per
mile, the cost of a new pack is offsetting the prices.
BTW I noticed an interesting pattern in the US gas prices.
When you go to the website that plots gas prices of different
areas and you select the 3-year period of either San Jose or US
http://www.sanjosegasprices.com/retail_price_chart.aspx
then you see that every Newyear the prices hit a bottom.
Every year this bottom is at least 30 cents higher.
Expectations: 2006 will continue with prices above $2.40
2007 will start with a bottom price of $2.40, then climb to
the $2.70 - $3 region
2008 will start with a bottom at $2.70, then the prices
will climb above $3 and never return.
My EV will stay cost effective and in the near future
even a Prius cannot beat my cost per mile (unless the
electricity also takes a hike up)....
Just my $0.02 per kilometer.
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
_________________________________________________________________
Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE!
http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Seth, I did not actually record numbers, but for the New Beetle project,
it took approx 30-40hrs to remove the ice, gas tank, exhaust, interior (for
access to battery boxes), dash (for heater core), etc. It took approx
160-200 hrs to figure out the new electrical system, interfaces, motor
mounts, brakes, power steering, etc.
Don
Don Cameron, Victoria, BC, Canada
see the New Beetle EV project www.cameronsoftware.com/ev
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Seth Rothenberg
Sent: March 20, 2006 7:29 AM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Conversion time line?
Does anyone have notes on where the time is spent in converting a car?
I have heard estimates of 100 to 200 hours, but I was wondering what
percentage of that is demolition and what percent is construction.
Thanks
Seth
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
A clarification to my last message. We will actually announce the
results of the NEDRA election on or about April 19.
The ballots must be postmarked by midnight April 15 (tax time). So
there will be a window of time before they reach the election official
who will be counting them so my previous announcement announcing a
winner April 16 was a bit too optimistic.
So we will announce the results sometime around April 19, maybe later.
To make the process run efficiently please mail in your ballots at your
earliest convenience.
Thanks,
Chip Gribben
NEDRA Webmaster
http://www.nedra.com
--- End Message ---
