EV Digest 5353
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Monster Garage
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Monster Garage
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Monster Garage
by paul wiley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Orb Carnage....
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: 8" ADC
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Monster Garage
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
7) Re: AC vs DC, Skipping down the Road..
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Monster Garage
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Nicads tools and stuff...
by "Philippe Borges" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) RE: Orb Carnage....
by "Grigg. John" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: TS Internal Resistance Testing
by "Philippe Borges" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Multi charger.
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Monster Garage
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) RE: Fry's AV addition
by "Grigg. John" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Hybrid Technologies LiX-75, Lithium based $125,000 supercar, 200mph
by "ProEV" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Monster Garage
by DM3 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: S-10 oem on eBay
by Jim Coate <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Corporate and retail charging installations.Comments
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Watching Rich and the crew made me tired making all these battery
connections. This program did not come on until 10 PM and when I went to
bed, I was dreaming all night on making these battery connections.
The concept of installing plug in batteries is a good ideal, makes it easy
to change out. This method is use by one of the German companies which was
either Accumulatorenfabriken Wilhelm Hagen or Accomulatorenwerk Hoppechke.
They use 2 volt gel cells that plug into a large rack panel drawers. These
drawers plug into a buss bar system that ran down the center of the
compartment of a bus, (like the luggage compartments in a Grayhound bus.
These drawers slide on rails which than plug and lock into the buss bar.
The main buss bar ran to the back of the bus that connected directly to a
controller. The only cables used was from the controller to the motors.
The control wires that ran up front ran on a wireway that is part of the
main buss system.
If I remember right, when a fault of any cell, the cell either auto
disconnects or the drawer disconnects, which allows the rest of the
batteries to be in the circuit.
I would see this type of EV power system in our future.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Husted" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, April 11, 2006 9:54 AM
Subject: Re: Monster Garage
> Hey Shawn
>
> I thought I read that on the list here about the fires and had EVen
> instructed the wife to cover my eyes when it happened 8^ 0 I thought
> Jessie looked happy with himself (destroying a thousand man hours in
> seconds) Anyway take another look and you'll see the flashes which is
> what prabably ignited the fires. I can't help but hide the fact I'd love
> to have a peek into those motors for some data collection and a little
> "Hall of Flame" pics, lmao!!
> I enjoyed the part about "MOM" being a NEDRA holder but you're not. I
> also thought it pretty cool they gave you and Rich a little peek at your
> backgrounds.
>
> As to putting together an amp sucking whore of a motor of 500 HP I'd say
> I'd be into the challenge. Being we've never met I noticed that you're a
> big guy (not the jockey type) so maybe we should shoot for 550 HP, LMAO!!!
> When you get a minute give me a call so we can discuss what your looking
> for. Father Time will be coming down tomorrow for a couple of days of
> shop playing (along with what sounds like a graveyard of killed motors),
> and I believe Wayland might be heading over also on Wednesday so I'll
> discuss this with them to see what's obtainable.
> Anyway give me a ring or contact me off list and I'll give you a jingle
> and we'll see what can be done.
> Cya
> Jim Husted
> Hi-Torque Electric
> 541-548-6140
>
>
>
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Thanks Jim,
>
> One of the things not shown was the fire in the front motor on the
> previous run.
> Rich can correct me if I'm wrong but I think there were actually 5 or 6
> runs not 3.
> There were no breaks between runs save to patch together whatever
> burned up in the previous run and send the car back out.
> On about the 5th run Jesse came back with a fire coming out of the
> front motor blower cover inlet. It looked like the insulation was just
> happily burning away so we stuck the fire extinguisher in the hole and
> let it rip. The fire went out, we slammed the hood, and Jesse went on
> his 14.5 run. What you saw were flames coming from the motor which lit
> right up again on the final run.
> You could have cooked hotdogs over the GE's and they kept on cranking
> out the power. Truly awesome components designed for abuse let this car
> get to the finish line in (almost) one pc.
>
> Shawn
>
> PS: Can you put together a true 500 peak hp Series DC motor for me and
> how long would it take to get my hands on it?
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jim Husted
> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> Sent: Tue, 11 Apr 2006 06:19:49 -0700 (PDT)
> Subject: Re: Monster Garage
>
> Hey All
>
> First off kudos to Rich and Shawn for not killing themselves and
> certain
> people running the show 8^ P
> Did anyone else catch the couple of flash-overs on that last run?
> Being that
> I failed to tape it I can't review it but the motors look like the
> arced about a
> 1/4 way into the run and can be seen through the front grill. Can
> someone
> confirm?
> Anyways had a blast here watching it with the wife and I got a bunch
> of peeps
> tuned in to watch to, just no party 8^ (
> Cya
> Jim Husted
> Hi-Torque Electric
>
>
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Waiting for someone to put the torrent up.
It's episode 77, but as the 5th episode of the 5th season it will
probably be listed as S05E05.
Danny
bruce parmenter wrote:
[My slant on the episode:]
Ignoring all the video hoopla, and some of the silly things they
had the crew do to put some flash on the screen, the stage was set
to not show an EV at its best. But I assume that was expected from
the start. I suppose any network visibility the EV community can
get it better than none. I did enjoy watching, but wanted more
from it.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>
>Ignoring all the video hoopla, and some of the silly things they
>had the crew do to put some flash on the screen, the stage was set
>to not show an EV at its best. But I assume that was expected from
>the start. I suppose any network visibility the EV community can
>get it better than none. I did enjoy watching, but wanted more
>from it.
>
It is Monster Garage, not lets build the average everyday EV and promote the
use of them. I dont think i would have watched it should they (read the tool
sponsor) have not elected to use tool batteries. I would have liked a converted
chopper better.
:)
Paul
---------------------------------
Love cheap thrills? Enjoy PC-to-Phone calls to 30+ countries for just 2¢/min
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I am kind known for my heavy foot while driving Goldie.
Tire smoke in part of my Aura...
Man there are some good shot of Goldie being very bad on the MG Show... I
need to yard the dead lead out of her and get some fresh Smoke....
Ya got 'em Smoke 'em...
tires that is....
Madman
----- Original Message -----
From: "Doug Weathers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Saturday, April 08, 2006 12:11 AM
Subject: Re: Orb Carnage....
>
> On Apr 7, 2006, at 10:47 PM, Rich Rudman wrote:
>
> > When the battery opened the entire string voltage...Sans the one that
> > was
> > being opened gets impressed acros the one open battery. And that had a
> > Mk2B
> > reg on it.
>
> OK, I get it. The series string of batteries was interrupted by an
> interconnect in one battery opening up. However, there was a reg
> connected across that battery, so the pack voltage, denied the
> opportunity to flow through the battery, tried to go through the
> regulator instead.
>
> The lesson is to pay attention to the low battery light or risk losing
> the regulator. Especially if you're racing.
>
> Thanks!
>
> --
> Doug Weathers
> Bend, OR, USA
> <http://learn-something.blogsite.org/>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
NONE!
The Curtis controllers can't use more than 144 volts DC and the implied
practical motor voltage limit is 170 DC on the motor bolts.
So....don't worry about it...you can't hurt a 8 incher with volts or amps
with a Curtis. You can over spin them though.....
Madman
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rush" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Monday, April 10, 2006 2:40 PM
Subject: 8" ADC
> What is the max V that a 8" ADC motor should see, using a Curtis 1231C
controller?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Rush
> Tucson AZ
> www.ironandwood.org
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I must say that the reason we didn't win on the track was lack of
execution on our behalf.
We certainly had the tools for a very low 13 second car. Our setup was
wrong, the tire pressure too high, the breaker box too small, The
shifter incorrectly adjusted (It popped out on one run), etc..., etc...
These were all our decisions. While it is true we were shorted on work
time we SHOULD have still left the hemi in the dust. We were not told
to lose at any time. Nobody was more disappointed then I that we
didn't win but such is drag racing. We live to fight another day.
Thanks for the good word on our behalf.
Shawn
-----Original Message-----
From: Michaela Merz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Sent: Tue, 11 Apr 2006 11:00:03 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Monster Garage
I don't know if we are talking about the same show here. The one I saw
was
biased towards ICE dragsters, told the viewers how dangerous electric
cars
are, spent $80,000 in 'freebies' and still couldn't win on the track.
While most of you are specialized in some sort of engineering, I am a PR
and marketing person by trade. And from an 'ev' public relations
perspective, the show wasn't good at all. I don't blame Rich or Shawn
(they tried their best) but it seems to me they have been railroaded.
I did a quick (not representative) panel among friends I asked to watch
the show (about 40) that are not involved with (but are interested in)
electric vehicles. Unfortunately, approx. 70% came back with a
definitely
more negative opinion about EVs.
If interested, I can post my list of questions about EVs and the answers
before and after the show.
It was nice though, to have a face for some of the people that have
contributed so much for the EV community.
Thanks Rich and Shawn.
Michaela
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I had a DC motor fail in my in my Fiero...
You skip down the road it's kinda fun.
Madman.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Man, one thought just came to mind... lost the chance to have a April
1st build show for a water-powered car.
Danny
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I must say that the reason we didn't win on the track was lack of
execution on our behalf.
We certainly had the tools for a very low 13 second car. Our setup
was wrong, the tire pressure too high, the breaker box too small, The
shifter incorrectly adjusted (It popped out on one run), etc...,
etc... These were all our decisions. While it is true we were shorted
on work time we SHOULD have still left the hemi in the dust. We were
not told to lose at any time. Nobody was more disappointed then I
that we didn't win but such is drag racing. We live to fight another
day. Thanks for the good word on our behalf.
Shawn
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Nicad batteries are like lithium ones they are Endothermic at charge they
cool down on charge and start to heat only when full state is here or
passed.
This reaction is not true anymore when the batteries start a charge already
being hot, making them being hoter and hoter, for this reason it's advised
to never charge hot nicad battery as they will not take 100% charge
perfectly and degrade fast.
They heat up when discharging, empty and big current is the worst situation
for them.
cordialement,
Philippe
Et si le pot d'échappement sortait au centre du volant ?
quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
Forum de discussion sur les véhicules électriques
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/index.php
----- Original Message -----
From: "Evan Tuer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, April 11, 2006 6:07 PM
Subject: Re: Nicads tools and stuff...
> On 4/11/06, Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Richard Acuti wrote:
> > > 1. What is considered "hot" weather? I live in Maryland. We have long
> > > stretches of cool weather but the summer has been known to get
> > > close to 100 F. I live in a townhouse so my EV is stored outside
> > > at night but I park it in a parking garage during the day.
> >
> > 100 deg.F by itself is no problem. I wouldn't start worrying until you
> > see battery temperatures over 120 deg.F. However, nicads get hot during
> > charging; your main problem will be that charging in hot weather may
> > heat them up beyond 120 deg.F. This can require fans or other means of
> > cooling. Some commercial nicads are liquid cooled to deal with this
> > issue.
>
> Saft STM5 Nicads (liquid cooled), like the ones in my van, advise
> against charged if they are above 35 degrees C. 100'F is 38'C, and
> remember that the batteries heat up while driving as well as charging.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hey Rich, Do you have any pictures of this Orb/Reg Carnage. I would
love to see it...
John Grigg
>From Rich:
-I am kind known for my heavy foot while driving Goldie.
-Tire smoke in part of my Aura...
-Man there are some good shot of Goldie being very bad on the MG Show...
I need to yard the dead lead out of her and get some fresh Smoke....
-Ya got 'em Smoke 'em...
-tires that is....
-Madman
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
No problem if you toast French baguette at the same time ;^)
cordialement,
Philippe
Et si le pot d'échappement sortait au centre du volant ?
quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
Forum de discussion sur les véhicules électriques
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/index.php
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bill Dennis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, April 11, 2006 7:27 PM
Subject: RE: TS Internal Resistance Testing
> My kitchen toaster is 1200W, which would make a nice 10A current. Anyone
> know if it would be okay to hook a toaster to my pack for a few seconds?
> Seems like the elements are just resistors.
>
> Bill Dennis
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Victor Tikhonov
> Sent: Monday, April 10, 2006 2:05 AM
> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> Subject: Re: TS Internal Resistance Testing
>
> Bill, you don't use OCV for this.
>
> R_int = delta_V/delta_I
>
> I suppose you're interested to know discharge R_int (see below).
>
> Load the cell with the current close to one it will mostly be
> used at, say 40A and at the temp you'll be using it, and note the
> voltage V1. It will keep dropping, but that's OK.
> Increase the load to 50A (by connecting extra
> something in parallel to the main load) and immediately check the
> voltage again - V2. Remove extra load and check it third time - V3.
> Try to do all 3 measurements quickly, say within 2 sec each.
> Average voltage 1 and 3, this will be your voltage for 40A load,
> call it V12. R_int is (V12-V2)/10A. In general case it is divided
> by the currents delta, in this case 50A-40A=10A.
>
> Hypothetical example:
>
> 40A load = 3.35V
> 50A load = 3.14V
> back to 40A load = 3.33V now (because the cell has depleted a bit).
>
> Average voltage for 40A is 3.34V.
>
> R_int = (3.34V-3.14V)/10A = 0.2V/10A=0.02 Ohm.
>
> 1. Result is very dependent on SOC. As you discharge,
> R_int for discharge increase as well as rate of it's increase.
> 2. Charge R_int is different from discharge R_int at the
> same SOC. Charge R_int would be if you charge cell with 40A,
> measure voltage, increase charging current to 50A, measure
> voltage, drop charging current back to 40A and measure again.
> 3. R_int is very temp dependent, the lower temp the more R_int,
> and below 0'C it is sharply increased.
> 4. R_int is not linear - at light loads it will be different
> vs. heavy loads. How different - interestingly depends on duration
> of testing - for light loads R_int will appear lower, but for heavy
> ones it is higher in the beginning but only if you won't allow
> measurement to raise the cell temp so that this heating effect,
> lowering R_int outweigh increased R_int because the load itself is
> heavy. Outcome of such test may get confusing, so just measure it
> quickly at one point typical for your driving - that's what is
> relevant.
>
> Hope this helps.
>
> Victor
>
> Bill Dennis wrote:
> > How do I test for the internal resistance of a ThunderSky cell? My
first
> > attempt was to hook three cells in series, then connect them to the
motor.
> > The OCV was 12V, and about 35A was being drawn when the circuit was
> > connected. I thought I would compare the voltage at 35A to the open
> circuit
> > voltage. But the voltage never stayed the same. It just kept dropping
> all
> > the time (about 1/100 volt every 10 seconds).
> >
> > Do I need to test with a lower current, or is there some other method
for
> > testing the resistance?
> >
> > Thanks.
> >
> > Bill Dennis
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I do not know but it was like 5000 miles and more burnout events than I can
remember.
Clearly I was NOT doing range runs and and being careful.
So.. I bet I could get about 5x the range per pack... If I actually tried
to.
Madman
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Phillips" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Saturday, April 08, 2006 8:03 AM
Subject: Re: Multi charger.
> Rich,
>
> It sounds like the Yt's were used in a severe duty situation. How many
> miles did the Yt's travel in that 6 years?
>
> Mike
>
>
> --- Rich Rudman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > Lore and fact....
> >
> > I use 14.80 on all my AGMs. It is infact derived from the exact
> > requirements
> > for Optima Yellow tops.
> >
> > I have found that it works as planed and studied.
> >
> > Not Lore But Fact.
> >
> > The Rudman Regs start blinking at 14.80 and hold the battery there
> > for many
> > amphours. They lock on solid when the volts are about 1 volt over the
> > threshold. The Reg with the Regbuss installed back to the charger
> > also pulls
> > the charger's current back every time they fire. So in effect if a
> > Reg can't
> > keep the battery at 14.80, then it tells the charger to reduces
> > current so
> > the regs Are not forced into a Constant on condition. If any Reg over
> > heats
> > the Hot Reg line goes %100 active and the charger shuts down in about
> > 2. to
> > 5 seconds. Once a reg Cools and drops the hot reg signal, the charger
> > resumes it's charge with the regs pulling it back in a almost linear
> > fashion.
> >
> > So.... did I make it clear enough??? I use 14.8.
> >
> > You can adjust the Regs from about 14.0 to 16.2 volts as you wish.
> > You can program the Mk3 Reg from 0 to 25 volts... and they will try
> > to
> > attian your setting.
> >
> > They leave here set to 14.80 volts in a 60 Deg F shop.
> >
> > At this time I really don't care what the battery PhD say... I have
> > enough
> > time doing what I am good at to get the results that I need.
> > 6 years on a Set of Yts and about 50 drag racing passes a year.. and
> > I still
> > had 10 miles range when I updated to Orbitals. That's pretty good
> > life.
> >
> > Rich Rudman
> > Manzanita Micro
> >
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Mike Phillips" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
> > Sent: Friday, April 07, 2006 12:50 PM
> > Subject: Re: Multi charger.
> >
> >
> > > Is 14.8v tuned for full on or for just starting to blink?
> > >
> > > My BS detector is plugged up, so it's hard to distinguish between
> > lore
> > > and fact right now ;)
> > >
> > > Mike
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --- Rich Rudman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > >
> > > > Clampers is a term that only you use.
> > > >
> > > > I use 14.80 volts for AGMs. I tune them for 14.8? volts
> > > >
> > > > Some of us just know....
> > > >
> > > > Most AGMs, have a peak cyclic charge voltage speced on the
> > Sticker...
> > > >
> > > > It's a matter of reading the instruction that come on the
> > > > battereis....
> > > >
> > > > And for some of us we have 1.5 decades of abusing AGM lead acid
> > > > batteries...
> > > > The BS detector and years of watching them charge...tells us what
> > we
> > > > need to
> > > > know.
> > > >
> > > > Rich Rudman
> > > > Manzanita Micro
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: "Mike Phillips" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > > To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
> > > > Sent: Friday, April 07, 2006 10:50 AM
> > > > Subject: Re: Multi charger.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > And a fine invention it is!
> > > > >
> > > > > Tell me why they are not clampers?
> > > > >
> > > > > They really work that well eh? Cool. That assumes that the
> > voltage
> > > > they
> > > > > are set at is correct, right?
> > > > >
> > > > > So what is a correct voltage for AGM for instance? How do you
> > go
> > > > about
> > > > > finding out the correct voltage? Voltage? Boiling point?
> > > > >
> > > > > Thanks,
> > > > >
> > > > > Mike
> > > > >
> > > > > --- Rich Rudman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > They are called Regs...not clampers.
> > > > > > Yes they equalize.. and very well I might add. That's why I
> > > > invented
> > > > > > them.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I find you more than double the life span with Regs. Maybe
> > even
> > > > by a
> > > > > > factor
> > > > > > of 5.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Rich Rudman
> > > > > > Manzanita Micro
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > > From: "Mike Phillips" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > > > > To: "Rich Rudman" <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
> > > > > > Sent: Friday, April 07, 2006 10:05 AM
> > > > > > Subject: Re: Multi charger.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Rich,
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Do clampers qualify as equalization? I know that sounds
> > > > obvious,
> > > > > > but I
> > > > > > > still wonder if making the voltage the same on each AGM is
> > > > enough
> > > > > > make
> > > > > > > them last longer.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Mike
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], "Rich Rudman"
> > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > The thread the keeps going here is ... Brutal series
> > charger
> > > > and
> > > > > > > small low
> > > > > > > > power modular chargers.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I see the merit there since the little chargers act like
> > > > Additive
> > > > > > > Regs, and
> > > > > > > > of course have thier own voltage regulation and float
> > > > settings.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > What I am picking on is using the small chargers or low
> > > > quality
> > > > > > 20 amp
> > > > > > > > modular chargers. These seam to have some serious trouble
> > > > with
> > > > > > > reliability.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Any path will get the job done.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > On AGMs you have to have more than just a high power
> > series
> > > > > > > charger.. you
> > > > > > > > have to get the equalization done some how or loose the
> > pack
> > > > in a
> > > > > > hurry.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > When you can't get a battery to equalize... you other
> > issues
> > > > to
> > > > > > worry
> > > > > > > > about....
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Rich Rudman
> > > > > > > > Manzanita Micro
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > > > > From: "David (Battery Boy) Hawkins" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > > > > > > To: "EV Discussion List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > > > > > > Sent: Thursday, April 06, 2006 2:21 PM
> > > > > > > > Subject: Re: Multi charger.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Rich and All,
> > > > > > > > > Although I agree that people like Bill Dube' had
> > trouble
> > > > with
> > > > > > modular
> > > > > > > > > charging in the past, due to problems with the chargers
> > > > that
> > > > > > John
> > > > > > > Bryan
> > > > > > > > > mentioned, I will say again that my AGM's have been
> > very
> > > > happy
> > > > > > with 16
> > > > > > > > > individual five amp Soneil (1212SR) chargers (and the
> > > > > > > FrankenLesters for
> > > > > > > > 30
> > > > > > > > > amp bulk charging). For poor folks like me, modular
> > > > charging is
> > > > > > > usually
> > > > > > > > our
> > > > > > > > > only option at the moment, and John Bryan was a major
> > > > > > inspiration
> > > > > > > to my
> > > > > > > > > decision to go that route!
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > 50,000 plus eelectric miles on the buggies, and a
> > counting,
> > > > > > > > > Dave (B.B.) Hawkins
> > > > > > > > > Member of the Denver Electric Vehicle Council:
> > > > > > > > > http://www.devc.org/
> > > > > > > > > Card carrying member and former racer with The National
> > > > > > Electric Drag
> > > > > > > > > Racing Association:
> > > > > > > > > http://www.nedra.com/
> > > > > > > > > Lyons, CO
> > > > > > > > > 1979 Mazda RX-7 EV (192V of Orbs for the teenagers)
> > > > > > > > > 1989 GM (General Murderers of the EV-1!) S10 (144V of
> > > > floodies,
> > > > > > for Pa
> > > > > > > > only!)
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >From: "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > > > > > > > >Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2006 10:44:04 -0700
> > > > > > > > > <snippage>
> > > > > > > > > >I still think the Modular chargers have a weak point
> > and
> > > > that
> > > > > > is the
> > > > > > > > Failure
> > > > > > > > > >rate gets multiplied by the number of units running.
> > > > > > > > > >We tried this on this list.. and had some pretty
> > serious
> > > > > > failures...
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >Making tons of little chargers... has it's merits, but
> > I
> > > > don't
> > > > > > > think it
> > > > > > > > will
> > > > > > > > > >survive the rigors of a on road EV for very long.
> > > > > > > > > <snippage>
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Here's to the crazy ones.
> > > > > The misfits.
> > > > > The rebels.
> > > > > The troublemakers.
> > > > > The round pegs in the square holes.
> > > > > The ones who see things differently
> > > > > The ones that change the world!!
> > > > >
> > > > > www.RotorDesign.com
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Here's to the crazy ones.
> > > The misfits.
> > > The rebels.
> > > The troublemakers.
> > > The round pegs in the square holes.
> > > The ones who see things differently
> > > The ones that change the world!!
> > >
> > > www.RotorDesign.com
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
> Here's to the crazy ones.
> The misfits.
> The rebels.
> The troublemakers.
> The round pegs in the square holes.
> The ones who see things differently
> The ones that change the world!!
>
> www.RotorDesign.com
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I am glad that shows through.
It was the hardest thing to deal with... The build was easy the MG crew and
camera tormenters were what makes folks crazy.
Madman
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Phillips" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Monday, April 10, 2006 9:40 PM
Subject: Re: Monster Garage
> That was very cool. As a bonus a favorite local Mopar Master Ron
> Jenkins brought a Hemi for some TSB's. Not to mention Tom Gage and the
> Tzero were showcased. Those guys rock.
>
> We got to get Shaun some EV wrenching lessons ;)
>
> Rich, you were tolerant of all the crap for sure.
>
> Mike
>
>
>
>
>
> --- Ricky Suiter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > Well, just got done watching it, and it was awsome! Poor Rich got
> > picked on by Jesse a lot though. Getting all the work done that they
> > did in a week is deffinitely impressive, of course a lot of it got
> > done magically like the dual coupled motors just appearing.
> >
> > My single favorite part was when Shaun Lawless was tightening a
> > cable to a buss bar on their battery racks with the batteries in the
> > box. He shorted two with a wrench creating a nice big spark at which
> > point he just goes back to tightening it some more, creates an even
> > larger spark, throws the wrench on the floor and yells that he needs
> > a new wrench!
> >
> > There was also a lot of technical stuff that was left on the
> > cutting room floor. You don't get to see really any of the wireing of
> > the car happen, you barely see Rich put the controllers in the car. I
> > suppose this stuff isn't a big deal to the average viewer.
> >
> > Rich and Shaun, I give you guys (and the others on the show of
> > course) credit for getting that build done on time. Plus it was
> > pretty cool they had the Tzero on there for a few minutes and let
> > Rich drive it.
> >
> > I still gotta go check my other computer, which has my tv tuner
> > card, but I should have it recorded.
> >
> >
> > Later,
> > Ricky
> > 02 Insight
> > 92 Saturn SC2 EV 144 Volt
> > Glendale, AZ USA
> >
> > ---------------------------------
> > New Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Call regular phones from your PC and
> > save big.
> >
> >
>
>
> Here's to the crazy ones.
> The misfits.
> The rebels.
> The troublemakers.
> The round pegs in the square holes.
> The ones who see things differently
> The ones that change the world!!
>
> www.RotorDesign.com
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I just bought one, new, $380. It's going to look really nice in my
Garage... :-)
Yes, It has full GFCI...
http://www.avconev.com/
John Grigg
>Granted, but the normal outlet would be the cheapest way to do it hands
down. I think a new Avcon unit is over $1,000, but if the EAA has a
stash of them you could possibly do it cheaper.
> In my experience too, and I'm running a conversion here, is the
Avcon's eventually require service. Here in Arizona we have some
charging infrastructure left from the late 90's and they put Avcon's in
because the power companies had Rangers. I don't know if it's from lack
of use or what, but there are a couple of them I can't get to work no
matter what, and the power company shows little to no interest in fixing
them even though they are still there. The outlet wouldn't have these
issues.
Just trying to keep things simple.
Nick Austin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
On Mon, Apr 10, 2006 at 04:55:23PM -0700, Ricky Suiter wrote:
> Or how about this, foreget the Avcon all together, and don't remove
the SPI.
> Just add a 14-50 outlet to the circuit that one of the paddle chargers
is on.
So, isn't it true that the Avcon heads have GFCI, auto resetting over
current protection, and pull away protection?
Seems like you want one of these if you can get it, right?
> and that way anyone could charge there.
If you need a simple outlet, you could just use an Avcon converter box.
> If someone had say a Ranger EV they
> could have their own portable Avcon box and use it, you could plug
> your force in
I have one of the old NJ transit forces. They have only Avcon input. :(
> and the Rav4's could still use the paddle chargers. Just don't try and
> charge 3 at a time.
Is there an availability problem with the SPI chargers at Fry's today?
Will there be if one is removed?
Thanks!
---------------------------------
Talk is cheap. Use Yahoo! Messenger to make PC-to-Phone calls. Great
rates starting at 1¢/min.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Lawrence,
You saw the R-Car? Could you tell us a bit about it? Did you see the
batteries? Any BMS? Was it running? What charger, etc.?
Thanks
Cliff
www.ProEV.com
I checked out their R-Car. It has a Curtis controller. They say a 168v
system. Yes maybe the charging voltage. It's just a 144vdc Curtis based
system. Shows what can be done if you have enough battery power. LR.....
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Rich and Shawn,
It looks like you did your best considering some attitudes, opinions and
decisions made ahead of time. I think the show was good for gear heads to
see that you can make an E-car that can turn some heads.
The unfortunate thing was that the Duuude (Mr Lion) had to mention how
"we" wouldn't see a Lion EV pack in "our lifetime" (thats a long time if
your 20), you can see the extent of his visoin. I think he has been
around the lumber department at home depot a little too long. Supporting
buss bars with wood is like throwing some kindling across your terminals
just to make sure if it does arc, there is someting nice and close to
ignite (this is a good strategy if your in a survivor episode). Also his
wrenching technique by shorting the bus bars 3 or 4 times in a row was not
bravery, wait, maybe he is right, there wont be a lion EV pack in his
lifetime 'cause darwinism will prevail.
It was good to show that it was possible to build an Electric Muscle Car
(EMC) in one of Jessies build schedules. The only unfinished busines is
for someone to clean Jessies clock on the strip with an E-Dragster....are
you out there Dennis???
Good Job,
Jimmy
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The truck uses a heat pump for heating and cooling. Both for the
passenger compartment when driving, and for the battery pack when parked
and connected to the charger. The NiMH batteries generate a fair amount
of heat in use, and especially at the end of charge so the AC gets a
workout in the summer keeping the pack cool.
When it is below ~50 deg F, it will switch to using a diesel fueled
heater for passenger comfort. It has been pointed out there may be an
easy way to override this and always use the heat pump; I haven't tried
that... yet.
A downside of this is that the battery pack can heat up during the drive
to work, and stay hot all day since not on the charger, and no fresh
outside air, which reduces range. The EV-1 may have had some sort of
venting scheme?
Mike Phillips wrote:
I'd love to know more about the air conditioning and heating used for
the pack!
Mike
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], "Mike Ellis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
He posted his response, they batts are dead.
So tempting.
-Mike
On 4/10/06, Jim Coate <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
1997 S-10 EV on eBay in Holland, MA:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=4629840591
--
Jim Coate
1970's Elec-Trak's
1997 Solectria Force
1998 Chevy S-10 NiMH BEV
1997 Chevy S-10 NGV Bi-Fuel
http://www.eeevee.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Replys line by line.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Neon John" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Monday, April 10, 2006 10:54 PM
Subject: Re: Corporate and retail charging installations.Comments
> On Sat, 8 Apr 2006 17:42:09 -0700, "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
>
>
> >These digital meters.. do have a peak Kw drawn display.. mine says 41Kw
and
> >change.... I wonder what happens when It says 50 to 75 and change???
>
> Is this a meter you own that you read to pay your landlord or a
> utility meter?
Ok this gets a bit tricky... My land lord has only my unit metered
seprately.. and PSE will NOT read it. They only read the building's main 480
meter.
That's OK with me I just pay the land lord 8 cents a Kwhr Cash. He pays PSE.
But he is very quick to pass on the added costs. So..should a massive Demand
charge show up... I will surely get tagged.
The 480 feed is on the main meter, And NOT on my 208 meter. So... I have to
log in at the start of a 480 draw and at the end. This is just being fair to
my land lord.
Ya gotta pay your way...
And we are schedual 24-c?? so Demand is cleary going to be a part of our
life...
>
> If it's a utility meter then they may or may not read it, depending on
> what schedule your landlord is on. Many utilities standardize on one
> type of meter for all schedules and simply ignore the data that does
> not apply. IOW, that meter may have a demand register only because
> that's the standard meter for 3 phase service for that utility.
That would be nice of course..since my actual draws are minimal until I do
full power thermal stress tests. Then it's gonna hurt! If they tage me for
just the months I slam watts... it's a fair deal.
But.. I foresee many months of boiling water and making a LOT of hot air
taking notes long into the night...
I intend to pass these costs along, if they become a finacial issue.
>
> >
> >So.. not much penatly in using a LOT Of kwhr... potentail slam up side
the
> >head if a peak Kw rate is exceded.
>
> Yup, supplying widely varying and short term peaks costs a lot of
> money. The distribution gear (everything from the meter base to the
> substation) has to be sized for peak loading. Transformer losses are
> a constant percentage of the transformer size so a large transformer
> feeding a small load has proportionally higher non-revenue losses.
>
Yea but we have a 150Kwva priamry... I won't be using much more than 1/2
that rate this year.
Looks to me like we are very well setup... We should not have a issue.
> Plus the utility has to have sufficient rotating reserves (generators
> synced but lightly loaded) to pick up those surges because the base
> load plants (nukes, coal, large NG and oil plants) can't change output
> fast enough. The ideal load from their perspective is one constant
> demand 24/7.
>
Umm Seattle Neon.. Got hydro.. it's been a wet year.. we are getting resale
benifits already on our power bills.
> >
> >Dumping a pack into the grid while doing a masisive draw... sounds like
> >trouble... until you get it right.
>
> This is pretty easy to do if you have room for the hardware. What you
> need is a 3 phase induction motor connected to an appropriately sized
> DC shunt motor. The DC motor should be sized to load your charger
> under test. The AC motor (which will also function as an induction
> generator) should be sized to load the DC motor. You'll also need a
> source of variable DC to drive the DC motor's field (a small
> industrial DC controller will work) and misc contactors. 100hp motors
> ought to handle what you're working on now plus some.
OK got a 208 three phase MG set from Dennis Berube as a Dyno last year...
about 40 hp.. and it has a 600 amp 36 volt DC end.
Plus.. I have numerous AC motors and piles of DC motors and controllers...
This could get to be very easy.
Flip on the AC, let motors spin up, Light up the Raptor, T-Rex Zilla 2K, and
drive the Grid like a race car!!!....
Got a dyno frame... and 78 Kw Buss motors.. and well I have the gear... is
it worth the time and effort??
We will see.
>
> Here's how this will work. Mechanically connect the two motors
> together. Connect your charger to the DC motor's armature. Connect
> the DC motor's field to the controller. Connect the AC motor to the 3
> phase line through a suitable motor starter.
>
Better yet... spin the Ac motor it %90 of the Sync speed with the DC motor,
Close the AC breaker. Got Sync? Better have it right.
The Charger will be hooked to a battery pack under test.
DC controller will draw from the pack.. and try to drive the AC motor faster
than Grid sync speed. This should look like a Brick wall as far as the RPM
is concerned. This will be a 3600 speed or a 1800 Rpm. For the Dc motors..
this is loafing.... and with 144 VDC or more on the pack.. We should be able
to really get the DC stuff to pull quite hard .
> To use this thing, start the AC motor by closing the motor starter.
> Turn on the charger but don't connect it to the DC motor yet. Set it
> to the desired test voltage.
>
> Apply field to the DC motor until it is generating the same voltage
> and polarity as the charger. Close the DC breaker. Now reduce the
> voltage on the field until the DC motor draws the desired current from
> the charger. There ya go.
Got DC motor controllers... this part should be well handled.
>
> What is happening is this. When the DC breaker is closed and the
> field is reduced, the DC motor tries to drive the AC motor faster than
> its operating speed. This causes the AC motor to become an induction
> generator and feed power out its terminals.
>
Yup I know been there done that, But not at this Watt level.
> This power, of course, flows to whatever power supply is supplying the
> charger's power. We have an "almost perpetual motion machine". The
> generated power is always less than the power drawn by the DC power
> supply (if you're using one) and the charger because of the losses in
> the system. The AC line only has to supply power to make up for the
> losses, probably under 10% of the circulating power.
>
This sure makes keeping the peak Grid draw under 50Kw easy...
> Unless you're going to stand there and watch the meters, you're going
> to need some protective instrumentation, of course. Trips to shut
> down the motors on loss of field, overheat and so on. Being as this
> uses a shunt motor, there isn't any chance of it running away if the
> coupling breaks like a series motor can. The worst fault will be loss
> of field which will try to make the motor run away while drawing
> infinite current as far as the charger-under-test is concerned.
>
I will be using series motors with Tachometers and Rev limiters installed
tested and active. The AC mains will be breakered or fused, the DC side
will look just like a high power
DC street machine...Cuzz it will be one..... I expect that I will also have
a Torque sensor.... and a LOT of digital feedbacks. So... Jim Husted... We
will have another Dyno...and I won't be heating
Nichrome... just spinning the meter back wards. Well one anyways.....
I see a AC drive and controls being designed with this equipment also... All
Toys soon build new products around here.
> At least in these parts, 100 hp class motors that have been
> surplused/salvaged aren't hard to find. There are still a lot of old
> relatively low efficiency motors out there that are being replaced.
> Seems like there are always a few sitting out for the scrap metal man
> at my friendly local motor repairman's shop.
Umm yea.. I have a few my self..
>
> A 50 horse DC motor with plenty of forced cooling air would probably
> do the job. These motors are so under-rated for long life that you
> can run 'em hard and put 'em up wet, so to speak :-) One of my
> clients is running a 600 VDC 50hp motor at about 80hp average on a
> large punch press and the only change was adding two cooling blowers.
> These are blowers that bolt on in place of the brush inspection covers
> and blow high velocity air through the inside of the motor.
> Off-the-shelf kits.
I have a EV Soletria AC 55 TEFC motor
3600rpm 25 HP lincoln
A 15 Hp 1800 rpm GE
a couple 1 nd 3 hp 3 phase 240/480 motors...
Time to drag them out of the Black berries...
I am lusting for a 100 Hp water cooled induction EV class motor..
Or more....
>
> I concurred with this decision (lots cheaper than buying a larger
> motor!) and did an infrared temperature study of the unit for awhile
> to confirm our estimation.
>
> For the DC motor, you'd want to look at the nameplate armature amps
> and select one with the size appropriate to your charger's output.
> With forced air cooling, the motor can safely absorb a multiple of
> that amp rating even at low voltage. A high voltage motor can be made
> to absorb its rated amps and beyond simply by turning the field down.
> I'd probably try to find a motor with a nameplate rating of about 75%
> of the max amps you anticipate producing. You can go larger but it'll
> weigh more and take up more space.
>
Umm Neon.... check the EV racer guy out thats' typing this... leave the DC
motor specsmenship to me.
Clearly will have to watch the motor and brush temps. 1800 rpm is NOT enough
to cool these motors, At 3600 I can reach name plate Hp numbers. Running at
4x nameplate for a full hour is going to need some really good air flow or
duty cycle reduction will be needed. Hey ... I don't like to melt them...
Except on TV.
> Even at your low total energy usage, such a setup would pay for itself
> in a couple of years if you can get the motors for scrap value. You
> could run the charger longer and at higher outputs if you desire and
> you won't be heating up the building in the summer or tickling that
> demand register.
>
Tickeling the Demand register is the point I am trying to avoid.
Heat... it was 52 in there today.. a couple or minutes at 50kw woulda felt
pretty good!
But when it gets hotter... that's a serious waste.
I hope I can step over the Demand line and have folks say.. that's nice...
But...I also may not want the attention....
Out of site out of mind has it's advantages...
> John
> ---
> John De Armond
> See my website for my current email address
> http://www.johngsbbq.com
> Cleveland, Occupied TN
> A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds.-Ralph Waldo
Emerson
Our TV star..
Madman
--- End Message ---
