EV Digest 5392
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Switched Capacitor Equalization of Long Strings WAS: Some problemsto
solve
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Bucking in first gear
by David Brandt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: My Ghia - Was: Re: longest range?
by "Evan Tuer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Battery comparison- Thanks for the answers.
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Honda 600 (in Texas?)Other Stuff.
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Battery comparison
by "Andre' Blanchard" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) RE: Albright Contactor rework
by "Bill Dennis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Light bulbs plus zeners
by "Mike Phillips" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Round Trip Range on 48 volts
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Fw: Tickets for Saturday night "Who Killed the Electric Car" in San
Francisco
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: longest range?
by "steve clunn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Honda 600 (in Texas?)
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Honda 600 (in Texas?)
by Mark Hastings <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Honda 600 (in Texas?)
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Neon (Lamp, not John) Questions
by "Bill Dennis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Switched Capacitor Equalization of Long Strings WAS: Some
problemstosolve
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Tickets for Saturday night "Who Killed the Electric Car" in San
Francisco
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Switched Capacitor Equalization of Long Strings WAS: Some
problemstosolve
by "Mike Phillips" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Lead prices
by "Mike Phillips" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Neon (Lamp, not John) Questions
by "Tom Shay" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Arctic Leash
by Patrick Clarke <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Light bulbs plus zeners
by Christopher Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: Lead prices
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
24) Re: Honda 600 (in Texas?)
by "Death to All Spammers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Re: Have been collecting range data, how about acceleration data
by "Mike Phillips" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
To make active balance work, you need to keep pumping energy from the
battery with lower terminal voltage (but possessing more Ah) to
the battery with higher terminal voltage, do it for some time.
Therefore mere connecting in parallel won't work (in reasonable
time). It sure will somewhat work for 1V imbalances, but if you have
such difference between batteries, you have more serious issue than
just natural imbalance.
Victor
Now, batteries directly connected in parallel is better than even the
most perfect capacitive balancer can achieve. This should tell you how
weak the balancing action really is. It works -- but just barely.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I, too had a bucking problem with the solar electric escort I had for a
while. Before I rebuilt it, the potbox was mounted to a large plate
that also held the controller and contactor. Trouble was, the plate
was mounted to the top of the transmission on the drivers side, and the
passenger side engine mount. When you acellerated, the torque would
move the motor/tranny and everything that was attached, including the
potbox!
So even if you held your foot still, the throttle would oscillate back
and forth. This was especially exciting in reverse!
The first thing I did when rebuilding it was to put the potbox on the
firewall. No more problems with oscillation or bucking.
David Brandt
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 4/21/06, Michaela Merz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> So, well ..
>
> While I am cruisin' around with my 144V S-10, I still have that little
> something on my mind. That little something is a beautiful red Ghia
> convertible.
I've seen it mentioned on the list that a Karmann Ghia can consume as
little as 150wh/mile. I don't know at what speeds and how realistic
it is to achieve that, but if it is true, then you theoretically only
need 15kWh of usable stored energy, in a light enough package.
You've looked at Saft nicads before for your pickup, but I think they
could work well here. The pack in my van has 27 MRE5-100s, storing
about 16kWh and weighs 350kG (just the modules). The 162V pack would
work with a DC system (set the controller's battery limit to 200A or
250A) - this would give between 30 and 40kW for accelleration and hill
climbing, which should be adequate on a light and aerodynamic car.
An alternative is the Zebra battery, for example the Z23 which
provides 17.6kWh and weighs only 155kG, although it comes packaged in
one large box which might be difficult to integrate in that car.
The Zebra battery also provides a higher terminal voltage which would
be ideal with a high efficiency AC system such as the Siemens ones
that Metricmind sells, and this would also provide regen and allow a
greater peak power - since the battery is also lighter this
combination would give much higher performance.
Or, hold out for a lithium-ion system with a proven BMS. That would
certainly have the capability, shouldn't cost much more than the
options above, the only uncertain thing is the cycle life. And the
fact that you still can't buy one yet :)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Cor van de Water" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Friday, April 21, 2006 12:05 AM
Subject: RE: Battery comparison- Thanks for the answers.
> Roland,
>
> Is this for your El Camino?
> 180V = 15x 12V in series
> Evalbum says you currently use 245Ah 6V x30
Hello Con Van,
The batteries I have now in my El Camino, are now 260 AH 6v x 30 made by
Trojan. I used to have 300 AH 2V x 90 industrial cells, like the Exide
Tudor type (sounds like that spelling).
Way back then, these cells cost me $30.00 each or $2700.00. Today, they
cost over $9000.00. We have a local Trojan dealer, and he allow me to
purchase the Trojan batteries my self from the distributor which was over
360 miles from me. I arrange all the delivery, testing and acceptance for
these batteries. Got them for $78.00 each plus the battery truck took my
old batteries which I got $5.00 each for them.
So my overall cost is $73.00 each or $2190.00
I am putting feelers out to different battery companies, even if I do not
need then yet for another 2,4 or even 6 years. Hawkers cost for a 228 AH
Odyssey AGM battery is $788.88 each. This would be $23,666 for 30 of these
parallel for a usable 1 hour discharge of at least 300 AH.
This was a WEB sales person and not a battery tech, so they will see if I
can get a group rate, I said if I got 50% off, these type of batteries are
not cost effective for me.
Any way, I been staying away from a seal battery, because I want to charge a
battery from 50% to 80% in with 20 minutes using a Hydrocell system like I
did with the 2 volt industrial cells that lasted me 10 years. I can do this
type of charging with the Trojans 260 AH, which are now going 4 years now,
and they are still perfect.
Roland
>
> My AGM batteries are 12V 110A for $85
> If you again want 30 batteries like you have now,
> this would cost you $2550 and give you 220Ah
> and a 1-hour discharge usable capacity of 160 Ah.
>
> Were you quoted Lithium batteries or single battery
> quantity suggested retail prices?
>
> Regards,
>
> Cor van de Water
> Systems Architect
> Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
> Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
> Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
> Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
> Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Behalf Of Roland Wiench
> Sent: Thursday, April 20, 2006 7:15 PM
> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> Subject: Re: Battery comparison- Thanks for the answers.
>
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Neon John" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
> Sent: Thursday, April 20, 2006 7:29 PM
> Subject: Re: Battery comparison- Thanks for the answers.
>
>
> > On Thu, 20 Apr 2006 07:36:12 -0400, "Richard Acuti"
> > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> >
> > >Orbitals, Optimas and Hawkers make great performance batteries (read:
> > >high
> > >acceleration) because they can safely discharge at extremely high rates
> > >and
> > >have little voltage sag when they do. However, you -may- sacrifice
> > >range
> > >because they don't discharge as long.
> >
> > No. If one compares equal amp-hours between performance and flooded
> > batteries, the high performance batteries will go farther because the
> > Peukert effect is so much lower (implied in the very low internal
> > resistance that lets the performance batteries perform.)
> >
> > The major difference between performance and flooded batteries other
> > than performance is cost. Lots of difference.
>
>
> You got that right. I just contacted Hawkers and they wanted $24,000.00
> for a set of batteries that would be equal to a 300 AH PbA battery. There
> would be so many of them in parallel and series that I could not fit them
> in
>
> anyway. And that's not including the BMS. I can buy 10 sets of battery
> packs for that cost. Roland
> >
> > >Conventional floodeds and the NiCad's I asked questions about earlier
> > >have
> > >the advantage of cost and long discharge times which are good for
> > >range,
> > >but
> > >they don't tolerate high discharge rates well and experience voltage
> > >sag
> > >plus extra weight so I should expect slower acceleration.
> >
> > Separate floodeds and wet NiCads. Wet NiCads generally also fall in
> > the performance class, capable of large discharge rates for the AH
> > rating. NiCads do NOT sag unless very heavily loaded. About the only
> > disadvantages that I can think of with Nicads are a) cost, lots of
> > cost, and b) the necessity of frequent watering.
> >
> > If you have the money and room, then performance batteries are the way
> > to go. Either parallel or series them to get the watt-hours you need
> > for your required range.
> >
> > If you have even more money, NiCads are the way to go. Not only are
> > they capable of high performance but also, unless you REALLY abuse
> > them, they're a lifetime purchase. You'd be able to move the pack
> > from car to car.
> >
> > Of course, if you have more money than you know what to do with then
> > there is, of course, the various Li chemistries.
> >
> > John
> > ---
> > John De Armond
> > See my website for my current email address
> > http://www.johngsbbq.com
> > Cleveland, Occupied TN
> > Don't let your schooling interfere with your education-Mark Twain
> >
> >
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert Chew" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Friday, April 21, 2006 5:16 AM
Subject: RE: Honda 600 (in Texas?)
> Honday 600...very nice car. Twin cams and revs up to something like
11,000,
> crankshaft is supported on needle roller bearings, motorcycle technology.
>
> Awesome stuff...too good to convert i reackon.
>
> Anyone, converted any ferrari's? (geniune)
>
>
> >From: Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >Reply-To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> >To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> >Subject: RE: Honda 600 (in Texas?)
> >Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 23:10:08 -0700
> >
> >You mentioned the right alternative - Fiat.
> >There are millions of Fiats, unfortunately not so many in the US.
> >The Fiat 600 was comparable to this car, the reason for the
> >popularity of the 600 (CC = 0.6 liter engine) was that in some
> >countries you could drive without license in a car with engine
> >below 600 cc (not any more as far as I know).
> >
> >There are two Fiat 600 on Ebay, but neither is a good candidate
> >due to rust and such issues....
> >Back to the Bradley GT's?
> > Hi EVerybody;
In Japan, and maybe the Europe, there used to be a series of cars that
just don't exist in USA. Mini-cars? When I was stationed in Okinawa, hell,
40 years ago they had cute LITTLE cars, Mazda 800 comes to mind. Offered at
800 Bux US they were a 2 seat minicar. They were cute, I could pick up ether
end as a gag.Was temped to buy one, bring it home and convert it to
Electric, but got shipped out. As Uncle Sam was my travel agent, didn't have
much say.There were other tiny Japanese cars that would be ideal to convert,
think DECENT body Citicar size, I mean with doors and windows that worked!
I havent been overseas, since dinosours roamed the earth<g>!So I don't
know what is offered in , say, Okinawa , Japan or Taiwan. Going with the
trend that has brought us 3000 lb's VW's WITHOUT any batteries aboard. other
than a 12 volt SLI, I don't hold out much help. The guy in the UK, who was
griping about the price of Diseasel, and said that his Diesel got 55 mpg.
Musta been a small car!!? Smaller than the long lamented Diseasel Rabbits,
which could come darn close!
As Jerry D. points out , ya need to cut down on the dead weight. But for
the rest of us, that arent prepared to haul off and just build a car,
conversions are the way to go for now. Anybody travelred to Somewhere Else
that still use Minicars? Gees If somebody Over There could buy up clean
ones, strip out the ICE engine, ship them back here on a onzies twozies
basis? In small doses you would come under the Saftety Nazis' radar and NO
engine?Polution.
Just a mourning thought.
My Two Minis worth
Bob
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 05:59 PM 4/19/2006, you wrote:
<< snip >>
>>
>Basically, Optima's (now owned by Johnson Battery Systems) patent on the
>spiral wound AGM cell ran out, and Exide produced a clone.
I thought Gates (now Hawker) invented the spiral wound battery back in
the late 60s. I know that they showed up in equipment as standby
batteries as early as 1970.
<< snip >>
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.johngsbbq.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
Don't let your schooling interfere with your education-Mark Twain
Neon, as I am sure you know every 100 or 200 years old ideas seem to get
rediscovered and patented as new "inventions". The percentage of patents
that cover what I consider inventions is very small.
One Gaston Planté (as near as I can tell the dude who first invented the
lead lead acid battery) made his first cell from two lead sheets and
separators rolled up in a spiral in 1859.:)
http://www.corrosion-doctors.org/Biographies/PlantelBio.htm
__________
Andre' B. Clear Lake, Wi.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Dang, I've got two of these wired into my EV already, wired with 48V. I
don't have the facilities or expertise to rewind them, either. I wonder if
I should add a circuit to my KSI so that it won't all the contactors to
close until after the controller is precharged.
Bill Dennis
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Neon John
Sent: Thursday, April 20, 2006 10:46 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Albright Contactor rework
Y'all may remember the group purchase on the Albright SW200A-678
contactors with the 56 volt coils that was organized last year. I
bought 8 (and sure wish I'd bought more :-)
I finally got time today to take the solenoid apart and compute the
new winding for 12 volt nominal service. Following is an excerpt from
my shop log book detailing the work.
Before I did anything, I tested the contactor as-found. I was not
impressed. With almost 53 volts (48volt pack on trickle) on the coil,
the armature just sorta sidled into place. Not the snap that we
expect of a high current contactor. I tested a couple more just to
make sure I didn't get a fluke. I didn't. I could just imagine these
contacts gliding listlessly closed into non-pre-charged controller
capacitors. The fireball should be entertaining, at least.
This was an unsatisfactory condition so after poking around with a
dynamometer (in this context, a spring-scale-like device for measuring
force) to see just what kind of starting force was generated by the
solenoid, I decided to design for 4X the starting force. That meant
about 4X the ampere-turns as the original coil.
The frame of the solenoid is staked together during manufacture.
Disassembly required I grind off the stakes and carefully lever the
frame apart. Once the frame was apart, the blue outer plastic sleeve
came off easily after I unsoldered the wires (photos on my web site
later) to expose the windings. Fortunately these were random-wound
bobbins without any potting compound. What follows is from my log
book.
John
-----------------------
04/20/06
Stock coil ------------------------------
At 51.4 volts, 225ma flows, computing to 228 ohms
Ohmmeter measures 207 ohms cold. Two different meters agree. Probably
the difference between cold and hot ohms.
With 52 volts on the solenoid, the core temperature (looking down the
solenoid bore with an IR pyrometer) rose to 157 Deg. and stabilized.
The outer plastic temperature was 129 deg.
Modified Coil - 12 volt nom service ------
At Jerry's (electric motor) shop.
Unwound the spool on Jerry's winding machine and measured the wire
gauge more precisely after burning off the insulation. 5008 turns of
#29 wire.
Computed 1200 turns of #21 wire for 12 volts.
On the bench with 13.87 volts on the coil, the initial current was
2.153 amps. The temperature started rising rapidly. After an hour in
free air the outside temperature was 207 degrees and stable and the
current had dropped to 1.966 amps. (Ain't Boltzmann grand?) That
works out to a hot resistance of 13.87/1.966 = 7.055 ohms.
(This is Class H wire so the temperature isn't anything to get excited
about. The plastic bobbin is the limiting factor. It feels like some
sort of cheap filled polyethylene or maybe nylon.)
This is a bit hot, though it would work in the EV because that much
voltage will not be available at the coil terminals. I'm going to
shoot for 1.0 amps holding at 12 volts for the first try. That
indicates 12 ohms. A peak/hold driver consisting of a 4.7 ohm
resistor shunted by a 50k uf cap should do the job, giving a time
constant of 0.24 seconds. The 4.7 ohm resistor will need to be 5
watts at least. A 10 volt cap would work, though I'm going to use a
16 volt or greater for safety margin.
If less than 1 amp can hold the solenoid in then I'm going to try 0.75
amps and then 0.5 amp, trying for the least holding current that will
hold the solenoid in even over rough terrain. For 0.75 amps at 12.0
volts, I'll need 16 ohms total. With 7 ohms in the coil, 16-7= 9 ohms
series resistor, shunted by a 30kuf cap for about the same time
constant.
This time constant should give enough of a current pulse to hammer the
contactor closed, yet let the contactor cycle in less than half a
second if necessary. I'll probably use a standard 8 ohm sand resistor
from Rat Shack and let the light gauge hookup wiring supply the other
ohm.
The spool is too full for the blue cover to fit back on so I wrapped
the coil with Scotch 88 after dribbling some thin epoxy into the
turns. The spool is of too cheap a grade of plastic to dip and bake.
For the next coil I'll use 22ga wire which will be less filling and
will allow the blue spool cover to go back on.
---- NOTE -----
These calculations are for ordinary enameled coil winding wire and NOT
Inverter-Grade wire. IG wire has a heavier insulation so the fill
factor is larger and fewer turns will fit.
To do:
* wind another coil with 22 ga wire.
* fit an LVDT to the armature and scope the contact motion.
* Test at 0.5 and 0.75 amps holding current.
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.johngsbbq.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
Don't let your schooling interfere with your education-Mark Twain
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Since it's just six 2v batteries in series, does it not make sense
that one of the cells would go before the others, just like one
battery in your 25 batt string goes bad before any of the others?
Mike
>
> > On another question, what do you think is the reason these batteries
> > keep blowing 1-2 cells without damaging the others? Dry-out or shorts?
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Death to All Spammers wrote:
>
> > Well that was the issue .... I wanted to recharge right away
> >
> > How long can /should I wait to measure the voltage ??
> >
>
> Should level out enough in 5 minutes to get a close enough idea where
> you stand.
5 hours perhaps; but in 5 minutes it will *still* be changing fast.
Prove it for yourself; measure the voltage periodically, and you'll see
it is still changing even many hours later.
Open circuit voltage is a poor way to estimate state of charge. If you
want to know the state of charge right after a discharge, I'd use a
hydrometer to measure the specific gravity of the electrolyte.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Contact Gregory Simon for ticket information. Three seats. Do not contact
Lawrence Rhodes........
----- Original Message -----
From: Gregory Simon
G'day, All!
I've found out that my Saturday assignment was moved from 1pm to 4:30pm in
Santa Rosa; alas, I'll be unable to attend Saturday night at the Kabuki. I
have two Adult and 1 child seats on will call, and can transfer name to.
No worries, Simo
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I was on the tv news the other day , they started off with a shot of me
smoking the tires for a good 80 feet , reporter " not your dad's electric
car...." . I'm on my second set of tires , got some big 265 15's and it
still spins them like I'm on ice ( in 4th gear ) . I'm very happy with the
net gain 11motor, the spec sheet says 2times the torque for the same
amp/volts as a 9 , ( 1/2 rpm of course ) so going right to the rear end
looks very do able , .
Vs
On the 29 I'm be long distance racing my work truck 40 golf cart batteries ,
for 3 hours and will be shooting for 135 +miles ( to beat that Rave EV ) ,
after the rally , I'll be driving the same truck to ev car show in Miami
over 100 miles south , with a stop in between for charging , rest. then back
home Sunday night . I could be putting 400 ev miles on it that weekend .
Steve Clunn
one Ev is good but 2 is Better ( I liked the ev better cartoon )
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ryan Bohm" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Thursday, April 20, 2006 11:00 PM
Subject: Re: longest range?
Steve,
but the drag racing seems to be getting the most attention right now
:-) .
Steve Clunn
Haha - and you're quite the contributor :) I've seen your video laying
rubber in your truck, LOL.
-Ryan
--
- EV Source <http://www.evsource.com> -
Selling names like Zilla, PFC Chargers, and WarP Motors
E-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Toll-free: 1-877-215-6781
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
It works if you take out the back seat.
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/325.html LR.......
----- Original Message -----
From: "Neon John" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Thursday, April 20, 2006 7:15 PM
Subject: Re: Honda 600 (in Texas?)
On Thu, 20 Apr 2006 14:33:10 -0700, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
This microcar might make be a good basis for an EV (for someone else, that
is):
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=4631382724
Nah. at least not if you want any batteries on board :-)
The Honda motorcycle dealership where I worked during high school and
college sold those during that era. They came crated up just like
motorcycles do. 4 of us would pick up the crate and set it off the
flatbed truck.
The engine is a bored and somewhat stroked version of Honda's famous
450cc torsion bar valve spring motorcycle motor. Many parts
interchanged. Nice little screamer but still only 600 cc. Yet it had
good performance, mainly because it was so light. I could literally
feel the chassis bow when I sat in the driver's seat and I only
weighed 220 lbs back then.
All of us teenagers were jocks so we had lots of fun freaking out
people by single-handedly picking up the back end :-) Two of us could
pick up the front end.
Changing out a blown engine consisted of one of us standing on the
shock towers lifting on a bar hooked to a chain fastened to the motor,
dropping it out the bottom. Just like doing a squat press, only
lighter :-)
To put any lead in that chassis would involve basically building
another chassis underneath it. It's a cute little ricer that one can
almost wear as a roller-skate but an EV candidate it isn't.
John
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.johngsbbq.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
Don't let your schooling interfere with your education-Mark Twain
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I am only an hour away so I may go check it out.. If I was smaller I'd be more
excited but I'm about 6'4" so it might be a no go anyhow. I'd like to think you
could put more the just 4 optimas in it and something with more muscle then an
etek. This might make a good candidate for my wifes commute, 3 round trip
miles, in the rain. She likes to walk but it there is no where to walk or ride
a bike on the roads in between.
Someone more familiar with the car think that might work? Only need a 2
person car, mostly one?
Death to All Spammers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >This microcar might make be a good basis for an EV (for someone
else, that is):
> >
>
>http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=4631382724
> >
>
> Nah. at least not if you want any batteries on board :-)
>
>
Just thought maybe 4 Optimas, 4QD-48-300 controller and an Etek
connected directly to a donor transaxle (a Fiat, maybe?) for short
errands, then spring for lithium in the future to try for longer range.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
That might work. It'd be very limited. Good chance you would fry the
motor. LR....
----- Original Message -----
From: "Death to All Spammers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Neon John" <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Thursday, April 20, 2006 10:55 PM
Subject: Re: Honda 600 (in Texas?)
>This microcar might make be a good basis for an EV (for someone
else, that is):
>
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=4631382724
>
Nah. at least not if you want any batteries on board :-)
Just thought maybe 4 Optimas, 4QD-48-300 controller and an Etek
connected directly to a donor transaxle (a Fiat, maybe?) for short
errands, then spring for lithium in the future to try for longer range.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
How do the voltage ratings on neon lamps work? If a lamps says that its
voltage rating is 120V, does this mean that it won't turn on until 120V, or
that it should never be connected to more than 120V?
If it means that the lamp won't turn on until 120V, then how firm is that
number? Will it be passing some current at 109V or 117V, but not be passing
full current until 120V? Or will it be passing no current at all until
120V?
Finally, if it means that it won't turn on until 120V, then how do you
determine the upper range (e.g., with a 120V pack, will the lamp be okay at
a fully-charged 160V)?
Thanks.
Bill Dennis
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--- Begin Message ---
Lee Hrrt wrote:
>> Now, batteries directly connected in parallel is better than even the
>> most perfect capacitive balancer can achieve. This should tell you how
>> weak the balancing action really is. It works -- but just barely.
Victor Tikhonov wrote:
> To make active balance work, you need to keep pumping energy from
> the battery with lower terminal voltage (but possessing more Ah)
> to the battery with higher terminal voltage, do it for some time.
> Therefore mere connecting in parallel won't work (in reasonable
> time). It sure will somewhat work for 1V imbalances, but if you have
> such difference between batteries, you have more serious issue than
> just natural imbalance.
Yes; exactly! Almost all balancing schemes (including the capacitive
scheme described in this thread) assume that equal voltages mean the
batteries are balanced. So all they do is force the batteries to be at
the same voltage.
Voltage alone is easy to measure, but is a weak approximation of state
of charge. It is especially inaccurate if the battery is being charged
or discharged when you measure it.
A simple way to prove to yourself that forcing equal voltages does not
work very well is to connect two batteries in parallel. Their voltages
are instantly the same; but it takes DAYS before their states of charge
are equal.
The real goal should be to equalize states of charge between the
batteries. This requires more complicated measurements than just
voltage.
And, to equalize states of charge, your balacing system must be able to
"push" power from a lower-voltage battery into a higher-voltage battery.
This is necessary because the battery voltages CHANGE as a consequence
of being loaded or charged.
For example, suppose the most-charged battery is at 13.1v and the
least-charged is at 13.0v (both at zero current). Connect them together,
and both batteries move immediately to 13.05v, and the current flow is
almost zero. You'll be doing good if it transfers even 1 amphour per
day.
But connect them with a 1-amp DC/DC converter. The 13.1v battery drops
to 13.0v under the 1-amp load. The 13.0v battery rises to 14.5v (because
it is nearly full and is being charged). We're drawing 13v x 1a = 13
watts from the source, so the destination is charging at 13w / 14.5v =
0.896 amps (less efficiency losses in the DC/DC; 0.8a is a good guess).
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
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--- Begin Message ---
[EMAIL PROTECTED] Gregory's email
----- Original Message -----
From: Lawrence Rhodes
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List ; Zappylist ; SFEVA ;
[EMAIL PROTECTED] ; [EMAIL PROTECTED] ;
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, April 21, 2006 8:07 AM
Subject: Fw: Tickets for Saturday night "Who Killed the Electric Car" in San
Francisco
Contact Gregory Simon for ticket information. Three seats. Do not contact
Lawrence Rhodes........
----- Original Message -----
From: Gregory Simon
G'day, All!
I've found out that my Saturday assignment was moved from 1pm to 4:30pm in
Santa Rosa; alas, I'll be unable to attend Saturday night at the Kabuki. I
have two Adult and 1 child seats on will call, and can transfer name to.
No worries, Simo
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>
> The real goal should be to equalize states of charge between the
> batteries. This requires more complicated measurements than just
> voltage.
>
I think that is a fair statement. But I see that the systems in other
battery chemistry's look like they are using voltage as well for soc
measurements. The IC's I see for most chemistry's are all voltage
based. So is it that much more expensive/complex to make something
that counts ah's on each battery?
Mike
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--- Begin Message ---
I was curious why lead is getting so pricey. It's been a trend for
some years. Here was a great page of information.
http://www.batteriesdigest.com/id385.htm
Mike
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--- Begin Message ---
A neon lamp lights when its voltage reaches about 60 volts. A 120V
rated neon lamp has a resistor in series to allow it to operate from a
120V source. It will be dimmer or brighter when the voltage is lowered
or raised from 120. Its life will be reduced at 160 volts unless the
series resistance is increased.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bill Dennis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Friday, April 21, 2006 8:22 AM
Subject: Neon (Lamp, not John) Questions
How do the voltage ratings on neon lamps work? If a lamps says that its
voltage rating is 120V, does this mean that it won't turn on until 120V,
or
that it should never be connected to more than 120V?
If it means that the lamp won't turn on until 120V, then how firm is that
number? Will it be passing some current at 109V or 117V, but not be
passing
full current until 120V? Or will it be passing no current at all until
120V?
Finally, if it means that it won't turn on until 120V, then how do you
determine the upper range (e.g., with a 120V pack, will the lamp be okay
at
a fully-charged 160V)?
Thanks.
Bill Dennis
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--- Begin Message ---
Roger wrote:
The 12ft 15A 14/3 version is probably OK for use with a charger, but it
depends on the nature of the charger. If the charger has a high crest
factor (poor power factor, high peak current on the AC side), then even
though it may appear to draw a reasonable current things may still
overheat and fail.
------
I'll check on the charger specifics over the weekend (not at home right
now). I normally check the number of amp-hours used and charge at low
amperage for a time based on that, and then once the charging rate is
below 4 amps, I bump it up to "high" (~10 amps?) for a little (30-60
minutes). Again, I'm not at home and don't have my notes in front of me.
FWIW, it's also been suggested that I could just leave it plugged in
overnight on low and that would suffice and be simpler.
Also FWIW, while I don't remember the gauge of the current charging
cable (with an inline timer), I don't remember it ever growing warm. Of
course, I've never used it rolled up.. ;-)
Have you considered instead mounting a flanged inlet type recepacle in
place of the original fuel filler and just plugging in an appropriate
extension cord? I've put a NEMA L14-30 on mine and it is very nearly a
drop in replacement for the fuel filler. If you are only concerned with
120VAC charging, you could get away with a NEMA L5-30 (or even smaller;
the 5-30 is rated for 30A) flanged inlet (this is the male half of the
connector pair).
------
I like this idea! What would be an "appropriate" extension cord? We can
normally park within ten feet of our household outlet, so it needn't be
that long (although it might be nice to have a longer one for
emergencies or the unexpected). Do they make extension cords with two
male ends or will I have to fabricate one?
One other factor that may or may not come into play is a need for an
auxiliary heater (the guy who began the process yanked everything,
including the blower). Currently, we have a jury-rigged ceramic
heater/fan on the dash for defrosting purposes that works fine (if
looking a bit Rube Goldbergish), but no general heating - or fans for
cooling, FTM.
The low-tech/cheap solution was to purchase a ceramic space heater that
lives in the back hatch area, operable by a timer. It would turn on 15
minutes before we'd leave in the morning to take the chill off the car.
Actually, this is what got me started thinking about the fuel cap idea,
because as it stands now, we have to unplug it from the wall, open the
back hatch and stow the cord (thus letting out a large part of the warmth).
Granted, there are colder places in the world than the PNW - and our
commute is a short one - but my goal here is to make the car as
easy/desirable to drive as feasible - so that it will get driven (and
not just by me).
The ideal solution would involve a single cable from the car to the wall
that could be used both to charge and (when necessary) to run the
timer-regulated heater to warm up the car pre-leaving. Would it work to
simply plug both into the interior side of the fore-mentioned flanged
receptacle (assuming it would be a Bad Idea to run both charger and
heater at same time..)? Anything that makes this car simpler to use will
make it get used more!
If it's not already abundantly clear, this is our first EV. It's meant
as a stepping stone to a more comprehensive/better designed EV, not an
end in itself. We want to learn, make our mistakes, etc on THIS one - so
the next one (we already have a '73 Ghia waiting patiently) will be that
much better.
Thanks again Roger, Nick, and everyone!
- Patrick
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--- Begin Message ---
Mike Phillips wrote:
Since it's just six 2v batteries in series, does it not make sense
that one of the cells would go before the others, just like one
battery in your 25 batt string goes bad before any of the others?
Maybe, it's just odd that the remaining cells just seem to power right
on without much of a change in capacity. It's like a normal 10 volt
battery. And it doesn't "reverse" that cell, it's just zero till load is
off, then +2.
I think I am going to try adding water to the rest of the pack and
install the light bulb regs. I've been driving the car a fair bit since
I raised the pack, should be interesting to see if any of the batteries
I flagged as 10 volts got worse, or if any of the rest have gone bad.
Chris
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--- Begin Message ---
Worldwide demand and mining/refining costs are fueling the increase. Much of
the smelting costs are related to energy costs, which have been soaring also.
It's not just lead metal that has been experiencing huge price increases.
Nearly all commodity metals, including nickel, silver, zinc, aluminum, and
copper
have all experienced significant price increases in the last year.
As an example, at yesterdays market close, silver and copper were both up
41.8% for the year. That's a huge increase for just one year.
Think of all the copper, lead, and sometimes aluminum and nickel that we use
in our EV's. Regardless of the price increases, this is still a great time to
be driving EV's.
Lawson
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--- Begin Message ---
> That would really be a pig. I'm assuming the -300 means 300 amps?
>
> My GoBig scooter is 36 volts and 450 amps and only weighs 160 lbs
> without me on it, 440 lbs with me on it. It'll just about keep up
> with downtown traffic accelerating away from a traffic light, with
> gearing for about 50 mph. That little car has to weigh 800-900 lbs
> minus driver. The motor is maybe 100-150 lbs. Batteries will make up
> for the motor plus perhaps a little. No transmission for something
> like this - too many losses and too much weight. I'd just cog belt
> the motor to the jackshafts with perhaps a center bearing.
>
> I'm not how well an ETEK would work with that much mass to accelerate.
> I'd be worried about melt-down.
>
The Kewet runs a 48V/350A Curtis controller and keeps up on city
streets, but it may fit your definition of a dog if it's too slow...it
didn't seem too slow for my use.
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--- Begin Message ---
Cor,
Is there room in either of your batt boxes for a clamper board for
each batt?
Our trucks are the same 0-45 times? Hmmmm.
Mike
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Logging data from controller, so only seconds-precision available:
> (DC current takes 3 seconds to ramp from 0 to max; above 40 MPH
> the current tapers off as well)
>
> 0-45MPH in 15 sec at 200A peak
> 0-45MPH in 20 sec at 140A peak
> 1994 Chevy S10
> converted to US Electricar,
> re-converted to use Wavedriver controller (rest still US Electricar)
> clutchless manual transmission, locked in 2nd gear
> (9000 motor RPM at 72 MPH is redline)
> Vehicle weight approx 5000 lbs
> 26x 12V 110Ah UB121100 from UPG (universalpowergroup) (312V pack)
> 50 kW AC "vector" induction motor from Hughes, see spec in
> http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/uselectricar/files/
> Controller: Wavedriver VFD 700EV250 700V 250A (3-phase)
> Battery interconnects 2 AWG
>
> Other details see http://www.evalbum.com/694.html
>
> Cor van de Water
> Systems Architect
> Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
> Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
> Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
> Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
> Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Wednesday, April 19, 2006 3:37 AM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Have been collecting range data, how about acceleration data
>
>
> I would like to put together a spreadsheet with some real data on
> acceleration. Much like the range discussion that we have been
having. I'd
> like the
> following information from anyone with real world road experience on
their
> EV. I
> want to take this and do a cost comparison on acceleration vs system
cost
> and
> find the optimal point performance point for any given cost.
>
>
> I am looking for acceleration data in the range of 4 - 40 sec for 0
- 45 MPH
>
> with cars / trucks between 1500 lb and 5500 lb.
>
> Acceleration from 0 - 45 (on the flat, 40 degrees F ambient) with the
> following variables:
> - Vehicle - make, model, year
> - Transmission - manual or auto, specify with or without clutch
> - Vehicle Weight
> - Number and type of batteries with manufacturer
> - Motor - Size and Manufacturer
> - Controller - Motor Amps Max, Manufacturer, any extra details like
limited
> to 500 A for battery protection
> - Wire size for battery interconnects and long runs
>
> Here is an example (that I just made up because I don't have the car
handy
> to
> clock):
> 0 - 45 in 22 sec (roughly)
> - 1980 Jet Electra 007
> - 4 speed manual with clutch
> - 3800 lb (roughly)
> - 20 x 6 V deep cycle flooded US2200 with about 1 year of break in
> - GE 9" Series Wound - 23 HP at 96 V (I think)
> - GE EV-1C - 300 A max, limited to control heat on main SCR
> - 2/0 wires all the way around
>
> 0 - 45 not possible (top speed was 37 MPH on the flat)
> - 1970 Saab Sonett
> - 4 speed manual with clutch
> - 1900 lb (roughly)
> - 6 x 6 V deep cycle flooded T105
> - Yale lift motor - 7" X 12" - Series Wound
> - GE EV-1B - 500 A max when using bypass but only for brief periods,
> realistically 300 A sustainable
> - 1/0 for battery connections, 2/0 for long runs
>
> 0 - 45 in about 25 sec (0 - 40 in 20 sec)
> -Car described in 1980 EV Book
> - 4 speed manual with clutch
> - 2000 lb
> - 2 strings of 4 x 12 V = 48 V = 8 deep cycle 12 V batteries total
> - Compound wound J&H Starter Generator
> - Contactor controller
> - wiring unknown
>
> If you send me data, I'll compile it and write a brief summary. I hope
> someone will come back with info on a car that can do 0 - 45 in 8 sec.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Steve Powers
> Atlanta, GA
>
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