EV Digest 5396
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: AC vs DC; Newbie Question
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) RE: Albright Contactor rework
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Regulating battery charge ( was Re: Some problems to solve)
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Battery patent rights
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) RE: Targa car, was: Re: longest range?
by "Mark Fowler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: New Panasonic car runs off two AA batteries
by Bruce Weisenberger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Lead prices, Short Circuses!
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re:EV Stickers WAS Low battery voltage limit and signage
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) New batteries
by Calvin King <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Low battery voltage limit and signage
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: AC vs DC; Newbie Question
by "Philippe Borges" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) mini-cars are available and Long range Re: Honda 600 (in Texas?)Other
Stuff.
by "jerryd" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Battery patent rights
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Regulating battery charge ( was Re: Some problems to solve)
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Lead prices, Short Circuses!
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: New Panasonic car runs off two AA batteries
by "Mike Phillips" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Lead prices, Short Circuses!
by "Mike Phillips" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Lead prices, Short Circuses!
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Lower voltage AC, was Re: AC vs DC
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
20) Re: Arctic Leash
by "Joseph H. Strubhar" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: New batteries
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: New Panasonic car runs off two AA batteries
by "Tom Shay" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: New batteries
by "Mark Grasser" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Peter VanDerWal wrote:
I think Metric mind might also have single speed trannies available, but
I'm not sure.
Yes, we have single speed reduction gear boxes which include
differentials, already bolted to the motors (MES-DEA).
You have half shafts out, and only have to link vehicle's
half-shafts to it. Note, doesn't really have to be FWD vehicle.
Of course if you go with AC then you really will have to give up the idea
of a low voltage conversion.
Not true, though typically the higher voltage, the higher efficiency.
Lowest working voltage for TIM-600 and TIM-400 inverters is 80VDC.
Though, to be honest, you're going to have a tough time getting 40-50
miles range with a 96V conversion unless you drive at something like 30
mph.
You might be able to do it with 120V worth of 6V GC batteries, but I think
you'll really have to strip down the probe to get that many batteries in.
Yes. For practical purposes the range is only function of battery
capacity, not it's voltage. You spend Wh per mile as you move,
you don't spend volts. So you need so many Wh on board.
In practice other limitations for too low voltage come into play though.
Victor
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> My original idea when I bought the 2 56V contactors was to connect each
> one
> across half the traction pack. My fully-charged voltage is 150V, so 75V
> seemed too high to drive the 56V coil, and I would have needed to put a
> resistor in series with the coil to lower the voltage.
>
> Since these contactors are guaranteed to pull in down to 37V, I got a 48V
> power supply which I connected to the traction pack for input and to the
> coils on output. I thought I was all set, until Neon John posted his data
> about the contactors pulling in too slowly.
>
Is that fully charged while on the charger, or fully charged resting voltage?
Anyway, you can build a voltage divider that will produce any voltage
between zero and the pack voltage. uSE the resistance of the coil as 1/2
the divider, then all you have to do iS add an appropriately sized
resistor, or better yet a resistor and a capacitor.
Let's assume you have a 144V nominal pack. It doesn't really matter what
the fully charged unloaded voltage is, because you won't be at this
voltage for very long while the contactor is energized.
Also remember that the pack voltage will fall as it discharges.
IIRC the coil has approx 225 ohms of resistance. So normal current at 56V
= 250 ma. Let's assume that we only need 100 ma to hold the coil. You
might get by with less holding current, but you won't save much energy,
the coil can easily handle this much power continuously, and it will hold
stronger so it won't be as likely to drop out on bumps.
Minimum holding voltage would therefor be 100 ma * 225 ohms = 22.5V. So
we want at least 22.5V (100 ma) even when the pack is almost dead (~126V).
Using ohms law that means out total resistance (coil plus resistor) needs
to be 126V / 100 ma = 1260 ohms. SUbtract the 225 for the coil and the
resistor should be approx 1035 ohms. Call it a 1k ohm resistor.
So, check our work, 1K ohm resistor plus 225 ohm coil means 126V / 1225
ohms = 103 ma. Close enough (in case it's not obvious, exact values are
NOT critical)
Now let's look at the high end of or voltage (~150V?) 150V / 1225 =~ 122
ma. That means the the coil will have ~ 27.6 V, not nearly enough to pull
in, so you'll need to add a bypass capacitor in parallel with the load
resistor.
I was up late last night working on a problem and can't think straight
right now so I'll let someone else figure out the RC time constant and
capacitor value, but as a swag something like a 220mf 150V cap should do
the trick.
oh yeah, need to figure out how much power the resistor is dissipating,
Let's see 150V minus the coil voltage (27.6) leaves about 122.5V. 122.5V
* 122 ma = 15 watts. That means you'd need a 1k ohm 15 watt resistor. If
you can't find one of those, then three 330 ohm 5 watt resistors in series
should also work.
So assuming I haven't screwed up, here is a rough ascii drawing
220 mf 150V
+--------------||-----------------+
| |
| |
+---+----\/\/\/----/\/\/\---\/\/\/----+--------+
| 3 ea 330 ohm, 5 watt resistors |
| +_
| _)
_ _) Relay coil
___ _)
_ +
___ |
_ switch |
___ |
| / |
+---------------------/ +----------------------+
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> A straightforward improvement would be to a) pick a current that your
> regulator can safely bypass continuously, b) setup your charger to
> regulate at that current when the first regulator hits its threshold
> voltage. Then, as each regulator turns on, it reduces its battery's
> charging current to ZERO amps. Thus, each battery STOPS charging at the
> same voltage and same current; thus they all stop at (about) the same
> state of charge.
Hmm, I'm assuming you mean to drop the charge current and keep it dropped?
When we drop the current, the battery that hit bypass voltage will drop in
voltage and the batreg will turn off (correct?) . Seems to me this will
slow down charging.
Would it maybe be better (i.e. quicker) to drop to max bypass current
while batregs are on and to some intermediate charge current when they
turn off.
I.e. Bulk charge at 20 amps, drop to 2 amps when any batreg is on, go back
up to 5-10 amps when they are all off?
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
A few things, the patent controls the manufacture of the batteries not
their use, ok technically it controls the manufacture for use as...
Anyway, unless you are planning on manufcaturing NiMH it won't affect you.
I believe Ovionic limits the manufacturing of NiMH batteries to 10 ah or
less. So use batteries sold in the US with less than 10 AH and you're
cool.
Besides, the patent will probably run out before you bring your product to
market anyway.
Or, you could simply avoid the problem and use NiMH for developement and
switch to LiIon or LiPol batteries for production, since it looks likely
that they will be available at affordable rates fairly soon.
> Greetings,
>
> Well I am still working on building a production prototype electric motor
> scooter. I have just completed the concept prototype:
> http://lewis.up.edu/EGR/SRDesign06/umpqua/. It has been great fun and
> lots of nights in the lab.
>
> Ok, there's the background. Here's my problem. The batteries. I just
> can't win. Mainly its business and politics. Right now, I am leaning
> toward NIMH battereis. As I dived deeper into research it seems that
> Ovonic completely owns the rights to NIMH in the whole developed world.
> As in, all other companies have to liscence the right from them. I am
> concerned that if things work out good for me and my buddies, that because
> they have so much influence in this market they could controll my business
> in one way or another...Or another company who has more influence in the
> NIMH world could edge me out. I don't care a ton about money, but I do
> want to be able to make my product. Mabey I am over reacting. I was just
> suprised that one company has that kind of control over a energy source.
>
> How is this for other battery types? As far as I know the general concept
> of a lead acid or nicad batteries are public domain. I think it is the
> same for li-ion. I hope someone elaborates on this.
>
> If li-ions didn't have that calendar life issue, I would switch to them.
> There are a couple of other small issues as well.
>
> What do you all think would be a good battery solution for an electric
> motor scooter? I can work out charge/discharge/balancing issues. That's
> just solved by putting in lots of time in the lab.
>
> Thanks in advance,
>
> Steven Arlint
> Team Umpqua Electric Vehicles
>
> --
> _______________________________________________
> Check out the latest SMS services @ http://www.linuxmail.org
> This allows you to send and receive SMS through your mailbox.
>
> Powered by Outblaze
>
>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
If you are talking that sort of money, just get a Lithium powered T-Zero
:-)
If you're putting something together yourself, I agree that you'll need
Lithium batteries, and Kokams look like the best option for large Ah and
high current.
As for the body, probably a 4cyl 4wd racer like a WRX or Lancer and do
the dual motor thing similar to Cliff at ProEV.
A big Zilla and 2x Warp9s is another alternative to 2x AC motors and
controllers.
Mark
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of James Massey
> Sent: Saturday, 22 April 2006 6:23 PM
> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> Subject: Re: Targa car, was: Re: longest range?
>
>
> At 07:46 PM 21/04/06 -0700, you wrote:
> >James,
> >
> >James Massey wrote:
> >>Such a car would attract LOTS of attention, and would HAVE
> to perform
> >>flawlessly.
> >
> >Lots of attention is good but still don't pay bills.
>
> The money would be the clients issue - I'm happy to put a
> couple of hours
> into this at this time just for the giggles and the fantasy,
> I'll be blown
> away if they get the sponsorship and it goes ahead.
>
> >>Has anyone attempted or heard of a vehicle like this?
> >
> >If you get sponsorship, my company will attempt, I don't see
> >*any* technical problems. All doable today.
>
> That is pretty much what I thought. I'm guessing LiPo, 300V+,
> 200Ah, twin
> AC drives, custom charger to take advantage of the 415V
> 3-phase here (or a
> boat anchor fast charger travelling on a support truck,
> "nice" charger to
> finish off overnight from 240VAC domestic power).
>
> >If it has to be done in AU, can be arranged too. It won't be
> >cheap (may or may not fit in 130k) but will perform as
> >flawlessly as hardware manufacturers guarantee their hardware.
>
> The US130k figure is just the battery, I figure - add another
> $40k to $50k
> for the battery charging and management, motors and controllers, and
> chassis, that price would of course vary, depending on what
> the sponsors
> make. If these people go ahead with the build it would happen
> locally to
> me, I'd anticipate getting to fit out the drive system and
> probably do the
> entire wire-up as my part of the sponsorship.
>
> >Problem is to get sponsorship *in order to* build it, not the
> >other way around. A secured guarantee to get paid from sponsors
> >after race is OK too (will allow to borrow money needed to build).
>
> The client has done race team work before, and understood immediately
> various aspects of the potential - an electric in such a
> race? unheard of,
> come 50th and there would still be lots of talk about it, giving any
> sponsor plenty of mileage. Center-tunnel battery pack concept
> was taken up
> in seconds - he immediately sketched a conceptual chassis,
> using open-wheel
> front end, center tunnel battery pack, trailing arm rear
> suspension (I
> think that is what it is called) allowing the drive
> belt/chain from motors
> fixed to the chassis to drive the rear wheels whilst rotating
> about the
> suspension pivot/motor centerline. May not be the best way, but he
> understood the no-gearbox/no clutch, fixed gear reduction and
> sketched
> something that followed that concept.
>
> >Classic issue...
>
> Understand that one - crystal clear!
>
> >Victor
>
> Regards
>
> James
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
See AC Propulsion or T-Zero- Used I believe nearly 7000 Lithium-ion 18650's
which I believe are AA sized.
Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Now load it up with even more AA's and
make it really scoot!
----
Someone at school had a SWR meter/analyzer that used 10 AA batteries.
The battery box claims they are 1.5v each. Connected in series, the
device was claiming 16.1v. I was thinking my car battery at 12 and
these 10 little batteries at 16... pretty neat. I wondered what is
the highest series voltage that has ever been configured using AA's?
----
Bonus story!
We had this cart with a fully working demonstration air conditioning
unit on it. It required 28 volts DC to be hooked up to it to drive
the motor to drive the compressor. The unit was low on freon so the
(can't think of the name) switch wouldn't let the compressor run. The
instructor wanted to bypass it to see if the motor still worked... He
got a good sized wire and connected it to the hot side of the solenoid
and touched it to the motor terminal.. It audibly arced and I felt he
was lucky that it didn't weld the wire to the motor post. It did
leave a melt mark on the post and the end of the wire. The motor
plate said 90 amps.
I would have had the power turned off, connected the wire and then
used the switch on the cart to avoid doing what he did...
---------------------------------
Celebrate Earth Day everyday! Discover 10 things you can do to help slow
climate change. Yahoo! Earth Day
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Christopher Zach" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Saturday, April 22, 2006 1:09 AM
Subject: Re: Lead prices
> > Just send the police after anyone driving around a crane.
>
> For awhile there was a serious rash of highway lamp-post thefts in the
> Baltimore area.
>
> Not the bulbs, but the whole thing. 40 foot tall light posts.
>
> I think they stole about 100 of them before they were caught. Odd world.
>
But they had to use a crane, WHO would question a crane, truck and
proffessional crew. Just go out in broad daylite and have at it!
> CZ
>
Hi EVerybody;
Copper, too! Amtrak has had problems with folks swiping,or at least
trying to swipe overhead catenary lines. Usually the thief is fried,
resulting in train delays as 11k 25 HZ duz a pretty good jub of catching the
guy! Although SOME, surprisingly have lived! But they don't have much of a
case for a lawsuit.
My two amps worth!
Bob
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jeff Shanab" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Friday, April 21, 2006 11:23 PM
Subject: Low battery voltage limit and signage
> I went to go get a license plate frame made for my EV and it was a
> little too much driving around. I recently programmed the low voltage
> battery limit to 250V on a 288V nominal (24 orbitals) pack. I am
> thinking this is to conservative for two reasons.
> I didn't light even one red led on the regs, this feture on the zilla is
> very smooth and effective. It felt like the battery was gone, but
> obviously not. I just needed a few short duration dips below that to get
> home at speed. Instead of an embarrassing crawl at 20-25mph for the last
> one block.
>
> What is a good setting for this?
> As I said, 24 orbitals, 3000lb before conversion, Zilla1K HV, 9 incher.
>
> I am thinking that a dash mounted valet switch and a second set of
> settings may be in orde, although I try to avoid such deep discharges, i
> need to be able to over-ride and get out of my own way.
>
> For those interested, I had these ideas for my license plate frames.
>
> if you can read this
> it is time to plug me in
>
> You've just been passed <<<<< I chose this one
> by an electric car <<<<< something for people to think
> about at the stoplight.
>
> Warning this car has
> lots of potential
>
> Happiness is 1000#
> of warm lead
>
> I've got lead poisoning
>
> no smog, no oil changes
> no gas, no problem ..........Thank you Victor!!
>
> Would you still drive it
> if exhaust came out the dash?
>
> Hybrids? Hybrids? we don't
> need no stinking hybrids
>
> It's electric
> Driver carries no gas
>
> Resistance is useless
> This car has lotsa potential
>
> Resistance is useless
> But fun to overcome
>
> It takes ~12kwh to refine <<<they couldn't get the ~ or the word
> "about"
> a gallon of gas. Why bother? <<< it came out looking like a negative
> number
>
> 28 Horsepower
> wanna race?
>
Good ones!
Howbout
"Flowing with the Current"
" So many Cars, so Little Time"
" Quiet Car. Please be considerent of your fellow travelers"
Borrowed that sticker from Amtrak<g>!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks David for the explanation.
Now for more needed information.
Again using small words can someone explain what should be happening
to the charge and batteries from the moment I plug the charger in to
the time I disconnect? What should I be seeing? Oh, I am using a
K&W BC20. Remember I have a pack of 18 6-volt Workaholic (USB)
flooded batteries.
For a pack of 18 6-volt batteries what should the charger out put be
for normal charging? What is needed for equalizing the batteries?
When the batteries are fully charged and have been at rest for two
hours what should the batteries register on an emeter?
Thanks,
Calvin King
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Victor said : I'm sure it will provoke competition off the stop line and
red traffic lights...
That could be a problem, it is kinda a dog right now and I don't know
why, It did better before.
cables tight and read ok during charge, pot reading full travel and heat
sink temp cool, but duty cycle won't go over 64%.
There are also some strange noises so I need to address those first.
Here is a strange one, the alignment up front is off because the back is
squatting too much. the toe was to far in. In 1 month it completely wore
off the tires, but they were really old rubber, looked new but had sat
for over 3 years. This and a speed sensor are project 1 today.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Victor Tikhonov" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Saturday, April 22, 2006 11:13 AM
Subject: Re: AC vs DC; Newbie Question
Peter VanDerWal wrote:
> > Of course if you go with AC then you really will have to give up the
idea
> > of a low voltage conversion.
> Peter VanDerWal wrote:
Victor Tikhonov wrote:
> Not true, though typically the higher voltage, the higher efficiency.
> Lowest working voltage for TIM-600 and TIM-400 inverters is 80VDC.
Not talking about what is possible, seems to me, if max amp is usable at
such low nominal voltage, a 80V 325Arms AC system E-car is going to be a
pricey as inefficient slug.
I suppose it was the Peter's point also.
Just for apple to orange comparaison: some of new Forklift system using AC
at 80V go to 550Arms, such are designed to "low" voltage giving efficient
and powerful...low speed EV :^)
cordialement,
Philippe
Et si le pot d'échappement sortait au centre du volant ?
quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
Forum de discussion sur les véhicules électriques
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/index.php
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Bob and All,
----- Original Message Follows -----
From: "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Subject: Re: Honda 600 (in Texas?)Other Stuff.
>>
>> >From: Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> >
>> >You mentioned the right alternative - Fiat.
>> >There are millions of Fiats, unfortunately not so many
>> >in the US. The Fiat 600 was comparable to this car, the
>> >reason for the popularity of the 600 (CC = 0.6 liter
>> >engine) was that in some countries you could drive
>> >without license in a car with engine below 600 cc (not
>> >any more as far as I know).
>> >There are two Fiat 600 on Ebay, but neither is a good
>> >candidate due to rust and such issues....
>> >Back to the Bradley GT's?
They and other kitcars are now our best choice
for lightweight chassis, many with low aero drag too as a
plus.
And there are some cars like the, some MR-2
among others that are both aero and light but need to use
the 1990 or before versions before all the cars really
porked out.
An early mini truck with an aero camper shell
with other aero, rolling drag improvements could easily get
100 mpg with a modest battery pack, overall costs.
While I like Ghia EV's Michaelia, I wouldn't chop
up a nice convertible to make one, and the convertible is
not nearly as aero as the hardtop, so better would be sell
the contvertible, buy a dead Ghia hardtop and put in
ni-cads to get great range, long battery life. I'd bet with
Saft Ni-cads at about $600/KW, would cost about $9k for
15kw,100 miles worth as you should be able to get your drag
down to 120 wthrs/mile.
With Auto watering, cooling, no loss of range in
cold weather and just the cost of 2 AGM packs of the same
range, Ni-cads are a viable alternative. For charging all
you need is a dumb charger and an E-meter to turn it off by
relay.
>> > Hi EVerybody;
>
> In Japan, and maybe the Europe, there used to be a
>series of cars that just don't exist in USA. Mini-cars?
>When I was stationed in Okinawa, hell, 40 years ago they
>had cute LITTLE cars, Mazda 800 comes to mind. Offered at
>800 Bux US they were a 2 seat minicar. They were cute, I
>could pick up ether end as a gag.Was temped to buy one,
>bring it home and convert it to Electric, but got shipped
>out. As Uncle Sam was my travel agent, didn't have much
>say.There were other tiny Japanese cars that would be ideal
>to convert, think DECENT body Citicar size, I mean with
>doors and windows that worked!
I really liked the few I've seen, mostly Euro
ones. My favorite was a Fiat/ Abarth race kitcar and of
course the Fiat600, the first EV I ever saw.
It was 1963 or so and there were 3 EV's parked at
the local McDonalds, one was the 600, another was a Renault
Caravelle and a Fiat 850 Spider which is what inspired me
later to build a couple EV MC's in the 70's.
>
> I havent been overseas, since dinosours roamed the
>earth<g>!So I don't know what is offered in , say, Okinawa
>, Japan or Taiwan. Going with the trend that has brought us
>3000 lb's VW's WITHOUT any batteries aboard. other than a
>12 volt SLI, I don't hold out much help. The guy in the UK,
>who was griping about the price of Diseasel, and said that
>his Diesel got 55 mpg. Musta been a small car!!? Smaller
>than the long lamented Diseasel Rabbits, which could come
>darn close!
>
> As Jerry D. points out , ya need to cut down on the dead
>weight. But for the rest of us, that arent prepared to haul
>off and just build a car, conversions are the way to go for
>now. Anybody travelred to Somewhere Else that still use
>Minicars? Gees If somebody Over There could buy up clean
>ones, strip out the ICE engine, ship them back here on a
>onzies twozies basis? In small doses you would come under
>the Saftety Nazis' radar and NO engine?Polution.
Dead weight and aero drag are what make EV's
expensive and slow. Done right I believe EV's can easily
compete with ICE's. As the price of oil goes up with a
bullet over the next few yrs, over $75bbl yesterday, beat
them badly in costs.
It's sad our gov won't allow EV's like the Reva
come here but at least some of one mini car is already here,
the Smart mini. 200 were imported by Panoz to convert to EV
but they backed down and sold them surplus. Personaly I
think a good used Kitcar would be better though for those
who want less work, a Smart EV conversion may be the way to
go..
Jerry Dycus
>
> Just a mourning thought.
>
> My Two Minis worth
>
> Bob
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Steve Arlint wrote:
> working on building a production prototype electric motor scooter...
> batteries... Ovonic completely owns the rights to NIMH in the whole
> developed world...
Yes. And Ovonic (now Cobasys) is owned by an oil company. And has been
suing anyone who tries to use nimh batteries in electric vehicles. How's
that for the basis of a conspiracy theory?
But as a practical matter, they patented the nimh battery in the 1980's,
and the patents are running out. And (mainly because of their
restrictive licensing), most nimh batteries are produced in China and
Korea, who ignore their patent claims and licenses. You can buy all you
want at Radio Shack.
> How is this for other battery types? As far as I know the general
> concept of a lead acid or nicad batteries are public domain.
Correct.
> I think it is the same for li-ion.
No; lithium based batteries are still a subject of frantic patenting and
claim-jumping. But in this case, there aren't any domineering players --
there are lots of competing approaches that are "almost as good", so no
one has been able to monopolize the market (yet).
> What do you all think would be a good battery solution for an electric
> motor scooter?
Don't lock yourself into one particular type of battery. You pick the
best battery for your application AT THE MOMENT, and go with it for now.
As circumstances change (and they always will), you change batteries.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
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Peter VanDerWal wrote:
> I'm assuming you mean to drop the charge current and keep it dropped?
Yes. When the first regulator turns on, it latches the charger in the
low-current "equalize" level, and it stays there until it turns off
completely (probably after some programmed length of time).
> When we drop the current, the battery that hit bypass voltage will
> drop in voltage and the batreg will turn off (correct?).
Correct. It will oscillate on/off.
> Seems to me this will slow down charging.
No, because the battery is already "full" when it hits this limit.
> Would it maybe be better (i.e. quicker) to drop to max bypass current
> while batregs are on and to some intermediate charge current when they
> turn off. I.e. Bulk charge at 20 amps, drop to 2 amps when any batreg
> is on, go back up to 5-10 amps when they are all off?
This would be likely to overcharge, because you'd be applying a high
charge current into a battery that is already full.
What I'm trying to do is bring all batteries to the same state of charge
(defined by a particular voltage at a particular current, and then STOP
them from charging any further while the charger continues to bring the
rest of them up to that same level.
If I were designing the regulators from scatch, I'd have them
- Charger switches to a defined low constant "finishing" current
BEFORE the first battery reaches its defined "full" voltage
(say, 14.7v at 1 amp).
- Regulators switch on at some slightly higher defined voltage
(like 14.8v). This is to insure that the battery is charging at
1 amp when it hits the threshold.
- Regulators STAY ON, and continuously bypass the entire 1 amp
charging current. This makes the charging current for each battery
fall to ZERO when it hits that particular level of charge.
- Charger shuts off either after some defined length of time
(1-2 hours), or when the LAST battery's regulator switches on
(whichever comes first).
This has the effect of ending charging for every battery at the SAME
voltage at the SAME current; which is a crude way to get them all to the
SAME state of charge. It's not taking into account temperature or
battery age, but it's closer than just regulating at a constant voltage
with no regard to current.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
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What I can't figure out is why lead is selling for record prices, but
when I take my scrap lead-acid batteries back for recycling, I still
only get 2 cents per pound -- that's the same as it's been for over 10
years.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
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18650's are 18mm diameter x 65mm long.
AA's are 14mm dia x 50mm long.
Volume = 3.14159 x R^2 x H
AA's volume = 7696.8 cubic mm's
18650's volume = 16540.47 cubic mm's
So the 18650 is over double the volume of a AA cell.
Mike
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Bruce Weisenberger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> See AC Propulsion or T-Zero- Used I believe nearly 7000 Lithium-ion
18650's which I believe are AA sized.
>
> Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Now load it up with even more
AA's and make it really scoot!
>
>
> ----
>
>
> Someone at school had a SWR meter/analyzer that used 10 AA batteries.
> The battery box claims they are 1.5v each. Connected in series, the
> device was claiming 16.1v. I was thinking my car battery at 12 and
> these 10 little batteries at 16... pretty neat. I wondered what is
> the highest series voltage that has ever been configured using AA's?
>
>
> ----
>
> Bonus story!
>
>
> We had this cart with a fully working demonstration air conditioning
> unit on it. It required 28 volts DC to be hooked up to it to drive
> the motor to drive the compressor. The unit was low on freon so the
> (can't think of the name) switch wouldn't let the compressor run. The
> instructor wanted to bypass it to see if the motor still worked... He
> got a good sized wire and connected it to the hot side of the solenoid
> and touched it to the motor terminal.. It audibly arced and I felt he
> was lucky that it didn't weld the wire to the motor post. It did
> leave a melt mark on the post and the end of the wire. The motor
> plate said 90 amps.
>
> I would have had the power turned off, connected the wire and then
> used the switch on the cart to avoid doing what he did...
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Celebrate Earth Day everyday! Discover 10 things you can do to help
slow climate change. Yahoo! Earth Day
>
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I have read in that article I point out earlier that there have been
several lead smelter closures. So demand has outstripped the supply.
Your recycler is just making more money off of you than before.
Do you have to disassemble the batts to recycle the lead? I'm going to
set up my cnc mill to cut open a few anyway.
Mike
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> What I can't figure out is why lead is selling for record prices, but
> when I take my scrap lead-acid batteries back for recycling, I still
> only get 2 cents per pound -- that's the same as it's been for over 10
> years.
> --
> Ring the bells that still can ring
> Forget the perfect offering
> There is a crack in everything
> That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
> --
> Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
>
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--- Begin Message ---
Mike Phillips wrote:
> Your recycler is just making more money off of you than before.
> Do you have to disassemble the batts to recycle the lead? I'm going to
> set up my cnc mill to cut open a few anyway.
Nope; they take them whole at the scrapyard. So I'm getting 2 cents a
pound, including case and acid.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
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Can't tell if this has 2 motors or just one:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=4633850611
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--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Nick Austin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Friday, April 21, 2006 12:50 PM
Subject: Re: Arctic Leash
> On Fri, Apr 21, 2006 at 09:55:27AM -0700, Patrick Clarke wrote:
>
> > Do they make extension cords with two
> > male ends or will I have to fabricate one?
>
> Public service announcement:
> Never make an extension cord with two male ends!
>
> If you plug one male end into the outlet, then you have live conductors
> sitting on the other side ready to shock you!
This last part is true, but the "Never", like most blanket statements, is
not necessarily so! We have one at our shop for special instances when we
need it, but we know what we are doing, and are careful not to leave it
plugged in when we aren't using it, or around to see to it that no one else
can get too close without a warning. We use it only for the tap transformer
that we have to power hand tools off 480v when we don't have 120v available.
It is better to have a male inlet, as is mentioned in the last part of this
post (that I snipped!).
Joe ----- GREMCO, Inc.
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--- Begin Message ---
Hello Calvin,
I cannot find the specs. on a USB workaholic 6-volt battery.
For complete info, the ampere-hour is needed for a 20 hr rate, and the
Reserved Minutes at 75 amps.
Ok, lets do some ball park calculation compare to my 6 volt Trojans.
If the ampere-hour rating of the battery is 200 Ah at a 20 hr rate, it can
deliver 10 amperes for 20 hours (10 amperes x 20 hours = 200 amp-hrs)
Actual battery capacity decrease as discharge current increase. So I
normally used the 75 amp at so many minutes of reserved capacity (which a EV
may be in that average range of 50 to 100 amps).
Lets say the reserved capacity at 75 amperes is 120 minutes, then:
120 min. / 60 = 2 hrs.
Therefore:
2 hrs. x 75 amps = 150 amp-hrs usable at 75 amps.
For a good life of the battery, it is recommended not to charge more than 20
percent of the rated ampere-hour of the battery at the 20 hr rate, to a
maximum of SOC (State Of Charge) to 80 percent.
200 ah x .20 = 40 amp charge.
A 18 - 6 volt pack would be call a 108 volt pack. Each cell has normally a
voltage of 2.11 per cell, so each 6 volt battery would read 6.33 or about
114 volts for the 18 battery pack.
After a new battery is manufacture and charge, the voltage of 6.33 volts
could still be at that rate after 2 or 3 weeks of resting.
The maximum discharge should not be more than 5.16 volts, its is best not to
go below 5.23 volts. This will be close to 20% State of Charge. Its is
best to not go below 50% S.O.C. which would be 6.05 volts per battery or
108.9 volts for the battery pack.
This voltage of 108.9 is the resting voltage, not the sag voltage when the
battery is at loaded. Example at different amperes at 50% S.O.C. the
voltage sag would be:
0 amp = 114.00 volts
75 amp = 101.16 volts
150 amp = 91.62 volts
225 amp = 82.08 volts
300 amp = 72.54 volts
A higher amp-hour battery will not sag this much, the maximum my 260 ah
battery will sag at 50% is to 155 volts.
The charging rates depends on the battery temperature.
I charge my 6 volts batteries to the following rates which are converted to
your 108 volt pack:
Normal Charging
7.20 volts or 129.6 volts at 78 degrees F.
7.35 volts or 132.3 volts at 70 degrees F.
7.50 volts or 135.0 volts at 65 degrees F.
Equalization Charging
7.78 volts or 140.0 volts at 78 degrees F.
Trickle or Maintaining Charging
6.68 to 6.69 volts or 120.4 volts
The setting voltage after 2 hours for my batteries are at:
6.68 volts if I am not doing any maintaining charging.
After 24 hours the voltage will be in a range of 6.38 to 6.40 volts after
charging.
I do not used a BMS (Battery Manager System) or separate regulators for each
battery to maintain a balance. When the batteries become more than 0.02
volts out of balance, than about every 6 months I will charge each battery
with a 6 volt smart charger that only takes less than 60 seconds after I
have charge them up to about 95% with the battery pack charger.
My batteries are now going on 4 years and they are still perfect.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "Calvin King" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Saturday, April 22, 2006 7:25 AM
Subject: New batteries
> Thanks David for the explanation.
>
> Now for more needed information.
> Again using small words can someone explain what should be happening
> to the charge and batteries from the moment I plug the charger in to
> the time I disconnect? What should I be seeing? Oh, I am using a
> K&W BC20. Remember I have a pack of 18 6-volt Workaholic (USB)
> flooded batteries.
>
> For a pack of 18 6-volt batteries what should the charger out put be
> for normal charging? What is needed for equalizing the batteries?
> When the batteries are fully charged and have been at rest for two
> hours what should the batteries register on an emeter?
> Thanks,
> Calvin King
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lee Hart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Friday, April 21, 2006 10:07 PM
Subject: Re: New Panasonic car runs off two AA batteries
I didn't see anything in that article that told us how fast that car
went. If it covered 1 mile at 0.1 mph, it would have taken 10 hours. Any
old AA batteries can do that just fine. They deliver a surprising number
of amphours at multi-hour rates. I think a normal Energizer or Duracell
alkaline AA cell is several amphours.
In my collection of batteries I find some AA NiCd batteries labelled 650
mahr and AA NiMH labelled 1600 mahr. I think the capacity of alkalines
is between these two.
You can find data on Duracell AA batteries at:
http://www.duracell.com/oem/Pdf/new/1500_US_Ultra.pdf
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--- Begin Message ---
Roland,
I am in the charger busines and am grateful to this list. I am learning a
whole bunch.
I believe that when you charge your batteries at voltages above 7.2 volts
you need to do it at much reduced current levels.Could you be more detailed
in this area for me?
Thanks,
Mark Grasser
Hello Calvin,
I cannot find the specs. on a USB workaholic 6-volt battery.
For complete info, the ampere-hour is needed for a 20 hr rate, and the
Reserved Minutes at 75 amps.
Ok, lets do some ball park calculation compare to my 6 volt Trojans.
If the ampere-hour rating of the battery is 200 Ah at a 20 hr rate, it can
deliver 10 amperes for 20 hours (10 amperes x 20 hours = 200 amp-hrs)
Actual battery capacity decrease as discharge current increase. So I
normally used the 75 amp at so many minutes of reserved capacity (which a
EV may be in that average range of 50 to 100 amps).
Lets say the reserved capacity at 75 amperes is 120 minutes, then:
120 min. / 60 = 2 hrs.
Therefore:
2 hrs. x 75 amps = 150 amp-hrs usable at 75 amps.
For a good life of the battery, it is recommended not to charge more than
20 percent of the rated ampere-hour of the battery at the 20 hr rate, to a
maximum of SOC (State Of Charge) to 80 percent.
200 ah x .20 = 40 amp charge.
A 18 - 6 volt pack would be call a 108 volt pack. Each cell has normally
a voltage of 2.11 per cell, so each 6 volt battery would read 6.33 or
about 114 volts for the 18 battery pack.
After a new battery is manufacture and charge, the voltage of 6.33 volts
could still be at that rate after 2 or 3 weeks of resting.
The maximum discharge should not be more than 5.16 volts, its is best not
to go below 5.23 volts. This will be close to 20% State of Charge. Its
is best to not go below 50% S.O.C. which would be 6.05 volts per battery
or 108.9 volts for the battery pack.
This voltage of 108.9 is the resting voltage, not the sag voltage when the
battery is at loaded. Example at different amperes at 50% S.O.C. the
voltage sag would be:
0 amp = 114.00 volts
75 amp = 101.16 volts
150 amp = 91.62 volts
225 amp = 82.08 volts
300 amp = 72.54 volts
A higher amp-hour battery will not sag this much, the maximum my 260 ah
battery will sag at 50% is to 155 volts.
The charging rates depends on the battery temperature.
I charge my 6 volts batteries to the following rates which are converted
to your 108 volt pack:
Normal Charging
7.20 volts or 129.6 volts at 78 degrees F.
7.35 volts or 132.3 volts at 70 degrees F.
7.50 volts or 135.0 volts at 65 degrees F.
Equalization Charging
7.78 volts or 140.0 volts at 78 degrees F.
Trickle or Maintaining Charging
6.68 to 6.69 volts or 120.4 volts
The setting voltage after 2 hours for my batteries are at:
6.68 volts if I am not doing any maintaining charging.
After 24 hours the voltage will be in a range of 6.38 to 6.40 volts after
charging.
I do not used a BMS (Battery Manager System) or separate regulators for
each battery to maintain a balance. When the batteries become more than
0.02 volts out of balance, than about every 6 months I will charge each
battery with a 6 volt smart charger that only takes less than 60 seconds
after I have charge them up to about 95% with the battery pack charger.
My batteries are now going on 4 years and they are still perfect.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "Calvin King" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Saturday, April 22, 2006 7:25 AM
Subject: New batteries
Thanks David for the explanation.
Now for more needed information.
Again using small words can someone explain what should be happening
to the charge and batteries from the moment I plug the charger in to
the time I disconnect? What should I be seeing? Oh, I am using a
K&W BC20. Remember I have a pack of 18 6-volt Workaholic (USB)
flooded batteries.
For a pack of 18 6-volt batteries what should the charger out put be
for normal charging? What is needed for equalizing the batteries?
When the batteries are fully charged and have been at rest for two
hours what should the batteries register on an emeter?
Thanks,
Calvin King
--- End Message ---
