EV Digest 5354
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Greetings
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Orb Carnage....
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) RE: TS Internal Resistance Testing
by Randall Prentice <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: 8" ADC
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: MPV EV Conversion
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Pack cooling/heating conduit
by Mike Phillips <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: TS Internal Resistance Testing
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: TS Internal Resistance Testing
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Thermal measurements
by Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) RE: TS Internal Resistance Testing
by "Bill Dennis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Monster Garage
by "Dave Davidson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Thermal measurements
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Hybrid Technologies LiX-75, Lithium based $125,000 supercar,
200mph
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: adventures in electronics
by Fortunat Mueller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Monster Garage
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
16) Re: Monster Garage
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Monster Garage
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Monster Garage
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Monster Garage
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) RE: TS Internal Resistance Testing
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Monster Garage
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- Begin Message ---
Jonathan \"Sheer\" Pullen wrote:
> As many of you know, I kind of slipped out of the EV world...
> However, I'm back
Welcome back! Quantum Mechanics was a neat EV, very efficient and
innovative with those NiZn batteries. We all look forward to future
exploits.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I will get some shots.. but I don't think they are really impressive.
Get yer attention when you are driving it though.
Madman
----- Original Message -----
From: "Grigg. John" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, April 11, 2006 1:02 PM
Subject: RE: Orb Carnage....
> Hey Rich, Do you have any pictures of this Orb/Reg Carnage. I would
> love to see it...
>
> John Grigg
>
>
> >From Rich:
>
> -I am kind known for my heavy foot while driving Goldie.
> -Tire smoke in part of my Aura...
>
> -Man there are some good shot of Goldie being very bad on the MG Show...
> I need to yard the dead lead out of her and get some fresh Smoke....
>
> -Ya got 'em Smoke 'em...
> -tires that is....
>
> -Madman
>
____________________________________________________________________________
> COUNTY OF SACRAMENTO EMAIL DISCLAIMER:
> This email and any attachments thereto may contain private, confidential,
and
> privileged material for the sole use of the intended recipient. Any
review,
> copying, or distribution of this email (or any attachments thereto) by
other
> than the County of Sacramento or the intended recipient is strictly
prohibited.
>
> If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender
immediately
> and permanently delete the original and any copies of this email and any
> attachments thereto.
>
____________________________________________________________________________
_
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Yes the elements work well as a load bank (Our smaller load banks < 30KVA
are typically built like fan heater elements).
For more prolonged testing you need a fan or something over them though.
The only thing to watch is that the resistance is not constant so you have
to measure Volts and Amps at the same time if everything isn't stable.
Regards
Randall Prentice
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bill Dennis
> Sent: Wednesday, 12 April 2006 5:28 a.m.
> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> Subject: RE: TS Internal Resistance Testing
>
>
> My kitchen toaster is 1200W, which would make a nice 10A
> current. Anyone know if it would be okay to hook a toaster
> to my pack for a few seconds? Seems like the elements are
> just resistors.
>
> Bill Dennis
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Victor Tikhonov
> Sent: Monday, April 10, 2006 2:05 AM
> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> Subject: Re: TS Internal Resistance Testing
>
> Bill, you don't use OCV for this.
>
> R_int = delta_V/delta_I
>
> I suppose you're interested to know discharge R_int (see below).
>
> Load the cell with the current close to one it will mostly be
> used at, say 40A and at the temp you'll be using it, and note
> the voltage V1. It will keep dropping, but that's OK.
> Increase the load to 50A (by connecting extra something in
> parallel to the main load) and immediately check the voltage
> again - V2. Remove extra load and check it third time - V3.
> Try to do all 3 measurements quickly, say within 2 sec each.
> Average voltage 1 and 3, this will be your voltage for 40A
> load, call it V12. R_int is (V12-V2)/10A. In general case it
> is divided by the currents delta, in this case 50A-40A=10A.
>
> Hypothetical example:
>
> 40A load = 3.35V
> 50A load = 3.14V
> back to 40A load = 3.33V now (because the cell has depleted a bit).
>
> Average voltage for 40A is 3.34V.
>
> R_int = (3.34V-3.14V)/10A = 0.2V/10A=0.02 Ohm.
>
> 1. Result is very dependent on SOC. As you discharge,
> R_int for discharge increase as well as rate of it's
> increase. 2. Charge R_int is different from discharge R_int
> at the same SOC. Charge R_int would be if you charge cell
> with 40A, measure voltage, increase charging current to 50A,
> measure voltage, drop charging current back to 40A and
> measure again. 3. R_int is very temp dependent, the lower
> temp the more R_int, and below 0'C it is sharply increased.
> 4. R_int is not linear - at light loads it will be different
> vs. heavy loads. How different - interestingly depends on
> duration of testing - for light loads R_int will appear
> lower, but for heavy ones it is higher in the beginning but
> only if you won't allow measurement to raise the cell temp so
> that this heating effect, lowering R_int outweigh increased
> R_int because the load itself is heavy. Outcome of such test
> may get confusing, so just measure it quickly at one point
> typical for your driving - that's what is relevant.
>
> Hope this helps.
>
> Victor
>
> Bill Dennis wrote:
> > How do I test for the internal resistance of a ThunderSky cell? My
> > first attempt was to hook three cells in series, then
> connect them to
> > the motor. The OCV was 12V, and about 35A was being drawn when the
> > circuit was connected. I thought I would compare the
> voltage at 35A
> > to the open
> circuit
> > voltage. But the voltage never stayed the same. It just kept
> > dropping
> all
> > the time (about 1/100 volt every 10 seconds).
> >
> > Do I need to test with a lower current, or is there some
> other method
> > for testing the resistance?
> >
> > Thanks.
> >
> > Bill Dennis
>
>
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Rush wrote:
> Which brings me to another question - what is the max vdc that a 8"
> can be supplied before damaging the motor?
The racers will have much better data than I will. I try *not* to break
things! :-)
The key here is how much voltage, for how long, and at what current?
If you're talking about the Advanced DC 8" 203-06-4001, it is rated at
120 volts at 170 amps, continuous duty. Assuming you advance the
brushes, you shouldn't have any trouble at 150% of this, or 180 volts as
long as you keep the current down.
If you let the voltage and current simultaneously get high, that's where
arcing really gets to be a problem. The racers are usually running high
voltage *AND* very high currents at the same time.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Search for Chrysler EPIC Minivan to see how this can be accomplished.
Victor
Brian Kardell wrote:
My family has owned a 1997 Mazda MPV for many years, but we blew the
engine
about a year ago and it has been sitting in our driveway ever since. We
decided to look into converting it into an alternative energy vehicle
rather
than just buying a new engine or scrapping it. Our kids are homeschooled
and we thought that it would be very educational all around, we would
get to
keep our beloved mini-van, save the planet from a little pollution and
potentially wrestle ourselves from the soaring cost of petro-fuels.
As we
are newbies to this subject, we are sort of in the dark.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Opinions wanted. Some lore ok :)
I am thinking of adding some Cloroplast to my truck's pack, between
rows of batts, to duct airflow to the isolated batterys under the cab.
These have proven to be very big water hogs compared to batterys in
other parts of the box. The gap between my battery rows is 5/8". It
will probably take a couple layers of Cloroplast to end up with that
exact dimension. But if the Cloroplast is about 3-4" high and 5/8"
total width, that strikes me as enough cross sectional area to purge
the hot air from the small end of the box. Since the batterys are
spaced using 5/8" wood spacers, then these should drop in.
The way I imagine feeding the air into the Cloroplast is by machining a
slot into the side of a piece of pvc pipe. Then siliconing the two
together. That could make a decent manifold/header.
The second part of using Cloroplast is that I could string heater wire
through them to heat the batterys when needed. This would take a test
to make sure the plastic can handle it.
Cloroplast is more fire resistant than the wood I have. The wholesale
house in town said it was like $46 for the 3/8" x 4' x 8' sheet and $25
for 3/16". That's way more than I need, but the cost is not bad. There
is a fire rated version I may look into as well.
Mike
Here's to the crazy ones.
The misfits.
The rebels.
The troublemakers.
The round pegs in the square holes.
The ones who see things differently
The ones that change the world!!
www.RotorDesign.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Bill Dennis wrote:
> My kitchen toaster is 1200W, which would make a nice 10A current.
> Anyone know if it would be okay to hook a toaster to my pack for
> a few seconds? Seems like the elements are just resistors.
It will work fine until it tries to turn off. And then it won't! The
switch will try to open, but with DC it will just arc across. The arc
will destroy the switch, and may go on to destroy some more things
before something finally burn open far enough to interrupt the current
flow.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Bill Dennis wrote:
My kitchen toaster is 1200W, which would make a nice 10A current. Anyone
know if it would be okay to hook a toaster to my pack for a few seconds?
Seems like the elements are just resistors.
Bill Dennis
You can use it, but make sure you use alligator clips or something you
can break the circuit with providing fair distance between contacts,
so no arcs. Normal switches WILL NOT work, don't try. An AC switch
may last exactly one turn on event.
It is better if you use 4 toasters in parallel :-)
I use ceramic heaters as load banks for cycling.
The problem with toasters (And heaters) is that they take
time to heat up and settle at certain temp, while they do,
their resistance changes so you can't do the measurements
right away. If you do - wait until the current is stable,
measure voltage, increase the current without disconnecting
toasters (by connecting additional load), and do your measurements.
Finally, I suppose you're talking about whole 120VDC or so pack;
one 3.6V cell will not produce any meaningful current through
a toaster. I test single cells with a steel wire (coat hanger type).
For accurate results I use programmable load banks, but for quick
and dirty R_int checks a wire will be accurate enough. Use good DVMs.
Victor
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Tue, 11 Apr 2006 11:59:09 -0600, "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
>Hello Mike,
>
>The sensor has only two wires coming from it. It is inside a shielded
>jacket. I than connected the two wires to the two wires which in the 10
>wire or 5 pair cable where each pair is twisted and each wire is shielded
>with a outside jacket shield.
>
>It did not make any difference which of the two wires on the sensor
>connected to No. 6 and No. 8 on the back of the Link-10 terminal.
That sure sounds like a thermistor. Can you put a meter on the sensor
leads and report what you see?
John
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.johngsbbq.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds.-Ralph Waldo Emerson
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Yeah, I thought I would connect to toaster to the whole pack, but just
measure the voltage drop across a few of the single cells, since they'll all
have the same amps flowing through them.
Bill Dennis
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Victor Tikhonov
Sent: Tuesday, April 11, 2006 2:52 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: TS Internal Resistance Testing
Bill Dennis wrote:
> My kitchen toaster is 1200W, which would make a nice 10A current. Anyone
> know if it would be okay to hook a toaster to my pack for a few seconds?
> Seems like the elements are just resistors.
>
> Bill Dennis
You can use it, but make sure you use alligator clips or something you
can break the circuit with providing fair distance between contacts,
so no arcs. Normal switches WILL NOT work, don't try. An AC switch
may last exactly one turn on event.
It is better if you use 4 toasters in parallel :-)
I use ceramic heaters as load banks for cycling.
The problem with toasters (And heaters) is that they take
time to heat up and settle at certain temp, while they do,
their resistance changes so you can't do the measurements
right away. If you do - wait until the current is stable,
measure voltage, increase the current without disconnecting
toasters (by connecting additional load), and do your measurements.
Finally, I suppose you're talking about whole 120VDC or so pack;
one 3.6V cell will not produce any meaningful current through
a toaster. I test single cells with a steel wire (coat hanger type).
For accurate results I use programmable load banks, but for quick
and dirty R_int checks a wire will be accurate enough. Use good DVMs.
Victor
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
For a car put together in a week under the duress of Jesse and the film
crew, and taken out for the first time, I was very impressed.
Normally, you design more thoroughly, build with less haste, then take it
out and try it, go back to see what worked and what didn't, make adjustments
and corrections (sometimes redesign), take it out again, and repeat until
satisfied. I can guarrantee you the hemi wasn't just put together that
week.
What has become of the car? Would love to see it at the Power of DC.
Dave
----Original Message Follows----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Reply-To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Monster Garage
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2006 15:51:36 -0400
I must say that the reason we didn't win on the track was lack of execution
on our behalf.
We certainly had the tools for a very low 13 second car. Our setup was
wrong, the tire pressure too high, the breaker box too small, The shifter
incorrectly adjusted (It popped out on one run), etc..., etc... These were
all our decisions. While it is true we were shorted on work time we SHOULD
have still left the hemi in the dust. We were not told to lose at any time.
Nobody was more disappointed then I that we didn't win but such is drag
racing. We live to fight another day. Thanks for the good word on our
behalf.
Shawn
-----Original Message-----
From: Michaela Merz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Sent: Tue, 11 Apr 2006 11:00:03 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Monster Garage
I don't know if we are talking about the same show here. The one I saw was
biased towards ICE dragsters, told the viewers how dangerous electric cars
are, spent $80,000 in 'freebies' and still couldn't win on the track.
While most of you are specialized in some sort of engineering, I am a PR
and marketing person by trade. And from an 'ev' public relations
perspective, the show wasn't good at all. I don't blame Rich or Shawn
(they tried their best) but it seems to me they have been railroaded.
I did a quick (not representative) panel among friends I asked to watch
the show (about 40) that are not involved with (but are interested in)
electric vehicles. Unfortunately, approx. 70% came back with a definitely
more negative opinion about EVs.
If interested, I can post my list of questions about EVs and the answers
before and after the show.
It was nice though, to have a face for some of the people that have
contributed so much for the EV community.
Thanks Rich and Shawn.
Michaela
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
* ---REMAINDER OF MESSAGE TRUNCATED--- *
* This post contains a forbidden message format *
* (such as an attached file, a v-card, HTML formatting) *
* Lists at sjsu.edu only accept PLAIN TEXT *
* If your postings display this message your mail program *
* is not set to send PLAIN TEXT ONLY and needs adjusting *
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello John,
The terminal block connection where the Link-10 and sensor is connected
together is below the PFC-50 battery charger which is bolted in, hinge,
air-structed, that also has a instrument panel over it and cable terminal
connected. Cannot get to it, unless I spend a day taking everything apart.
It may be better if you can get Rod at EV Parts to measure one for you,
where they are on the shelf.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "Neon John" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, April 11, 2006 4:00 PM
Subject: Re: Thermal measurements
> On Tue, 11 Apr 2006 11:59:09 -0600, "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
>
> >Hello Mike,
> >
> >The sensor has only two wires coming from it. It is inside a shielded
> >jacket. I than connected the two wires to the two wires which in the 10
> >wire or 5 pair cable where each pair is twisted and each wire is shielded
> >with a outside jacket shield.
> >
> >It did not make any difference which of the two wires on the sensor
> >connected to No. 6 and No. 8 on the back of the Link-10 terminal.
>
> That sure sounds like a thermistor. Can you put a meter on the sensor
> leads and report what you see?
>
> John
> ---
> John De Armond
> See my website for my current email address
> http://www.johngsbbq.com
> Cleveland, Occupied TN
> A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds.-Ralph Waldo
> Emerson
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I do know about some projects Hybrid tech put together, this car
is one of them. Sorry, can't tell more (they are my customer) but
they may surprise you in future - get ready.
Victor
Lightning Ryan wrote:
Anyone seen this thing yet?
per http://www.mobilemag.com/content/100/354/C7322/
http://www.hybridtechnologies.com Hybrid Technologies LiX-75 Lithium
based $125,000 supercar, 200mph, 3 second 0-60.
L8r
Ryan
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks Cor, Arthur and John for your help in trying to
fix my PS, or atleast identify the key components.
Arthur, I did used to be a member of EVTech, but
somehow I was unsubscribed. I am thinking about trying
out EVForge.net for this discussion since I think you
can share photos there, which would help. Do you need
to register to use it ?
I guess the thing that would help me the most would be
a schematic for this or a similar power supply. If I
can't find that, how about a block diagram type of
general description of how the power parts of this
power supply work, and in what order they would be
connected. Something like :
"120 AC goes to xformer and comes out as 30 V AC which
then gets chopped by a mosfet and then rectified by a
diode" or whatever.
is someone able to provide that for me ?
I did take some pictures of the pieces I was talking
about and I think I will post them to EVForge for help
in identifying them.
thanks so much for all your help.
~fortunat
--- John Luck Home <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> That will be the reverse protection diode normally
> connected across the
> black and the red output socket.
>
> Use a multimeter and check for short circuit across
> the red and black
> terminals. If it is, open up the PSU and trace the
> wiring back and sometimes
> on a small daughter PCB you will find a diode. I
> guess it will be short.
>
> John
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Fortunat Mueller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
> Sent: Saturday, April 08, 2006 6:22 PM
> Subject: adventures in electronics
>
>
> > Hi all,
> >
> > Some of you may remember when I reported that on
> my
> > very first test drive with Nicds, i reversed one
> > 'module' of batteries (20 BB600 cells per
> 'module')
> > because i stupidly hadn't charged them the same as
> the
> > rest.
> > Anyway, when i got back to my garage and realized
> what
> > I had done, I tried to hook up my little lab power
> > supply to drive the module back to positive, but
> is
> > instantly smoked (i guess it wasn't reverse
> polarity
> > protected).
> >
> > so, now I am trying to figure out what smoked. Can
> you
> > help ? I am mostly a chemical/mechanical type, but
> I
> > understand electronics and can work a multimeter
> or
> > scope. And I am interested to learn.
> >
> > The power supply is a basic bench top 0-30 V, 3A
> > supply. It is one of those 'sort of' standard
> > transformer based lab power supplies (30V, 3A)
> with
> > individual voltage a current adjustment knobs. It
> is
> > made by Electro Industries and has a part number
> Digi
> > 35A. But i doubt that matters much, since i am
> > guessing these types of supplies are all similar.
> It
> > seems like there is a transformer, a bunch of
> control
> > circuits, some display circuits, a couple solid
> state
> > switches (are they fets ?).
> >
> > Anyway, the symptoms are : the power supply still
> > turns on, but the display comes up and i can turn
> the
> > current up and down, but the voltage stays at .2 V
> no
> > matter what. any ideas about how to fix this ?
> >
> > when the supply fried, i saw just a tiny wisp of
> smoke
> > come out of the supply. It seemed like it came
> from an
> > area in the case where there are not a lot of
> > components, so I thought I would start there to
> see if
> > I could find a bad part. There are two main parts
> in
> > that area. One is a capacitor (labeled 63 V,
> 3300uF),
> > the other is a solid state switch (fet?) that is
> about
> > 1/2 in squared and is heat sinked to the base of
> the
> > supply. Neither looks obviously burned.
> >
> > so my question, how can i test those individual
> > devices ? Is there something I can do with a
> > multimeter to see if the Cap is ok ? My DMM has a
> > setting for CAP, but i have never used it. what is
> the
> > failure mode for a cap anyway ? shorted ? loss of
> > capacitance ?
> >
> > what about the 'switch' ? It has four leads coming
> off
> > it and two of them appear to be tied to together
> by a
> > resistor (R-Y-Br-R; is that 240 ohm?). Should I
> assume
> > those two are the 'coil' and the others are the
> > contacts ?
> > anyway to check to operation of this device ?
> >
> > Finally, at the back of the supply there are two
> > circular discs mounted on a big heat sink. They
> look
> > like thermal snap discs or something, and have
> part
> > number " Greaves Limited 2N3055HV" printed on them
> ?
> > What is the function of these ? They both read
> 'open'
> > between the pins, which seems odd if they are over
> > temperature protection (since it is about 40
> degrees
> > in my garage today).
> >
> > anyway, i realize this is a touch OT, but this
> supply
> > is my EV battery comissioning supply, and i know
> there
> > are electronics experts on this list and I hope
> one of
> > you is patient enough to help me learn some of
> this
> > stuff.
> >
> > i am most grateful for your help.
> >
> > ~fortunat
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > __________________________________________________
> > Do You Yahoo!?
> > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam
> protection around
> > http://mail.yahoo.com
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > No virus found in this incoming message.
> > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> > Version: 7.1.385 / Virus Database: 268.4.0/304 -
> Release Date: 07/04/2006
> >
> >
>
>
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hey! I was the dumb a__ that tried to destroy the wrench. Not sure
what I was doing there I may have gone bye byes by then.
There just was no way given the layout to wire the pack cold. The
bolts were soooo close together and we had no coated tools. At some
point it came down to DO IT or go home.
Shawn
-----Original Message-----
From: DM3 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Sent: Tue, 11 Apr 2006 13:58:06 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: Monster Garage
Rich and Shawn,
It looks like you did your best considering some attitudes, opinions and
decisions made ahead of time. I think the show was good for gear heads
to
see that you can make an E-car that can turn some heads.
The unfortunate thing was that the Duuude (Mr Lion) had to mention how
"we" wouldn't see a Lion EV pack in "our lifetime" (thats a long time if
your 20), you can see the extent of his visoin. I think he has been
around the lumber department at home depot a little too long.
Supporting
buss bars with wood is like throwing some kindling across your terminals
just to make sure if it does arc, there is someting nice and close to
ignite (this is a good strategy if your in a survivor episode). Also
his
wrenching technique by shorting the bus bars 3 or 4 times in a row was
not
bravery, wait, maybe he is right, there wont be a lion EV pack in his
lifetime 'cause darwinism will prevail.
It was good to show that it was possible to build an Electric Muscle Car
(EMC) in one of Jessies build schedules. The only unfinished busines is
for someone to clean Jessies clock on the strip with an
E-Dragster....are
you out there Dennis???
Good Job,
Jimmy
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jimmy dude!!
hello wake up!
Asking Dennis to come and show us a thing or two about a Rail dragster Vs a
half baked Ev that was thrown together with Camera jerks in our Butt
Cracks..
Ain't the best way to Build a race car.
This would be a total insult to Dennis.
Ok .. try this...
about 5 guys are calling a LOOSER every 30 seconds, They are insulting us
and making insinuations that are rude and unprintable.
We have 12 Buss bar racks... and no way to support them. UMHW plastic is
about 200 bucks for enough to make one pack. SO...lumber looked awefull good
and cheap in the "Budget" that we had.
Wet wood is clearly not a good idea.. Shawn and John found that out..., Then
Kiln Dryed REDWOOD is dry enough and in California it's ...available...
SO..... A little bit of Survivor and a Lot make it happen NOW is what got
this EV up and running...
Also... we had a fire guy... just outside of view....
Dennis won't be called out... leave him out of this.
What would be nice is to see is Gone Postal square off against the MG
machine. They are the same class of Big toys that ... really are for and
pleasure.. not real racing.
Lets keep the Fastest EV out of the Fray of the Built in 5 days 5000 lbs
rust bucket.
Madman
----- Original Message -----
From: "DM3" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, April 11, 2006 1:58 PM
Subject: Re: Monster Garage
> Rich and Shawn,
> It looks like you did your best considering some attitudes, opinions and
> decisions made ahead of time. I think the show was good for gear heads to
> see that you can make an E-car that can turn some heads.
>
> The unfortunate thing was that the Duuude (Mr Lion) had to mention how
> "we" wouldn't see a Lion EV pack in "our lifetime" (thats a long time if
> your 20), you can see the extent of his visoin. I think he has been
> around the lumber department at home depot a little too long. Supporting
> buss bars with wood is like throwing some kindling across your terminals
> just to make sure if it does arc, there is someting nice and close to
> ignite (this is a good strategy if your in a survivor episode). Also his
> wrenching technique by shorting the bus bars 3 or 4 times in a row was not
> bravery, wait, maybe he is right, there wont be a lion EV pack in his
> lifetime 'cause darwinism will prevail.
>
> It was good to show that it was possible to build an Electric Muscle Car
> (EMC) in one of Jessies build schedules. The only unfinished busines is
> for someone to clean Jessies clock on the strip with an E-Dragster....are
> you out there Dennis???
> Good Job,
> Jimmy
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Actually the Hemi was in part and pieces 3 days before, it had less than 50
miles on it as it came off the trailer.
In fact he had 60 PSI in the tires on the first couple of runs.. hence the
poor launches.
Ron a build team member started to get wise about run #4. Then he started
leaving us in the Dust.
Jesse was intent on smoking motors and breaking stuff... else we would have
gotten to tire pressue about the next run.
But.. we could lauch and out 60 Ft the Hemi... is we had real Drag strip
Rubber.
But clearly we could not out HP the Hemi...sigh....
But we all think we could have found about 1 to 1.5 seconds if we had a day
at the tracl before Jesse showed up.
My lesson was to bring a LOT larger breakers.... and make a built Proof
precharge circuit... or simple get a Hairball2 from Otmar and a newer Zilla
2K.
Madman
The MG car is in Texas as of last night.
It's a show car for Milwaukee Tool.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dave Davidson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, April 11, 2006 3:15 PM
Subject: Re: Monster Garage
> For a car put together in a week under the duress of Jesse and the film
> crew, and taken out for the first time, I was very impressed.
>
> Normally, you design more thoroughly, build with less haste, then take it
> out and try it, go back to see what worked and what didn't, make
adjustments
> and corrections (sometimes redesign), take it out again, and repeat until
> satisfied. I can guarrantee you the hemi wasn't just put together that
> week.
>
> What has become of the car? Would love to see it at the Power of DC.
>
> Dave
>
> ----Original Message Follows----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Reply-To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> Subject: Re: Monster Garage
> Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2006 15:51:36 -0400
>
> I must say that the reason we didn't win on the track was lack of
execution
> on our behalf.
> We certainly had the tools for a very low 13 second car. Our setup was
> wrong, the tire pressure too high, the breaker box too small, The shifter
> incorrectly adjusted (It popped out on one run), etc..., etc... These were
> all our decisions. While it is true we were shorted on work time we
SHOULD
> have still left the hemi in the dust. We were not told to lose at any
time.
> Nobody was more disappointed then I that we didn't win but such is drag
> racing. We live to fight another day. Thanks for the good word on our
> behalf.
>
> Shawn
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Michaela Merz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> Sent: Tue, 11 Apr 2006 11:00:03 -0500 (CDT)
> Subject: Re: Monster Garage
>
> I don't know if we are talking about the same show here. The one I saw was
> biased towards ICE dragsters, told the viewers how dangerous electric cars
> are, spent $80,000 in 'freebies' and still couldn't win on the track.
>
> While most of you are specialized in some sort of engineering, I am a PR
> and marketing person by trade. And from an 'ev' public relations
> perspective, the show wasn't good at all. I don't blame Rich or Shawn
> (they tried their best) but it seems to me they have been railroaded.
>
> I did a quick (not representative) panel among friends I asked to watch
> the show (about 40) that are not involved with (but are interested in)
> electric vehicles. Unfortunately, approx. 70% came back with a definitely
> more negative opinion about EVs.
>
> If interested, I can post my list of questions about EVs and the answers
> before and after the show.
>
> It was nice though, to have a face for some of the people that have
> contributed so much for the EV community.
>
> Thanks Rich and Shawn.
>
> Michaela
>
>
>
>
> * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
> * ---REMAINDER OF MESSAGE TRUNCATED--- *
> * This post contains a forbidden message format *
> * (such as an attached file, a v-card, HTML formatting) *
> * Lists at sjsu.edu only accept PLAIN TEXT *
> * If your postings display this message your mail program *
> * is not set to send PLAIN TEXT ONLY and needs adjusting *
> * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Just after I bailed because I realized it so dangerous... we goofed and
those bolts were too close for sane comfort.
The lesson here that you need to plan the assembly so you never have to do a
really hot connection. This took us about 45 minutes of terror, and scheming
.
Then .... we got it right and it was safe enough to at least assemble...
without getting Dead.
Every time I reach into a live pack... I have flashbacks.....
My Fiero is now over 250 volts... I have these levels of hazzard in my
street cars.
But three times Shawn????? Does that prove you are 3 times more foolish than
I ???? Or three times braver...
At that point in the Game... it was too close to call.
Damn I wish I had pocketed that wrench.....
AS I am sure you do too!!
Madman
----- Original Message -----
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, April 11, 2006 3:51 PM
Subject: Re: Monster Garage
> Hey! I was the dumb a__ that tried to destroy the wrench. Not sure
> what I was doing there I may have gone bye byes by then.
> There just was no way given the layout to wire the pack cold. The
> bolts were soooo close together and we had no coated tools. At some
> point it came down to DO IT or go home.
>
> Shawn
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: DM3 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> Sent: Tue, 11 Apr 2006 13:58:06 -0700 (PDT)
> Subject: Re: Monster Garage
>
> Rich and Shawn,
> It looks like you did your best considering some attitudes, opinions and
> decisions made ahead of time. I think the show was good for gear heads
> to
> see that you can make an E-car that can turn some heads.
>
> The unfortunate thing was that the Duuude (Mr Lion) had to mention how
> "we" wouldn't see a Lion EV pack in "our lifetime" (thats a long time if
> your 20), you can see the extent of his visoin. I think he has been
> around the lumber department at home depot a little too long.
> Supporting
> buss bars with wood is like throwing some kindling across your terminals
> just to make sure if it does arc, there is someting nice and close to
> ignite (this is a good strategy if your in a survivor episode). Also
> his
> wrenching technique by shorting the bus bars 3 or 4 times in a row was
> not
> bravery, wait, maybe he is right, there wont be a lion EV pack in his
> lifetime 'cause darwinism will prevail.
>
> It was good to show that it was possible to build an Electric Muscle Car
> (EMC) in one of Jessies build schedules. The only unfinished busines is
> for someone to clean Jessies clock on the strip with an
> E-Dragster....are
> you out there Dennis???
> Good Job,
> Jimmy
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
As to Us never seeing another Lion pack in our life time..
Bull... Sorry John Zick from MG team
But I have done it with Milwaukee Tool's help in 2005, and I expect that I
will have my hands on many
other Lion packs this year from many different clients and sources.
2006 is the year battery advancements happen.
Everybody I know has some manufacture promising super high power Li
something... it'a matter of who is really telling the truth.
And when the Goods really get in to EVers hands.
Most Lithium Vendors are not interested in 500 to 1000 amp draws, and Well
there ain't no packs available out there that can survive this draw.Well I
bet some military stuff can...
But... we can't play the "Cost is no Object" game quite yet.
The hang up is the BMS and the pack conductor structure to support massive
currents. JUST exactly like the Battery pack issues we had a Monsgter
Garage. GOT batteries.. how the heck
do we hook up 32 in parallel and then suck 3600 amps from them and not start
a fire.....
The next big question is how the heck do we charge them???? You don't think
I have not spent hours and months working this out???? And a few Grand in
hardware and software???? This is what I do for a living..and it's what the
future of High power Evs is all about.
As the Show shows... I really don't want to get a Darwin award, and I really
didn't want our team or Jesse to get one either.
The Camera Crews and the shop manager... Umm I have a lot less respect for.
But injury... was avoided....thank God for that.
Shawn and I came Darn close... more than a few times... You didn't see them
all.. You didn't see me lose my cool... and have to back out...
I thank MG for not showing this.. there was a LOT more drama in the Flashing
Wrench sean that they showed....Lots was unprintable and close to insane
levels of danger.
I have been in some hairy places... this was one of the worse.. since they
were trying to get me hurt on Camera....I came very close to doing something
foolish.
Shawn ended up trying to, and vaporizing the wrench... and lived to tell
about it.
Madman
----- Original Message -----
From: "DM3" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, April 11, 2006 1:58 PM
Subject: Re: Monster Garage
> Rich and Shawn,
> It looks like you did your best considering some attitudes, opinions and
> decisions made ahead of time. I think the show was good for gear heads to
> see that you can make an E-car that can turn some heads.
>
> The unfortunate thing was that the Duuude (Mr Lion) had to mention how
> "we" wouldn't see a Lion EV pack in "our lifetime" (thats a long time if
> your 20), you can see the extent of his visoin. I think he has been
> around the lumber department at home depot a little too long. Supporting
> buss bars with wood is like throwing some kindling across your terminals
> just to make sure if it does arc, there is someting nice and close to
> ignite (this is a good strategy if your in a survivor episode). Also his
> wrenching technique by shorting the bus bars 3 or 4 times in a row was not
> bravery, wait, maybe he is right, there wont be a lion EV pack in his
> lifetime 'cause darwinism will prevail.
>
> It was good to show that it was possible to build an Electric Muscle Car
> (EMC) in one of Jessies build schedules. The only unfinished busines is
> for someone to clean Jessies clock on the strip with an E-Dragster....are
> you out there Dennis???
> Good Job,
> Jimmy
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Most toasters I have opened (if not the simple mechanical type)
have an electro-magnetic hold-down. Not sure if this works on
AC - on DC it may have too low resistance and overheat.
I am not sure if the power for the microcontroller is stepped
down by a resistor or a capacitor.
Cheap (non-isolated) control systems like Infrared detectors on
lights and such use a capacitor and zener diode to create a low
current, low voltage power supply from the AC current through
the capacitor. On DC supply, this fails.
The "switch" that engages the toaster is a little PCB relay.
Check its specs and you will know what it can break.
An old water cooker, room heater or steam iron comes to mind
as test load that does not change temp so dramatically to take
a long time to settle. Fill with water to increase the load
they can take.
I tested one 12V battery at 75A with 100ft copper wire in my
one hour discharge test.
Regards,
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Lee Hart
Sent: Tuesday, April 11, 2006 2:56 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: TS Internal Resistance Testing
Bill Dennis wrote:
> My kitchen toaster is 1200W, which would make a nice 10A current.
> Anyone know if it would be okay to hook a toaster to my pack for
> a few seconds? Seems like the elements are just resistors.
It will work fine until it tries to turn off. And then it won't! The
switch will try to open, but with DC it will just arc across. The arc
will destroy the switch, and may go on to destroy some more things
before something finally burn open far enough to interrupt the current
flow.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Brave no. Foolish No. Tired of being called a P_____, Loser, Ev Geek,
Yes.
As my 9th great grandfather John Stark once proclaimed, "Live free or
Die"
Shawn
-----Original Message-----
From: Rich Rudman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Sent: Tue, 11 Apr 2006 16:44:11 -0700
Subject: Re: Monster Garage
Just after I bailed because I realized it so dangerous... we goofed and
those bolts were too close for sane comfort.
The lesson here that you need to plan the assembly so you never have to
do a
really hot connection. This took us about 45 minutes of terror, and
scheming
.
Then .... we got it right and it was safe enough to at least assemble...
without getting Dead.
Every time I reach into a live pack... I have flashbacks.....
My Fiero is now over 250 volts... I have these levels of hazzard in my
street cars.
But three times Shawn????? Does that prove you are 3 times more foolish
than
I ???? Or three times braver...
At that point in the Game... it was too close to call.
Damn I wish I had pocketed that wrench.....
AS I am sure you do too!!
Madman
----- Original Message -----
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, April 11, 2006 3:51 PM
Subject: Re: Monster Garage
Hey! I was the dumb a__ that tried to destroy the wrench. Not sure
what I was doing there I may have gone bye byes by then.
There just was no way given the layout to wire the pack cold. The
bolts were soooo close together and we had no coated tools. At some
point it came down to DO IT or go home.
Shawn
-----Original Message-----
From: DM3 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Sent: Tue, 11 Apr 2006 13:58:06 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: Monster Garage
Rich and Shawn,
It looks like you did your best considering some attitudes, opinions
and
decisions made ahead of time. I think the show was good for gear
heads
to
see that you can make an E-car that can turn some heads.
The unfortunate thing was that the Duuude (Mr Lion) had to mention how
"we" wouldn't see a Lion EV pack in "our lifetime" (thats a long time
if
your 20), you can see the extent of his visoin. I think he has been
around the lumber department at home depot a little too long.
Supporting
buss bars with wood is like throwing some kindling across your
terminals
just to make sure if it does arc, there is someting nice and close to
ignite (this is a good strategy if your in a survivor episode). Also
his
wrenching technique by shorting the bus bars 3 or 4 times in a row was
not
bravery, wait, maybe he is right, there wont be a lion EV pack in his
lifetime 'cause darwinism will prevail.
It was good to show that it was possible to build an Electric Muscle
Car
(EMC) in one of Jessies build schedules. The only unfinished busines
is
for someone to clean Jessies clock on the strip with an
E-Dragster....are
you out there Dennis???
Good Job,
Jimmy
--- End Message ---
