EV Digest 5359
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Multi charger. (Dennis Berube)
by "Paul G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Multi charger. (Dennis Berube)
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
3) Re: Is a 200 mph Electric Cup Car possible ?
by Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Is a 200 mph Electric Cup Car possible ?
by Robert Baertsch <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Monster Garage
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Chevy Luv burnouts?
by "Tom Carpenter" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Is a 200 mph Electric Cup Car possible ?
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Fwd: Monster Garage
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Milwaukee Tool Battery
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Is a 200 mph Electric Cup Car possible ?
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Is a 200 mph Electric Cup Car possible ?
by Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Is a 200 mph Electric Cup Car possible ?
by Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Milwaukee Tool Battery
by John Norton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Group 24 battery options
by Tom Hudson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Is a 200 mph Electric Cup Car possible ?
by "Dave Davidson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Hybridize-yourself?
by "Stefan T. Peters" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Hybridize-yourself?
by "Stefan T. Peters" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) RE: DMM Question
by "Jody Dewey" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Genny
by "John Luck Home" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Monster Garage
by "Ryan Stotts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Group 24 battery options
by "Doug Hartley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Fwd: Monster Garage
by "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: Is a 200 mph Electric Cup Car possible ?
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: Milwaukee Tool Battery
by "Ryan Stotts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Yup, I see I have a reading problem late at night <blush>
Do you know the approximate dimensions of that charger?
Paul G.
On Apr 12, 2006, at 1:14 PM, Ryan Stotts wrote:
"> I have been using the 10 packx3 Deltran charger "
Paul G. wrote:
What model of Deltran charger are you using?
I would guess it to be this model:
http://batterytender.com/product_info.php?products_id=20
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
In a message dated 4/12/06 2:06:54 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
<< Subj: Re: Multi charger. (Dennis Berube)
Date: 4/12/06 2:06:54 PM Pacific Daylight Time
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Paul G.)
Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Reply-to: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Yup, I see I have a reading problem late at night <blush>
Do you know the approximate dimensions of that charger?
Paul G.
>>
16x7x7in. Dennis
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Wed, 12 Apr 2006 08:42:08 -0400, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>I need some input from the experts out there. What are the absolute
>minimums it will take in the form of batteries, motors, controllers,
>chargers, (all the essential EV stuff), to get a 3-4 year old Nextel
>cup car chassis with all required onboard equipment to a peak speed of
>200 + MPH and an average of 190 MPH for one lap at Daytona? I know it
>can be done but what is the best way?
Get me the frontal area and Cd and I'll compute the power required for
you. I think it'll be quite a challenge because of the tires that are
available. Probably a big Li pack.
John
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.johngsbbq.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds.-Ralph Waldo Emerson
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Assuming the stock 2002 Monte Carlo has a cd = 0.33 and for 1998 the Cd
= 0.35
I'll take 0.33 and a frontal area of 25 sq. ft and curb weight of 3000lbs.
At 190 mph you will need 378 hp for air drag and rolling drag of 128
hp. Not likely with an electric.
If you drop the Cd to 0.21, then you only need 241hp plus the rolling
drag, much more possible for an electric.
-Robert
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
It would be a "standard" cup car (such as a Monte Carlo) from a few
years ago.
-----Original Message-----
From: Robert Baertsch <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Sent: Wed, 12 Apr 2006 11:02:03 -0700
Subject: Re: Is a 200 mph Electric Cup Car possible ?
Shawn,
What shape body are you planning to use? If you get the Cd down to
0.20 or 0.15 that will help tremendously. Can you make changes to the
shape/belly pan?
If you send us the frontal area and Cd, then we can calculate the
power needed to push the air at 190MPH.
-Robert
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I need some input from the experts out there. What are the absolute >
minimums it will take in the form of batteries, motors, controllers, >
chargers, (all the essential EV stuff), to get a 3-4 year old Nextel >
cup car chassis with all required onboard equipment to a peak speed of
> 200 + MPH and an average of 190 MPH for one lap at Daytona? I know it
can be done but what is the best way?
Shawn Lawless
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Yo Zick!!!
You dare expose your self to the EV crowd...
Man I warned ya!!
Tell us we will get to racing again.. this time with some calm cool racing
efforts.
I have the breakers....Need a set of BFG Drag Radials
And we need a solid torque converter...We can launch harder without the 3800
Stall that is in there.
Umm Shawn.. Jon... we really need to tell the Story behind "JeagerBomber"
Zick... And Tequila Jacks... I did a voice interview with Visforvoltage Ken
Trough. You and Shawn need to tell your side of it.
Why it is that after 4 drinks Rich gets the Keys a hour later...
I turn Green they get messed up... I dry out...we get batteries moved and
charged... Yes we can stuff batteries in the MG car with most of the team
Hammered.
All of them in your office... that's gotta be one Big office....
I am really Glad we could do this for Milwaukee... alot of us out here on
the EV list would like to make the Message a bit clearer.. and get you guys
to run the car as a EV.
First...Lion powered EVs are going to happen soon, and many are trying right
now. Keep in mind the T-zero was Lion powered. About half a dozzen folks
here on the list have done or are doing Lion
powered rigs. So... I our life time like this year.. there will many more
Lion EVs.
You tell me I can drive and repower the MG Car.. I will be there it's that
simple.
And... we need to get through folks minds that the Car we did.. was not our
choice or even a very good one at that. Clearly we need a better way to
charge all them Lions.. but Well we are kinda stuck on the single charger
single batter block. How do we Address 384 Bricks???? without blistering
finger tips.
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro.
Madman
----- Original Message -----
From: "J Z" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, April 12, 2006 5:51 AM
Subject: Re: Monster Garage
> Hello Everyone,
> This is my first time posting here on the list, but I have been
following the forum since January (when I first met Shawn and Rich). I'd
like to first start off by saying it's a great site and forum and am quite
impressed with some of the conversations that go on here. I would also like
to take the opportunity to thank Shawn, Rich, Ron, and Danny for all the
work they did during the build. There is NO WAY the build would have been a
success without any one of them. Everyone had a key part to complete in
order to get the car to move. Great job everyone!!!!!! A lot of skill and
hard work...and some just dumb luck, made it a great show.
>
> Now, let me give you the feedback from a lot of Milwaukee employees.
There was basically two comments...1) Everyone that I talked to was very
very surprised that a EV could go that fast!! 2) They gained a huge respect
for the hazards involved and the care and time needed to build such an
electric monster.
> Now, this is from people that have NO exposure to Ev's. Great PR for
the EV industry.
>
> Ryan, to answer your questions below, cause I'm sure Shawn and Rich's
fingers are getting tired:
> 1) The challenge came up unexpectedly (due to the car making an
appearance at the Builders Show in Orlando) and it was hard enough to get
the team back together in time to charge and reload the batteries. Plus
West Coast still had to paint the dam thing.
> 2) The parking lot "parading" actually turned out better then I thought
it would. At that point, do to a wiring issue, we were running only half
power. Which we were not too happy with but it turned out to be a good
thing because the tires were rubbing on the body. If we would have been at
full power, I'm sure the tires would have blown. We got lucky on that
one...right guys!!!
> 3) The tires...we didn't have a say in. That was what Jesse brought us
so that is what we put on the car. The tires were the least of our worries
at that point.
> 4) As for the car as it stands today, it draws a very good crowd where
ever it goes. Everyone is impressed that it went so fast and can't believe
it is powered by tool batteries. It is one of the most successful brand
events Milwaukee has done. So far the car has not run since the last
event...butttttttt...you never know...there still might be a few more races
in the beast...right Shawn!!
> Right now I can't seem to get the car out of Marketing's hands cause I
know I would really like to see it go 100mph. All the batteries and
chargers are still in my office so the fuel is ready!!!
>
> Ok....sorry so long winded. I'll stop talking now.
> Jon "Jagarbomber" Zick
>
>
>
> Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I liked the show and was glad to see it and that the car was
> completed. I've seen every Monster Garage episode ever made, and I
> was completely unaware of all the goading that apparently went on with
> the film crew, etc. Maybe since this was the last episode(so I've
> heard..), they went all out and didn't hold back(nothing to lose?)?
>
> Even though "hindsight is always 20/20", just for future reference in
> case something similar ever arises:
>
> What was the situation where they wouldn't let you take the car to the
> track in the days or weeks before the race to dial it in?
>
> It would have been nice if the power would have been cranked up so
> when Jesse was parading around the parking lot on the first drive, he
> could have been doing burnouts and donuts and really been able to show
> what electrics can do..
>
> Also it would have been nice if some real tires, or at least some
> decent back tires could have been used so that car would have ran at
> least consistent 13's and beat that Mopar every time... Amazing it
> did run that 14.5 after all those previous runs it had been through
> though! Those batteries had a lot more in them then I thought they
> would have. (now if we could buy those batteries at a fair price...)
> Considering the weight of that car, and all the wheel spin(time
> wasted) and STILL running a 14.5(remember all the previous runs on
> that charge), that car had a LOT more potential. It would be nice if
> Milwaukee would dial it in and get some really nice times from it.
>
> The good news is, there are some really serious street beasts in the
> works, and a certain electric rail car is about to set some more
> records...
>
> A new generation of high performance electrics.. not to mention the
> potential new age of batteries on the verge of being a reality. The
> future of EV's is bright. Remember this Jesse, the business you own
> and run revolves around the availability of gasoline. How many
> Choppers will you sell if there is no gasoline? When you get bored,
> consider building an electric Chopper with the uncertain and
> unguaranteed future in mind..
>
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I just got through converting a 1989 Isuzu and I do
believe it is ths same as a Chevy Luv.
Tom
----- Original Message -----
From: "Pestka, Dennis J" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, April 12, 2006 8:09 AM
Subject: RE: Chevy Luv burnouts?
I considered a Luv before I found my 65 Datsun.
It looked to be a good candidate for conversion.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I recall it was built by Isuzu.
I picked up a Haynes repair manual on it at a flea market.
If you end up finding one, let me know and I will send it to you.
Dennis
Elsberry, MO
-----Original Message-----
From: Ryan Stotts [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, April 11, 2006 11:34 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Chevy Luv burnouts?
DM3 wrote:
Has anyone converted a 1979 chevy luv pu for drag racing?
I think it will work fine.
As far as I know, that particular model truck hasn't been converted yet:
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/chevrolet.html
Don't be afraid to be the first.
was wondering how much of the stock drive train can be used.
For drag racing with good tires? None of it. The tranny, drive shaft,
and
differential will fail if you have enough power from the motor and good
enough traction. If you never have good traction, then it might(should)
take it.
It's not a big deal though if the stock parts aren't up to it. Are you
going to run a transmission or direct drive? This way you can get a good
transmission or forgo the transmission. In either case, a custom drive
shaft will be needed. There are at least four companies that can fab you
a
custom width differential(Ford 9"?) with correctly positioned spring
mounts
that will bolt right in.
Also, are the GE 9 inch motors too heavy for the amount of torque
they deliver?
Not really. It weighs what it weighs.
Has anyone paired some up?
I think the monster garage car had two GE's coupled together. Dennis gets
good results with just one though(custom motor mods..)..
http://www.currenteliminator.net/
--
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.1.385 / Virus Database: 268.4.1/309 - Release Date: 4/11/2006
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Not a chance...
500 Hp for 5 minutes is AC induction water cooled motor and controller
territory.
I would look at the drives in the Bowling Green Formula Lightning's car.
Dc maybe we can peak out at 500 HP, with a twin stack of 12 inch motors. But
Even Dennis pales at the thought of 5 full minutes at full scream.
This is serious engineering territory, not a slapped together Dc hand
grenade motor effort.
Lithium battery is a must...Like 500 lbs to 750 lbs of them. The MG cars
pack could do this.. But the weight of the copper and wood boxes needs to be
cut in half, and we need to charge in a sane manner, Not ripping up the pack
every 10 laps.
The "Zick flash Bulbs" might need a upgrade...
Shawn.. the MG car maybe peaked at 500 Hp..about 1/2 a second after the
tranny grabbed 2nd gear. You need to run that hard for 2 laps at full
speed.
This might be doable.. But it's going to be rather Spendy.
I hope you have a healthy check book....Really healthy, and about 3 months
and a Crew that had the Talent that we did at MG. Hello Ron and Danny???
Hey I need to get the Battery management system running... I have new code
to test today... Yea... I have working samples...
Goldie will be a test bead for 1000 amp loads.
Madman
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tim Humphrey" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, April 12, 2006 12:26 PM
Subject: RE: Is a 200 mph Electric Cup Car possible ?
Are you saying it needs to run just one lap?
And that lap needs to average out to 190?
Of course it will have to run at least two laps.... even a cup car needs a
whole lap just to get to speed ~190. But then again, Daytona is a restrictor
plate track, so they only have about 600-650hp available instead of the
usual 750-800hp.
The biggest problem you will probably face is also the cup teams' biggest
problem... how do I reduce the aero-drag without becoming airborne?
No wait...heat might be your biggest problem 600hp for 2.5 miles for a
minute is quite a bit more heat to dissipate than 250hp for 13 seconds.
I would seriously think about starting with a 500volt dc motor, and go UP
from there to keep the currents down. How about 1000volts of V-28's. And
lets keep it real simple...back to contactor controllers.
How many laps are required??
Stay Charged!
Hump
Original Message -----------------------
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, April 12, 2006 2:38 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Is a 200 mph Electric Cup Car possible ?
It would be a "standard" cup car (such as a Monte Carlo) from a few years
ago.
-----Original Message-----
From: Robert Baertsch <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Sent: Wed, 12 Apr 2006 11:02:03 -0700
Subject: Re: Is a 200 mph Electric Cup Car possible ?
Shawn,
What shape body are you planning to use? If you get the Cd down to 0.20 or
0.15 that will help tremendously. Can you make changes to the shape/belly
pan?
If you send us the frontal area and Cd, then we can calculate the power
needed to push the air at 190MPH.
-Robert
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> I need some input from the experts out there. What are the absolute >
minimums it will take in the form of batteries, motors, controllers, >
chargers, (all the essential EV stuff), to get a 3-4 year old Nextel > cup
car chassis with all required onboard equipment to a peak speed of > 200 +
MPH and an average of 190 MPH for one lap at Daytona? I know it
> can be done but what is the best way?
>
> Shawn Lawless
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
3800.
We wasted all that bottom end torque that only a pair of 1800 amp driven
Series wound 12 inch motors can make.
I expect that we could have gotten close to Wheel stands if we had a solid
connection to the motors.
That woulda woken up Jesse.
Maybe it was a good thing...
Jesse basicly has no respect for any drive train..
Like Zick said.. if we had gotten the battery packs in right...The first
time... Jesse would have shredded the rear tires and rims on his run at the
Boeing parking lot. As it was it ruined one tire and did a nasty job on one
rim. It squatted so hard that the Old shock mounts hit the tires and rims.
We had the ace Wrench at West Coast choppers. Rick as I recall blast them
out the day of the challenge. While we were adding a second pair of 0/4
Cables....to the main feed to the controllers. Coulda used even more...
Madman
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ryan Stotts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, April 12, 2006 1:10 PM
Subject: Re: Fwd: Monster Garage
> Rich Rudman wrote:
>
> > With a solid torque converter.
>
> Just curious, what stall speed was the converter?
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have 4 that work.. and
couple of Dead ones.. Nope.. I know what's inside....
I can't just show all of Zick's tricks.
Madman
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tom Shay" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, April 12, 2006 1:20 PM
Subject: Milwaukee Tool Battery
> Watching Monster Garage got me interested in the 28-volt
> lithium-ion tool batteries that were used. Using several
> hundred to drive a full-size car or truck is totally absurd,
> but using one or two of these batteries for a scooter or
> bicycle might be a winning idea.
>
> Has anyone seen detailed information about these batteries
> (dimensions, weight, ampere and amp-hour capacity, etc)?
>
> I think I'd enjoy having a 28-volt cordless Sawzall. A Sawzall is
> one of my favorite tools. A Sawzall can cut almost anything
> that needs cutting around home, yard or garage. I've used
> one to prune trees and bushes. Once I cut a Chevrolet Vega
> in half and then into smaller pieces just to prove I could and to
> practice using the saw. I probably won't buy one because the
> price is formidable-- the saw with a charger and a good collection
> of blades would probably cost about $500.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
You both may be right. Andre' is saying all else being equal, to move
you at the same speed with different gear ratio will take the same power.
Problem is with different ratio everything else is no longer being
equal. Does your calc takes efficiency and acceleration rate into account?
Victor
Roland Wiench wrote:
How come my watt/hr indicators show that I need more wattage with a 5.57:1
overall ratio than if I am at a 19.5:1 ratio?
If I am at 50 mph, the battery amperes is at 180 amps and at 25 mph its at
40 amps.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "Andre' Blanchard" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, April 12, 2006 8:52 AM
Subject: Re: Is a 200 mph Electric Cup Car possible ?
At 09:14 AM 4/12/2006, you wrote:
<< snip >>
As the ratio is decrease, you will need more power to attain the speed.
<< snip >>
Roland
Wrong, it will take more motor torque but all else being equal the power
remains the same.
__________
Andre' B. Clear Lake, Wi.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Wed, 12 Apr 2006 09:22:34 -0600, "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
>How come my watt/hr indicators show that I need more wattage with a 5.57:1
>overall ratio than if I am at a 19.5:1 ratio?
>
>If I am at 50 mph, the battery amperes is at 180 amps and at 25 mph its at
>40 amps.
Because the I-squared-R losses go up with higher motor current. Input
power is irrelevant to the vehicle power demand. The vehcile power
demand remains the same regardless of the gearing, all else remaining
the same.
John
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.johngsbbq.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds.-Ralph Waldo Emerson
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Wed, 12 Apr 2006 08:14:17 -0600, "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
>
>It is known that by experiment, that for a overall gear ratio of 4:1, that
>it takes 600 watts to move 100 lbs of weight at 50 mph using a front profile
>of a VW Bug.
>
>Therefore for a double in weight increase to 200 lbs, it doubles the power
>needed to 1200 watts.
No. Weight has no theoretical effect and almost no real world effect
on power required at a constant speed. The only effect is a little
more frictional loss in the tires.
>
>Next, you will have to determine the square foot front profile of your car
>and calculated the air drag. A small model of the car can be used and put
>in a wind tunnel. We used a large farm tractor tire with a fan in it.
>Placing the model inside measure the air flow difference in front and rear
>of the model.
>
>To measure the air resistance in the wind tunnel, use a wing type foil in
>front of the model and another in the rear that can pivot. A extension rods
>ran outside with a pointer to a protractor. The difference between the
>front and rear air flow was than calculated. This is how we done it back in
>the 40's. Today, there should be a computer program to do this.
None of that crap is necessary. The frontal area and Cd of a Winston
Cup (sorry, I just can't use the N word....) are extremely well known.
>
>As the speed doubles, its takes four times the power. For example:
No. For a doubling in speed, the power requirement goes up EIGHT
times. Power required changes as the cube of velocity. A close
approximation of the power requirement is as follows:
HP = (Cd * A * (V^3))/150,000
Cd is dimensionless
A is frontal area in sq ft
V is velocity in MPH.
150,000 harmonizes all the units.
This formula assumes no major changes in turbulence and moderate
Reynolds number - good enough for this discussion.
A NASCAR car is fast enough that high Reynolds flow has to be dealt
with. Fortunately someone has quantified the effect.
http://www.vu.union.edu/~keinathb/MER033/NASCAR/index.htm
(This took about 30 seconds' of googling for "coefficient of drag for
a nascar car" to find that URL.)
If we use the next to lowest drag shown in the results, Cd = 0.7 (yea,
winston cup cars are pigs.) and assume a 15 sq ft frontal area, the
math works out to 560 horsepower. That's pretty much what "they say"
a restrictor NASCAR motor makes for Daytona so the frontal area
estimate looks pretty good.
If I move to the middle of the graph of Cd vs Reynolds number here:
http://www.vu.union.edu/~keinathb/MER033/NASCAR/results.htm
which shows a Cd of 1+ (!), then the HP to go 200 mph is 800. My
little Cd calculator stops 1.0 so that's what I used.
Roland, it would have taken you oh, 15 minutes to find this info but
instead you posted completely incorrect crap. That so much of this
happens on this list is quite annoying.
Second conclusion: If you want to showcase an EV race car, a Winston
Cup car is NOT the way to go. I found elsewhere during my googling
that a Champ car has a Cd of about 0.25 which is quite high relative
to mundane street cars. That's why it takes 600+ HP to go 250 mph. Of
course, they trade some drag for lots of downforce.
Shawn, if you want to show off an EV at Daytona, the best vehicle
would be one of the low Cd factory electrics or hybrids. There is a
reason GM used a slightly (body) modified EV1 to set the LSR. Maybe
take the drivetrain out of a Prius, cram in lots o'batteries and the
motor and controller of your choice and head off.
Your biggest problem will remain tires. No one appreciates what the
high banking does to tires until he's actually raced there, myself
included. Our first few times there with a motorcycle resulted in the
bike limping to the pits with shredded tires.
Oh yeah, if anyone is interested in automotive aerodynamics, I HIGHLY
recommend this book:
http://www.bentleypublishers.com/gallery.htm?code=GAER&galleryId=773
I have it. It is one of the more dog-eared books in my library.
John
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.johngsbbq.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds.-Ralph Waldo Emerson
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Wed, 12 Apr 2006 17:48, Tom Shay wrote:
Has anyone seen detailed information about these batteries
(dimensions, weight, ampere and amp-hour capacity, etc)?
According to the website www.v28power.com it is 7 4v 3 ah cells.
Weight is listed at 2.27 pounds from vendors,
So 5 in series gives 140v 3 ah for about 11 pounds.
30 sets of that in parallel to get to 90ah - 330 pounds. Not too bad.
But at a best price of 117.43, that's $38,610. Ouchie.
No doubt the technologies of the Lithium cells can
Be done cheaper without the tool packaging and smart tech, but it would
take at least 90% reduction to be competitive.
Given this is the first year, probably 5-10 years to get there
John F. Norton
via T-Mobile Sidekick
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Last year I put a new set of Group 24, sealed Deka Dominator batteries
in my Solectria E-10 pickup truck. During the break-in period, my wife
took it out on the highway for a spur-of-the-moment trip, forgetting
about the break-in current and amp-hour limits, and experienced some
pretty serious power loss on a 28-mile round trip. She had such a loss
of power on the way home, she thought she wasn't going to make it but
she did. After that, we saw pretty limited range and I assume something
happened to a couple of the batteries. I suppose it's possible to
damage the batteries by drawing on them too hard during the break-in
period. Well, I decided to check into it later and we made do with the
limited range.
A couple of months ago, when I plugged the truck in after a short trip,
it started charging and several hours later, when it should have been
finished, it was still charging. Something was wrong, and I figured it
was related to the power loss, but I didn't have the time to
troubleshoot it and unplugged the charger. We went on vacation after
that and I decided not to leave the thing plugged in, figuring there was
a battery problem.
Last week, I attempted a charge and once again it wouldn't terminate and
I found out why -- The charger was oscillating back and forth between
the bulk and overcharge phases because the overcharge current allowed
the voltage to drop back below the threshold for that charging phase. I
did some more tests today, took the semi-charged truck out for a drive
and found I couldn't get more than 100A out of the batteries, and after
about 2 miles I couldn't get more than 50A out of them. Definitely not
good.
SO... I'm looking at replacing the pack again. Not what I want to do,
but I'm not too nuts about sifting through 24 batteries and trying to
guess which ones aren't trash.
The Solectria vehicles have always had sealed lead-acid batteries for
the sheer convenience of not having to water the things. I'm now
thinking of going with floodeds because it seems like the sealed
batteries have some real problems with lifespan. The previous set of
Dominators only lasted about 4 years, and a big part of that was with
limited range. I'd like to get some suggestions from you guys as to
what I might be able to put in there that would give me some decent
range, power and lifespan. Valence makes group 24 Li-Ions but I'm not
made of money so that option is out, unfortunately.
The truck uses, as I said, group 24 form-factor batteries. There are
two strings of 12 batteries, with the strings connected in parallel so
that the current demands aren't so bad on each string. The charger is
fully programmable so I can reprogram it to work with the floodeds. I'd
like to minimize watering or at least make it as easy as possible.
Any suggestions appreciated.
--
Thomas Hudson
http://portdistrict5.org -- 5th District Aldermanic Website
http://portev.org -- Electric Vehicles, Solar Power & More
http://portgardenclub.org -- Port Washington Garden Club
http://portlightstation.org -- Light Station Restoration
http://klanky.com -- Animation Projects
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Remember that the NASCAR cars have nothing in common with the stock car
other than vaguely looking like it. They use a special body on a custom
chassis, so should weigh much less than the stock version. You should be
able to seal up the grill to get better aerodynamics since you won't
generate near the heat that an ICE does. If you watch NASCAR, notice that
they partially seal up the grill with tape and only take off what's
necessary to keep it from overheating. First, you will need to get the car
you will be using, then go from there. You'll probably won't need any more
horsepower than the 100 mph drag racers, but will need to go over 5 miles
(assuming you're on a 2.5 mile oval, I don't remember what Daytona is), so
will need a lot more battery, and may have overheating problems the quarter
milers don't have. It shouldn't be too difficult if you have plenty of
money to throw at it. If you have a choice of retired cars, get the one
with the best aero.
Dave
----Original Message Follows----
From: Robert Baertsch <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Is a 200 mph Electric Cup Car possible ?
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2006 15:12:59 -0700
Assuming the stock 2002 Monte Carlo has a cd = 0.33 and for 1998 the Cd =
0.35
I'll take 0.33 and a frontal area of 25 sq. ft and curb weight of 3000lbs.
At 190 mph you will need 378 hp for air drag and rolling drag of 128 hp.
Not likely with an electric.
If you drop the Cd to 0.21, then you only need 241hp plus the rolling drag,
much more possible for an electric.
-Robert
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
It would be a "standard" cup car (such as a Monte Carlo) from a few years
ago.
-----Original Message-----
From: Robert Baertsch <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Sent: Wed, 12 Apr 2006 11:02:03 -0700
Subject: Re: Is a 200 mph Electric Cup Car possible ?
Shawn, What shape body are you planning to use? If you get the Cd down to
0.20 or 0.15 that will help tremendously. Can you make changes to the
shape/belly pan? If you send us the frontal area and Cd, then we can
calculate the power needed to push the air at 190MPH. -Robert
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I need some input from the experts out there. What are the absolute >
minimums it will take in the form of batteries, motors, controllers, >
chargers, (all the essential EV stuff), to get a 3-4 year old Nextel > cup
car chassis with all required onboard equipment to a peak speed of > 200 +
MPH and an average of 190 MPH for one lap at Daytona? I know it
can be done but what is the best way? Shawn Lawless
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Nick Austin wrote:
On Wed, Apr 12, 2006 at 09:50:57AM -0700, Stefan T. Peters wrote:
The Honda Civic HX (non-hybrid) with their CVT (aka "Honda Multimatic")
has been sold in the US since 1996... no reliability issues have
appeared so far.
You must admit, it sure looks like a lot of failure prone moving parts
in the diagram on that page.
Perhaps they found a way to make it more robust?
Well... all the automakers found a way to make this reliable:
http://www.evforge.net/pub/index.php?code=11448872752KUKJTRRU1
(early borg wagner 3 speed automatic)
And Honda (and now almost everyone else) figured out a way to make this
mess reliable, even when many doubted it could ever be:
http://www.evforge.net/pub/index.php?code=11448872752KUKJTRRU1
(early production variable-valve timing engine)
So, yeah, lots-o-parts. But what's new? I would be willing to believe
that current materials technology & engineering can provide us with an
efficient, durable, lightweight CVT (notice I didn't say
"affordable")... which the big H has evidently demonstrated.
~ Peanut Gallery ~
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Stefan T. Peters wrote:
And Honda (and now almost everyone else) figured out a way to make
this mess reliable, even when many doubted it could ever be:
http://www.evforge.net/pub/index.php?code=11448872752KUKJTRRU1
(early production variable-valve timing engine)
Oops!
That file link is incorrect, here is the right one:
http://www.evforge.net/pub/index.php?code=1144887287TPO2SPMEGE
(early production variable-valve timing engine)
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the question I have for you John is are you touching JUST the leads together
or are you touching them with your fingers and squeezing them together?
Your body has resistance and will affect the readings. Also, the meter only
reads consistently if the battery is in good condition. The easy way to
tell if your leads are good or not is to use one at a time and check your
results.
Jody
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of John
Sent: Tuesday, April 11, 2006 9:55 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: DMM Question
Hope this isn't considered off topic.
I got myself a used Fluke 87 DMM off of ebay and I have a basic
operation question.
When I turn the dial to the resistance/conductivity (Omega symbol) and
touch the leads together I get unexpected (to me at least) results and
inconsistent results.
More often than not the meter display runs through different numbers
(including different scales when in auto ranging) and does not settle
down within 5-10 seconds.
Other times I have had it settle down around 1.5 K Omega
My intuition is that I have one or more of the following problems:
1) Bad Meter
2) Bad Leads
3) Incompetent Operator
Thanks
John O'Connor
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I wonder if anyone on the list is familiar with the 3Kva Honda Generator on
ebay - item 7609509034.
It says there are two 110v sockets but I want to know if I can series these
up to produce 220volts or whether they are simply two parallel sockets.
I would have though Honda would have made just one type of generator for
both European and the US market where they could run the output windings as
two separate 110volt outputs or one 220volt output.
A unit like this would be a great range extender for my van
(www.bedfordev.flyer.co.uk) which I could put in the back with the batteries
when I want to go further than 50miles.
John
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> Yo Zick!!!
> we need a solid torque converter...We can launch harder without the 3800
> Stall that is in there.
> All of them in your office... that's gotta be one Big office....
> You tell me I can drive and re-power the MG Car.. I will be there it's that
> simple.
Add this torque converter to your battery collection in your office so
it will be ready for when the car sees the track next:
http://www.jegs.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/CategoryDisplay?catalogId=10002&storeId=10001&categoryId=18147&parentCategoryId=10723&langId=-1
PN# 741050
http://tciauto.com/circle_track/circle_track_converters.htm
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8:55 P.M.
Tom,
I have good experience so far with Interstate DCS-75BT 12V AGM Group 24
batteries: http://www.ibsa.com/www_2001/content/products/specs/dcs_75bt.pdf
I am using only 8 of them for a 96V system in a Skoda hatchback (similar
size and shape to older VW Golf), at first used alone (quite high current
drain....), and since last year with 28 cells of 100 A-hr Thunder Sky
lithium ion working as a team.
However, my recommendation does not extend to to running them down flat and
then reversing some cells - didn't try that yet and prefer not to go quite
that far.....
Does your truck have regulators or BMS of some sort?
I also used 7 of their little brother DCS-33 working hard with Thunder Sky
lithium ion cells to provide peak current and regen absorption.
This DCS series has a claimed high cycles life.
I am importing now a shipment of golf-car sized 6V and 8V AGM (sealed)
batteries, plus 12V 27 A-hr AGM batteries for use as aux batteries, from
China to try. They should arrive in a bit over a month. If I am as happy
with the batteries as with the support received so far, I will plan to stock
them and let the list know.
Best Regards,
Doug
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tom Hudson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, April 12, 2006 6:47 PM
Subject: Group 24 battery options
Last year I put a new set of Group 24, sealed Deka Dominator batteries in
my Solectria E-10 pickup truck.
snipped
Any suggestions appreciated.
--
Thomas Hudson
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On 12 Apr 2006 at 14:48, Roland Wiench wrote:
> I install a v-6
> engine that was couple with a in and out clutch to the electric motor.
> The accelerator control system could auto select between the engine or
> electric or combination of the both which is a series type of hybrid.
I would call that a parallel hybrid.
The way I learned it, a series hybrid has a fueled source of electrical energy,
typically an engine driven generator (genset). A parallel hybrid couples the
engine directly to the drivetrain. Your setup sounds like the latter.
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The same amount of energy as in a gas powered car?
or about 4x what the zombie has (2x speed = 4x power)
There should be lots of data that can get you torque and rpm data for
that speed,drag, application.
Even the gas milage can be used as a rough indicator of the amount of
power you will need on board.
what is it they say? 1000Lb of lead = about 1 gallon of gas? or was it
1/2 gallon?
Then lets take 2 laps or 5 mile range at about
(50 laps on 22 gallons or 125miles/22 gallons ) 5.6 miles per gallon
so 1 gallon of gas equivilant. This is probably an underestimate by a
factor of 2 or 3 as your one lap will be all the accelerating lap
2000 lbs of lead is gonna have it's on issues at 200mph so I recommend,
caugh, Lipoly from KOKAM America
2000 lbs of high amp lead is 50 orbitals with maybe 34ah at 1hr rate,
You will be using it in under a min. but using the 1 hr rate for
comparison is 50*12*34= 20Kwh
20kwh of kokam could be 60 100ah cells(56*3.7*100 = 20,720wh)
5.95lb each or 333 Lb pack that can line the floor. teice this, using
200ah cells for added current capacity may be needed or
! a hybrid pack. 330 Lb of li-poly for the range and another 300 of the
stiffist lead you can find.
Assuming you have the power on board, 700-800hp 1 hp ~= 750 watts
600KW
if we consider a zilla 2k as 1900amps peak and 700 amps continous on the
207V pack, 393K about 1/2 the peak needed
2 zilla 2K's and 4 - 9" motors
If minimum cost, then
1 zilla 1k for around the pits and the first 5 feet
then SCR's to go from 4 series to 2+2 to all parallel and a go-nogo button
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Tom Shay wrote:
> Has anyone seen detailed information about these batteries
> (dimensions, weight, ampere and amp-hour capacity, etc)?
At the end of one of the isles at Home Depot, there is a Milwaukee 28
Volt display and you can actually physically handle the batteries and
chargers there. It's a nice little battery. It's a shame about the
price though..
Let's say we all had several hundred of these batteries in our cars.
Is it possible to charge them in series string of 300+ volts using a
single on-board charger?
Is Milwaukee interested in sponsoring a few cars for R&D and
promotional efforts in the field of Electric Cars? They could become
a major supplier in this market and even offer lithium to OEM's
currently making hybrids(which are only one step away from being
purely electric..).
Send Rich Rudman some so he can power both his cars and develop a
charger for these batteries. See if Dennis and Wayland want any.
Anyone else have a vehicle that could seriously benefit from having
these batteries and could provide promotional, marketing, or R&D
efforts to Milwaukee in exchange for them?
Does Milwaukee want to be the battery responsible for the first
electric running 7's in the 1/4? How about 6's? Or do you want
another battery manufacturer's name to be listed when these records
are set(7's this summer. 6's soon after. Could be sooner with your
help! And it won't cost you very much either!)
See if he's interested...
http://www.currenteliminator.net/
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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