EV Digest 5395
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Aero Drag Significance ?
by "Death to All Spammers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Lead prices
by "Death to All Spammers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: battery monitor, what's up
by "Death to All Spammers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Some problems to solve
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) RE: Albright Contactor rework
by "Bill Dennis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: New Panasonic car runs off two AA batteries
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: article: PARATRANSIT, INC. AND HYBRID TECHNOLOGIES INC. (NASD OTCBB:
HYBT) A
by "Death to All Spammers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Arctic Leash
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Honda 600 (in Texas?)Other Stuff.
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Honda 600 (in Texas?)
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: New Panasonic car runs off two AA batteries
by Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Another in IL, Re: Honda 600 (in Texas?)
by "Death to All Spammers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Lead prices
by Christopher Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Some problems to solve
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: article: PARATRANSIT, INC. ...
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Low battery voltage limit and signage
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Battery patent rights
by "Steve Arlint" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: AC vs DC; Newbie Question
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: New Panasonic car runs off two AA batteries
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Aero Drag Significance ?
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: battery monitor, what's up
by "Philippe Borges" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Targa car, was: Re: longest range?
by James Massey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: battery monitor, what's up
by "Philippe Borges" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: battery monitor, what's up
by "Philippe Borges" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
> How important,significant is aero drag in an EV ?...
>
> Cyclists say "Aerodynamic drag represents the largest resistance while
> riding over level ground"
>
> What is "knee point" ?
>
Somewhere around 45mph for most cars.
I was just thinking about that guy who did all the aero work on a
pickup, but everyone knows trucks *aren't* built for aerodynamics. If
you want to prove how good you are, get the most aero production car
and make it *more* aerodynamic!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> Can you imagine lugging a 5 ton AC unit off a 20 ft high roof? The
> cop that investigated my theft said that mine was the third he's done
> in the last few weeks.
>
> John
>
Just send the police after anyone driving around a crane.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> has anyone tried the what's up or doc watson monitor, as an
> alternative to a link 10? http://www.rc-electronics-usa.com/ammeters/
> rv-battery-monitor.html
>
> I figure that I'd need to current divide, using appropriate low
> value, high power resistors to send less than 100 amps to the unit.
This unit is put in-line, not reading a seperate shunt, so those 14ga
wires won't work well with most of applications.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Rich Rudman wrote:
> Voltage and Amps... These are the only two tools to read and to vary.
And time!
> Unless you are also tracking past demand and charge cycles.
Which are derived from voltge vs. time, and current vs. time.
> So... You pick a voltage that will fill the battery on time and not
> vent it. AGM and specifically Optimas recommend 14.8 volts. Seams to
> work for most AGM batteries.
It's a useful number; a good starting point. But other numbers can work
equally well, either higher or lower, if you control the current and
time appropriately. Also, the number changes with temperature, and as
the battery ages.
> That old Bucket of water concept is very valid. But you want them all
> full, no matter if the buckets are slightly different sizes. Full and
> barely dribbling over is a Known state.
Yes.
> Locking the peak voltage with any kind of regulator is a very good
> first step. The second is to back off the main charger if you can't
> dribble the extra power fast enough to keep the voltage below the
> level you want them at.
This is good as far as it goes. Just keep in mind that regulating
voltage is NOT the same thing as regulating state of charge. Voltage is
a symptom, but not the condition itself that you want to control.
> Heck Lee, if these old concepts actually worked like folks say they
> do, we wouldn't be making Chargers and BMS improvements now would we?
Right! :-)
The key point is to measure what is going on. Most people don't measure
anything, so they have no idea what is actually going on. Battery
vendors, charger manufacturers, and snake oil salesmen can say anything
they like.
But, once folks start to measure what is actually going on, they learn.
And then, they question. "You said this was a 50 amphour battery, but I
only get 30 amphours out of it..." You claimed this isa 15 amp charger,
but that's only for the first 5 minutes..." "You said your patented
charging algorithm would double my battery life, but it had no
effect..."
And, they learn what *really* works!
> 14.8 is going to "Gas" the internal chemistry.. But not such that
> venting will occur. Well, to any great degree.
Agreed. For an AGM, you can put a certain number of amphours into it
past the gassing threshold, and there will be room to contain the gas
inside. Over a period of time, that gas will recombine back into water
so it won't vent. But, you might charge too much, or the vents get
leaky, or the battery gets old and so gases more. Over many charge
cycles, you still lose a little.
> The other means for AGM is a voltage hold While the amps taper back
> to less than 2 amps. You NEVER drive the AGM over 15 if you can help
> it. Doing so with a long series string just about guarantees you will
> vent one of the batteries. There are clear exceptions to this rule...
Yes, there are! For example, if the current is limited to under 1% of
the battery's amphour capacity, it can recombine the gas back into water
as fast as you are creating it; thus it won't vent even if you keep this
up for days.
For example, I have a poor old Hawker SBS60 battery that I got back from
one of my BEST kid's EV teams. It is 6 years old, was run dead, and then
left sitting for many months. When I got it back, it measured 11.4v.
Charged normally, it immediately went over 15v at 0.1 amps. With a 1 amp
load, it immediately collapsed to almost 0 volts.
After a 24 hour, 16v, 1 amp charge, it had 4 amphours of capacity at 4
amps. It then behaved "normally" for a 4 amphour battery, but way off
what a 60 amphour battery should do. I.e. it has way too low a capacity,
and way too much internal resistance, though the voltages and currents
are normal.
So, I've been cycling it all week with an abnormal charging regimen:
1. Discharge at 4 amps to 10.5v.
2. Charge with a 15 volt CV, 25amp CC charger to +2ah.
Experimentally, another discharge cycle at this point yields
the same amphours as the previous cycle, i.e. no improvement.
3. Continue charging to +5ah with a 16v CV, 0.5 amp CC charger.
This takes over 10 hours, but the battery does NOT gas; it warms
up slightly, and can recombine at the same rate as gas is produced.
4. Repeat from step 1 again.
What I am finding is that on each cycle, the battery gains a couple more
amphours of capacity. 4ah, 6.2ah, 8.1ah, and the last cycle was 10.0
amphours.
> Knowing the actual requirements of a single battery's state of charge.
> Well Lee, that's just about impossible. You need a LOT of solid lab
> grade data, as well as the history of the last charge cycle and depth
> of discharge, age of battery and the number and depth of all cycles.
> And then with some math and a Good WAG... you can kinda predict the
> watts needed to solve the equation.
It's not *that* bad, Rich!
Suppose I gave you a battery and a cheap automotive battery charger, the
kind that is nothing but a transformer, rectifier, and analog ammeter.
Could you tell when to turn it off so the battery is fully charged?
Sure you can! You'd charge until the ammeter quit falling; an eyeball
version if the di/dt algorithm. Charge each of your batteries this way,
and they'd all be at the same state of charge.
There are lots of other methods, too. The basic idea is to do something
*consistently* to every battery, so they will all be at the same state
of charge. It might not be "full" or "empty", but it will be consistent.
Once you are at that point, you can then charge or discharge them all
together, the same, and they will stay reasonably close.
Your regulator is a great product, and certainly a lot better than
nothing. But, it only looks at one parameter; battery voltage. It
doesn't know the current, so it can't estimate state of charge -- 14.8v
at 10 amps is a *lot* different than 14.8v at 1 amp!
A straightforward improvement would be to a) pick a current that your
regulator can safely bypass continuously, b) setup your charger to
regulate at that current when the first regulator hits its threshold
voltage. Then, as each regulator turns on, it reduces its battery's
charging current to ZERO amps. Thus, each battery STOPS charging at the
same voltage and same current; thus they all stop at (about) the same
state of charge.
Or another approach. My Battery Balancer measures each battery's no-load
voltage. It uses the *difference* in voltage to estimate the
*difference* in their states of charge. It then charges each battery for
a time proportional to the difference in their states of charge. It then
repeats this about once an hour. The batteries are thus being pushed
toward the same state of charge, regardless of whether they are all at
100%, or 50% or 0% state of charge.
> I am not sure which one gives a better charge... But I really do
> know which one is more cost effective.... And which one is easier
> to implement.
I'm not so sure, if your new regulators are going to be $75 each.
I think you may want to do a little more research; set up the regulators
in your series string a little bit differently, and measure what this
actually does to the batteries.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Using your peak/hold circuit, how about hooking the contactor to the full
pack voltage? Could the 56V contactor stand the full pack voltage while for
that brief interval when the capacitor starts to charge? At 150V full pack,
this would give almost 3 times the number of amp-turns, and with the pack
down to 100V, nearly 2 times the number of amp-turns. If the resistor is
left at 1300 Ohms, then the contactor would be seeing 100mA in hold mode,
which is still less than 50% of its nominal 228mA and should provide plenty
of holding power.
But can the coil stand that repeated initial surge of between 700 and 400
mA?
Thanks.
Bill Dennis
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Neon John
Sent: Friday, April 21, 2006 8:49 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Albright Contactor rework
On Fri, 21 Apr 2006 19:08:08 -0600, "Bill Dennis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
>My original idea when I bought the 2 56V contactors was to connect each one
>across half the traction pack. My fully-charged voltage is 150V, so 75V
>seemed too high to drive the 56V coil, and I would have needed to put a
>resistor in series with the coil to lower the voltage.
>
>Since these contactors are guaranteed to pull in down to 37V, I got a 48V
>power supply which I connected to the traction pack for input and to the
>coils on output. I thought I was all set, until Neon John posted his data
>about the contactors pulling in too slowly.
This is an excellent situation for a peak/hold off the 75 volt pack
half. Depending on how bumpy your terrain is, only 10-20% of the
rated current is necessary to hold the contactor in once it is
actuated. A resistor shunted by a capacitor will do the trick. Figure
the resistor for maybe 25-50 ma since the coil pulls 225ma at 51
volts.
The coil resistance is about 200 ohms. For 0.050 amps at 75 volts,
the total resistance should be 1500 ohms. Subtract the 200 ohms coil
resistance and your dropping resistance becomes 1300 ohms. power
dissipation = .050^2 * 1300 = 3.25 watts. A 5 watt sand resistor will
do the job.
For a 0.25 second time constant, shunt the resistor with:
0.25 = 1300C
C = 192uF.
I'd probably go up to 220uF, a standard value. I'd use a 50 volt part
for plenty of margin.
This setup will give the solenoid a little less than a half second
kick and then drop the current down to the holding level. As
important if you hook the main contactors up to the throttle
microswitch, the cap will discharge and the peak/hold circuit will be
ready for the next actuation in about another half-second. That's
plenty fast enough.
John
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.johngsbbq.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
Don't let your schooling interfere with your education-Mark Twain
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I didn't see anything in that article that told us how fast that car
went. If it covered 1 mile at 0.1 mph, it would have taken 10 hours. Any
old AA batteries can do that just fine. They deliver a surprising number
of amphours at multi-hour rates. I think a normal Energizer or Duracell
alkaline AA cell is several amphours.
Now, if it covered 1 mile in 10 minutes, that would be impressive. This
would imply that their battery can deliver substantial peak current, and
still have reasonable capacity.
Ryan Stotts wrote:
> I wondered what is the highest series voltage that has ever been
> configured using AA's?
I don't know about AA's, but I do know that old tube-type radios, geiger
counters, meggers, and other old instruments used to have 90-volt
batteries. They were usually 60 1.5v cells all in series, in a cardboard
box.
I have snapped together ten 9v batteries to make a 90v pack for testing
or using these old instruments. That was cheaper and easier than
ordering the special 90v batteries for them.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> I'll believe it when I see it. That company releases press releases
> all the time and never delivers the goods.
>
> Here is a prime example:
>
> http://www.hybridtechnologies.com/media.php?mediaID=040831
>
> Also, in that drop down box at the top of the page, look at that long
> list. Have they ever actually built anything?
>
Other past and present Chaz Haba companies: Whistler Investments, Nu
Pow'r, Lithium House, Global Electric, Planet Electric, Zingo and
R-Electric Car - most appear to be exercises in investment fishing.
Hybrid Technologies' stock performance: http://tinyurl.com/nl6pn
Considering they defaulted on a $3-mill loan and said they supplied
Jay Leno with one of their cars when they didn't, can you really
believe any of their "Forward-Looking Statements"?
I, too, would be very surprise if we ever see a real product from
them, but then I never thought any of us would see a Vectrix scooter
in the flesh, either!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
RVs have 50 amp 240 Volt power cable retractors such as:
http://www.google.com/search?q=cache:0QP8BPAW14cJ:adcache.rvtraderonline.com/3/8/0/75883780.htm+%22power+cord+retractor%22+RV&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=22
Reels ready for cable are at:
http://www.lkgoodwin.com//more_info/cable_reels/cable_reels.shtml
Some reels with and without cables are shown halfway down this page:
http://www.monstermarketplace.com/googlesearch.asp?q=rv%20power%20cord
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike & Paula Willmon" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Thursday, April 20, 2006 11:17 PM
Subject: RE: Arctic Leash
> I too was considering putting one of these under the hood and letting the
> cord pull through a hatch where the radiator used to be. However I'd like
> to make use of 220V when possible. Has anyone seen a 220V version of one
of
> these retractable reels?
>
> Mike
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 21 Apr 2006 at 9:28, Bob Rice wrote:
> Anybody travelred to Somewhere Else
> that still use Minicars?
You can find them anywhere but the US! Europe has such minicars as the
Smart Fortwo and Ford Ka; Asia has such as Nissan Micra and Daewoo Matiz -
to name just a few. These weigh in the 1600-1900 lb range. They used to be
lighter still, but like US cars they've porked up in recent years as they've
added more luxury features.
These cars would be very interesting as conversions! Regrettably, they are
not exported to the states. Because many current designs meet European
safety codes I don't see any reason they couldn't be adapted to meet FMVSS,
but the mfgs don't do so because they believe that the numbers they'd sell
in the US wouldn't justify the investment.
The Smart Fortwo is sold in Canada, however, and there may be other minicars
available there; I haven't checked lately.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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--- Begin Message ---
I can't say how many, but I remember reading of successful Honda 600
conversions in the late 1970s to early 1980s. I saw pictures of one which
used (IIRC) a Baldor motor, Wiley (?) controller, and six 12v floor sweeper
batteries (500 lb of lead).
I can't imagine this would be any worse than the hippo-on-roller-skates cars
that EFP built using Renault R10s and over a ton of lead. Bob Rice helped
build the EFP Renaults and has some fond recollections. ;-)
Many years ago the DEVC built a true parallel hybrid using a Honda 600, if
I'm not mistaken. I met this car years after it had been removed from
service, sitting in George Gless's garage. Maybe someone out in Denver
remembers this and knows what happened to it.
The main problem with a Honda 600 would be the same as with any ancient
glider - finding spare parts.
> If I was smaller I'd be more excited but I'm about 6'4" so it might be a
> no go anyhow.
In the summer of 1972, I had a part time job as a gas jockey. One of my
regular customers drove a big old Oldsmobile. He was a huge fellow, easily
6' 6" and probably close to 300 lb. One day he rolled up in his new car - a
Honda 600! Watching this big guy unfold himself from that car (and then
refold himself to fit) was a treat.
He swore that once he'd put the car on ;-) it was quite comfortable.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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Want to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while you're on vacation,
or switch to digest mode? See how: http://www.evdl.org/help/
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Sat, 22 Apr 2006 00:07:16 -0500, Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
>I didn't see anything in that article that told us how fast that car
>went. If it covered 1 mile at 0.1 mph, it would have taken 10 hours. Any
>old AA batteries can do that just fine. They deliver a surprising number
>of amphours at multi-hour rates. I think a normal Energizer or Duracell
>alkaline AA cell is several amphours.
2.5ah is the current Wallyworld consumer grade NiMH in AA.
>Ryan Stotts wrote:
>> I wondered what is the highest series voltage that has ever been
>> configured using AA's?
>
>I don't know about AA's, but I do know that old tube-type radios, geiger
>counters, meggers, and other old instruments used to have 90-volt
>batteries. They were usually 60 1.5v cells all in series, in a cardboard
>box.
Don't forget the 510 volt photoflash dry cell. I've been majorly hurt
with one of those and the storage cap in the flash. It's so
embarrassing to piss ones' self :-)
Back when the Graflex press strobes that used the 510 volt batteries
were hot stuff, I had a nice little side business going building DC/DC
inverter replacement modules. Twelve volts of C-size Nicads and the
inverter, all in a little plastic box the same dimensions as the 510
volt battery. A straight drop-in replacement. The local press and
sports photographers snapped them up, as those 510 volt batteries were
nearly $30 even back in the 70s and were only good for a couple
hundred shots. An additional benefit of my module was that I
regulated the voltage (good ole Victorian corona tubes...) so that the
exposure didn't change as the batteries discharged as would happen
with the 510 volt dry cells.
I charged $100 for my module and sold 'em as fast as I could make 'em.
Of course, a C cell Nicad was barely 2 ah back then so each photog
needed at least a couple of modules. I later did a version that used
Gates D-sized Cyclons but that required discarding the 510 volt
battery case and connector (proprietary to Graflex) and using mine
instead.
I stripped the metal cans off the Cyclons and then potted the
batteries as part of the module (with little vent holes for the relief
valves, of course) so that the assembly could be thinner. The lawyer
plague hadn't yet gotten into high gear but the Gates folks had a cow
when I told 'em I was stripping off the metal can. Ahhh, the good old
days when one could engineer without having a lawyer grafted to yer
side.
Nice biz while it lasted.
John
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.johngsbbq.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
Don't let your schooling interfere with your education-Mark Twain
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> In the summer of 1972, I had a part time job as a gas jockey. One
of my
> regular customers drove a big old Oldsmobile. He was a huge fellow,
easily
> 6' 6" and probably close to 300 lb. One day he rolled up in his new
car - a
> Honda 600! Watching this big guy unfold himself from that car (and
then
> refold himself to fit) was a treat.
>
> He swore that once he'd put the car on ;-) it was quite comfortable.
>
One more candidate:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=4633302302
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Just send the police after anyone driving around a crane.
For awhile there was a serious rash of highway lamp-post thefts in the
Baltimore area.
Not the bulbs, but the whole thing. 40 foot tall light posts.
I think they stole about 100 of them before they were caught. Odd world.
CZ
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I did that as well with an Optima. The Excel file is at
http://www.manzanitamicro.com/25%20cycles%20on%20YT%2019.xls
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lee Hart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Friday, April 21, 2006 9:42 PM
Subject: Re: Some problems to solve
> > The other means for AGM is a voltage hold While the amps taper back
> > to less than 2 amps. You NEVER drive the AGM over 15 if you can help
> > it. Doing so with a long series string just about guarantees you will
> > vent one of the batteries. There are clear exceptions to this rule...
>
> Yes, there are! For example, if the current is limited to under 1% of
> the battery's amphour capacity, it can recombine the gas back into water
> as fast as you are creating it; thus it won't vent even if you keep this
> up for days.
>
> For example, I have a poor old Hawker SBS60 battery that I got back from
> one of my BEST kid's EV teams. It is 6 years old, was run dead, and then
> left sitting for many months. When I got it back, it measured 11.4v.
> Charged normally, it immediately went over 15v at 0.1 amps. With a 1 amp
> load, it immediately collapsed to almost 0 volts.
>
> After a 24 hour, 16v, 1 amp charge, it had 4 amphours of capacity at 4
> amps. It then behaved "normally" for a 4 amphour battery, but way off
> what a 60 amphour battery should do. I.e. it has way too low a capacity,
> and way too much internal resistance, though the voltages and currents
> are normal.
>
> So, I've been cycling it all week with an abnormal charging regimen:
>
> 1. Discharge at 4 amps to 10.5v.
>
> 2. Charge with a 15 volt CV, 25amp CC charger to +2ah.
> Experimentally, another discharge cycle at this point yields
> the same amphours as the previous cycle, i.e. no improvement.
>
> 3. Continue charging to +5ah with a 16v CV, 0.5 amp CC charger.
> This takes over 10 hours, but the battery does NOT gas; it warms
> up slightly, and can recombine at the same rate as gas is produced.
>
> 4. Repeat from step 1 again.
>
> What I am finding is that on each cycle, the battery gains a couple more
> amphours of capacity. 4ah, 6.2ah, 8.1ah, and the last cycle was 10.0
> amphours.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The http://www.hybridtechnologies.com/media.php?mediaID=040722 link
claims they Whistler has *completed* its projects.
Victor
Ryan Stotts wrote:
I'll believe it when I see it. That company releases press releases
all the time and never delivers the goods.
Here is a prime example:
http://www.hybridtechnologies.com/media.php?mediaID=040831
Also, in that drop down box at the top of the page, look at that long
list. Have they ever actually built anything?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jeff Shanab wrote:
...
You've just been passed by an electric car... <<<<< I chose this one
Choose that one, cross out "a" in word "passed" and
write "i" in red above instead :-)
I'm sure it will provoke competition off the stop line and
red traffic lights...
Victor
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Greetings,
Well I am still working on building a production prototype electric motor
scooter. I have just completed the concept prototype:
http://lewis.up.edu/EGR/SRDesign06/umpqua/. It has been great fun and lots of
nights in the lab.
Ok, there's the background. Here's my problem. The batteries. I just can't
win. Mainly its business and politics. Right now, I am leaning toward NIMH
battereis. As I dived deeper into research it seems that Ovonic completely
owns the rights to NIMH in the whole developed world. As in, all other
companies have to liscence the right from them. I am concerned that if things
work out good for me and my buddies, that because they have so much influence
in this market they could controll my business in one way or another...Or
another company who has more influence in the NIMH world could edge me out. I
don't care a ton about money, but I do want to be able to make my product.
Mabey I am over reacting. I was just suprised that one company has that kind
of control over a energy source.
How is this for other battery types? As far as I know the general concept of a
lead acid or nicad batteries are public domain. I think it is the same for
li-ion. I hope someone elaborates on this.
If li-ions didn't have that calendar life issue, I would switch to them. There
are a couple of other small issues as well.
What do you all think would be a good battery solution for an electric motor
scooter? I can work out charge/discharge/balancing issues. That's just solved
by putting in lots of time in the lab.
Thanks in advance,
Steven Arlint
Team Umpqua Electric Vehicles
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--- Begin Message ---
2700 is not that bad for a modern car. You can reduce the weight quite a
bit by having all (or most) of the sound deadening insulation removed.
You will also loose a bunch with the removal of the engine, gas tank,
radiator, etc.
Potentitally you could get it down under 2000 lbs before adding the EV
components.
If you really want regen and need to replace the engine anyway, I think
it's solectria that makes a fixed reduction tranny that mounts directly to
their AC motor. Not a cheap setup, but definitely the best for
efficiency.
I think Metric mind might also have single speed trannies available, but
I'm not sure.
Of course if you go with AC then you really will have to give up the idea
of a low voltage conversion.
Though, to be honest, you're going to have a tough time getting 40-50
miles range with a 96V conversion unless you drive at something like 30
mph.
You might be able to do it with 120V worth of 6V GC batteries, but I think
you'll really have to strip down the probe to get that many batteries in.
> So, to continue (and to express more thanks for the input regarding
> AC vs DC; including side-bars...
>
> After reading and "listening" it became apparent to me that I lack
> the mechanical skills (I knew it all along) to do a conversion
> justice. So, I got in touch with the local Tech School about them
> doing a conversion for me...The head of the automotive department
> answered saying that they were very interested in the project and
> even offered a Ford Probe as a donor car (providing I would run a
> decal saying who did the conversion)...My plan was to give them
> credit regardless. I think the kids going to tech schools need as
> much exposure to the future as we can provide...Who knows, maybe one
> of them will open a conversion shop here in Central MO and become a
> raging success!
>
> Anyhoo...The Probe is a pretty heavy vehicle weighing in at just
> under 2700 lbs (add 800+ and we're easily pushing 3500#). What's it
> gonna take to get this beast moving? I had hoped to convert a GEO
> Metro or Ford Festivia (or something of similar ilk) going up to 96,
> maybe 120 v (DC), regen. Basically a small 40 to 50 mile
> around-towner. However, the offer of the "free" donor may be an
> offer too good to turn down. The only problem with the Probe of
> which I'm aware is that it needs a tranny...Surely a 4 or 5 speed
> manual can't be THAT prohibitively expensive...Or can it?
>
> I'm waiting for word as to the year and model, original engine size
> and so on but in the interm, what's your thoughts on the Probe as a
> conversion...What's the best motor size, battery pack size? Any
> other advise as to components?
>
> I'm starting to get buzzed about this...Even the wife is on board
> (she won't let me sell my grocery-getter just yet, but we'll cross
> that bridge when the time comes)...
>
> Again, many thanks for all your help and guidance...I hope I can
> repay the list some day...
>
> Wayne
>
>
> If those of us who "can", "do" then those of us who "can't" won't
> suffer as much from the high prices of excess.
>
>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
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--- Begin Message ---
> Ryan Stotts wrote:
>> I wondered what is the highest series voltage that has ever been
>> configured using AA's?
>
> I don't know about AA's, but I do know that old tube-type radios, geiger
> counters, meggers, and other old instruments used to have 90-volt
> batteries. They were usually 60 1.5v cells all in series, in a cardboard
> box.
Didn't one of the land speed EVs use a whole bunch of C cells?
Then there was that kook that claims he has invented an overunity motor
and did the televised demonostration a couple decades ago. He drove
around at about 5 mph for several hours using a HUGE number of 9V
batteries.
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
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It depends on how fast you drive. In a full size car at 5-10 mph, it's
pretty insignificant. At 20-30 mph, it starts to be substantial and
around 40 mph it becomes the predominant loss for the vehicle.
Of course this assumes a vehicle with average Cd. With more aerodynamic
vehicles it might not become predominant untill 50mph, aand less aero
vehicles perhaps at 30 mph.
> How important,significant is aero drag in an EV ?...
>
> Cyclists say "Aerodynamic drag represents the largest resistance while
> riding over level ground"
>
> What is "knee point" ?
>
>
>
>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
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--- Begin Message ---
i use it on E-scooter:
it's said to be limited to 65Ah, 6,5Kw, 60V, 100A for 30seconds and it's
accurate.
You should use external shunt (bigger one) as i suppose the power limitation
come from the tiny SMC shunt type used.
cordialement,
Philippe
Et si le pot d'échappement sortait au centre du volant ?
quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
Forum de discussion sur les véhicules électriques
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/index.php
----- Original Message -----
From: "elaine chiu" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Saturday, April 22, 2006 1:40 AM
Subject: battery monitor, what's up
> has anyone tried the what's up or doc watson monitor, as an
> alternative to a link 10? http://www.rc-electronics-usa.com/ammeters/
> rv-battery-monitor.html
>
> I figure that I'd need to current divide, using appropriate low
> value, high power resistors to send less than 100 amps to the unit.
>
> also, is there a way to adapt a kill-a-watt from AC to DC easily?
>
> thanks for info.
>
> elaine
> berkeley, CA
>
> '76 citicar, converted '86 pickup truck
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 07:46 PM 21/04/06 -0700, you wrote:
James,
James Massey wrote:
Such a car would attract LOTS of attention, and would HAVE to perform
flawlessly.
Lots of attention is good but still don't pay bills.
The money would be the clients issue - I'm happy to put a couple of hours
into this at this time just for the giggles and the fantasy, I'll be blown
away if they get the sponsorship and it goes ahead.
Has anyone attempted or heard of a vehicle like this?
If you get sponsorship, my company will attempt, I don't see
*any* technical problems. All doable today.
That is pretty much what I thought. I'm guessing LiPo, 300V+, 200Ah, twin
AC drives, custom charger to take advantage of the 415V 3-phase here (or a
boat anchor fast charger travelling on a support truck, "nice" charger to
finish off overnight from 240VAC domestic power).
If it has to be done in AU, can be arranged too. It won't be
cheap (may or may not fit in 130k) but will perform as
flawlessly as hardware manufacturers guarantee their hardware.
The US130k figure is just the battery, I figure - add another $40k to $50k
for the battery charging and management, motors and controllers, and
chassis, that price would of course vary, depending on what the sponsors
make. If these people go ahead with the build it would happen locally to
me, I'd anticipate getting to fit out the drive system and probably do the
entire wire-up as my part of the sponsorship.
Problem is to get sponsorship *in order to* build it, not the
other way around. A secured guarantee to get paid from sponsors
after race is OK too (will allow to borrow money needed to build).
The client has done race team work before, and understood immediately
various aspects of the potential - an electric in such a race? unheard of,
come 50th and there would still be lots of talk about it, giving any
sponsor plenty of mileage. Center-tunnel battery pack concept was taken up
in seconds - he immediately sketched a conceptual chassis, using open-wheel
front end, center tunnel battery pack, trailing arm rear suspension (I
think that is what it is called) allowing the drive belt/chain from motors
fixed to the chassis to drive the rear wheels whilst rotating about the
suspension pivot/motor centerline. May not be the best way, but he
understood the no-gearbox/no clutch, fixed gear reduction and sketched
something that followed that concept.
Classic issue...
Understand that one - crystal clear!
Victor
Regards
James
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Watt's up:
I use one in my son E-pocket bike:
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/images/pocketbikepersotdb.jpg
Inside the Feigao power analyzer (watt's up is similar conception):
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/images/Feigaowattmeter.jpg
So yes it should be possible to use external shunt.
cordialement,
Philippe
Et si le pot d'échappement sortait au centre du volant ?
quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
Forum de discussion sur les véhicules électriques
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/index.php
----- Original Message -----
From: "Death to All Spammers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Saturday, April 22, 2006 6:35 AM
Subject: Re: battery monitor, what's up
> > has anyone tried the what's up or doc watson monitor, as an
> > alternative to a link 10? http://www.rc-electronics-usa.com/ammeters/
> > rv-battery-monitor.html
> >
> > I figure that I'd need to current divide, using appropriate low
> > value, high power resistors to send less than 100 amps to the unit.
>
> This unit is put in-line, not reading a seperate shunt, so those 14ga
> wires won't work well with most of applications.
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I already talked about Watt's up on the list (message copy below) Subject
was : Battery Analyzer - Keeping track of AHr's w/confidence
Watt's up is made for R/C user market ! = DC
Since then i have also purchased the "made in china" Feigao power analyzer
which is 100V, 10KW and...10Ah limited but come with RS232 and data logging
software , price: 35$.
I opened it and it is an unautorized copy of this one (1 version was RS232
not sold anymore)
http://www.medusaproducts.com/Other/Power-Analyzers/pa-60100T.htm
Since then they switch to USB.
cordialement,
Philippe
Et si le pot d'échappement sortait au centre du volant ?
quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
Forum de discussion sur les véhicules électriques
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/index.php
Sent: Wednesday, October 26, 2005 8:37 PM
Subject: Battery Analyzer - Keeping track of AHr's w/confidence
>I'm an happy watt's up user (buy them 50$ from here)
>http://cgi.ebay.fr/Compact-Battery-Pack-Analyzer-Meter-4-60V-upto->100A_W0Q
QitemZ5822827153QQcategoryZ51004QQtcZphotoQQcmdZViewItem
>a must have tool for battery testing:
>I made an automatic battery capacity tester (50A electronic load) with
>selectable voltage limit because i have all sort of EV batteries :^)
>For more than 50A continuous you HAVE to open it (break in fact...) and put
>a big fan on it or change SM tiny onboard shunt (should be 0.001ohm) for
>outboard 100A 100mv or 200A 200mw one !
>otherwise upper 100A it will desolder fast i think...
>You can put it on e-bike dashboard and have very accurate low cost
e-meter's
>like (though no memory so it have to be ON all time after charge, about
10mA
>power usage)
>In this case i advise you changing LCD HD44780 (3,3V here not 5V) which is
a
>50°C max version for a -20°C to 70°C one.
>lets talk about his one too:
>For 100$ with PC connectivity for data logging
>http://www.medusaproducts.com/Other/Power-Analyzers/pa-60100T.htm
>I would buy it but i'm finaly designing my own one Pc based to have more
>functions like temp monitoring, automatic cycler and other useful EV
>bateries care things :^)
>cordialement,
>Philippe
>Et si le pot d'échappement sortait au centre du volant ?
>quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
>http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
>Forum de discussion sur les véhicules électriques
>http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/index.php
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mueller, Craig M" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, October 26, 2005 8:37 PM
Subject: Battery Analyzer - Keeping track of AHr's w/confidence
> I have a battery analyzer for my e-Bike project (link below) - I see
> there is a "Batman 3" out that seems to do the same thing, but the sales
> description seems to point more toward racing applications.
>
>
>
> My intent is to develop a reliably predictable way to know my state of
> charge and range (remaining or used) - Have any microprocessors been
> developed to allow users to input vehicle/pack specific variables (e.g.
> Peukert, vehicle weight, rolling resistance fudge factor, couple with
> speedometer to account for drag + input drag coeff., battery life
> profile) to get an accurate range output?
>
>
>
> http://www.batteryspace.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=1634
>
>
>
> http://www.cloudelectric.com/item.jhtml?UCIDs=866086%7C901767&PRID=74047
> 5
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
>
>
> Craig Mueller
>
cordialement,
Philippe
Et si le pot d'échappement sortait au centre du volant ?
quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
Forum de discussion sur les véhicules électriques
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/index.php
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lee Hart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Saturday, April 22, 2006 4:41 AM
Subject: Re: battery monitor, what's up
> elaine chiu wrote:
> > has anyone tried the what's up or doc watson monitor, as an
> > alternative to a link 10? http://www.rc-electronics-usa.com/ammeters/
> > rv-battery-monitor.html
>
> This is the first I've seen it mentioned on the EV list.
>
> > also, is there a way to adapt a kill-a-watt from AC to DC easily?
>
> Possibly; I have one but don't know if it works on DC, or what would be
> needed to make it do so.
> --
> Ring the bells that still can ring
> Forget the perfect offering
> There is a crack in everything
> That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
> --
> Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
>
--- End Message ---
