EV Digest 5414
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) New AC system option (was Re: Nissan AC conversion)
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Does John really need reverse? was:White Zombie Update...360
Volts...More HP!
by John Norton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Reverse with series motors, was: Does John really need reverse? w
as:White Zombie
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Torque per amp
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: V28 battery (was Re: Thanks a lot Monster Garbage. I'll bet someone
is happy.)
by Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Speedometer without a transmission?
by "Stefan T. Peters" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Correction: Re: New AC system..
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) RE: New AC system option (was Re: Nissan AC conversion)
by "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: 'Simply Given? was:White Zombie Update...
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: New AC system option (was Re: Nissan AC conversion)
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Thoughts on getting publicity
by "Charles Whalen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) blown fuse
by Calvin King <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Does John really need reverse? was:White Zombie Update...360
Volts...More HP!
by "Ryan Stotts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: EMB's .. Electro Mechanical Batteries
by Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) running hot
by brian baumel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Does John really need reverse? was:White Zombie Update...360
Volts...More HP!
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) RE: Can someone correct a misunderstanding?
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: running hot
by "Mark Grasser" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Does John really need reverse? was:White Zombie
Update...360 Volts...More HP!
by Mike Chancey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: EMB's .. Electro Mechanical Batteries
by Nick Austin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
George and all,
Peter VanDerWal wrote:
Don't bother, that is way to much for that motor.
Contact Victor at www.metricmind.com
He sells brand new Seimens AC motors plus he has the mating controller
with integrated DC-DC converter and contactors, plus he has shaft couplers
if needed for his motors. I believe if you buy them from him, you will
also get a warranty.
Yes, we offer 10 years warranty on all Siemens hardware.
If you want to buy just the motor alone, he can
probably beat that ebay price.
Sorry, no motors or inverters alone.
Plus if you buy from Victor you get all of his knowledge and experience
for free (heck of a deal).
Thanks Peter, will take it as a compliment :-)
The other AC option is to buy a solectria motor and controller. I have a
solectria setup, though I haven't ahd time to put it into anything yet.
It's a very nice setup, but a little on the wimpy side. Should be ok for
a lightweight EV. Solectria has larger motors available, but I think
Victor offers a wider variety including even more powerful motors.
I believe Shari Prange at Electro Automotive carries Solectria setups:
http://www.electroauto.com/
If you want low (120-144V) AC setup for a compact commuter, here is
a deal:
All, there is an opportunity to get low voltage version of Siemens
AC system. Simovert 6SV-1 long inverter 65VDC...160VDC input) and
1FV5104WS09 AC synchronous motor. The motor has a max torque of 75 Nm
and a max motor speed of 6000 rpm. Max power of the system is
30...35kW then. It was used in City STROMer - OEM built (in Europe)
VW Golf.
Here you can see a photo of the STROMer: (third vehicle on the first row
of photos): http://www.metricmind.com/photo.htm.
With only 96VDC traction battery the system in STROMer
delivers 22 kW: http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/160.html
While in Holland, I had a chance to drive this vehicle.
Granted, not a rocket, but very adequate for commuting needs.
This particular one uses lead acid 6V Dryfit batteries
so is a bit heavier than could have been if 12V batteries
would be used. Depends on your needs.
The long inverter contains inverter itself, 60A DC-DC converter
*and* main/precharge contactors all integrated into one unit.
If you haven't seen this photo, here is what a long 6SV-1 inverter
look like: http://www.metricmind.com/ac_honda/images/finished_full.jpg
(this is my vehicle). The main contactors are visible in this photo
(right side): http://www.metricmind.com/images/l_open.jpg
High integration level allows very simple setup and wiring.
No need to worry about DC-DC, contactors, reversing (if you want
reverse) etc. 2 cables DC in, 3 cables to motor out, one interface
plug for dash controls (will be supplied pre-wired). That's it.
High quality throttle pot is supplied as well.
You only connect "on switch", "start" pushbutton and forward/reverse
toggle switch. Diagnostic lamps (or LEDs) are optional.
Of course you get all the benefits of regen, electric reverse,
whole slew of programmable parameters. Read more about
inverter features here:
http://www.metricmind.com/features.htm or better yet download
installation manual: http://www.metricmind.com/data/man_w.pdf
The motor has flange face mating with VW tranny but of course
as with any adapter plate can be bolted to any tranny.
Good thing is you don't need the shaft coupler either:
the shaft already cones with OEM made hub ready to bolt
a flywheel to. Few photos of the motor:
http://www.metricmind.com/misc/5109/1fv5104ws09_001.jpg
http://www.metricmind.com/misc/5109/1fv5104ws09_001.jpg
http://www.metricmind.com/misc/5109/1fv5104ws09_001.jpg
http://www.metricmind.com/misc/5109/1fv5104ws09_001.jpg
http://www.metricmind.com/misc/5109/1fv5104ws09_001.jpg
http://www.metricmind.com/misc/5109/1fv5104ws09_001.jpg
The motors have been in a few storages for a long time
(thus some rust and scratches from handling), but are
unused.
All systems will have full 10 years warranty.
The cost: few first systems (may be 10-15 or so) will be
sold for $4.6k everything: see it as $2.3k motor and $2.3k
inverter. Only together, preprogrammed to work together,
no fiddling please.
People often comment on the efficiency of a low voltage setups,
AC in particular. Here is a combined (motor+inverter) efficiency
map for this very system in OEM City STROMer.
http://www.metricmind.com/misc/5109/efficiency_5104ws09.jpg
It shows that you should stay above 2000 RPM to get better
than 80% overall. See it as ~90% motor and ~90% inverter.
Please contact me off list if you have any questions, but I don't
have much more technical details than above. Serious inquiries
only please. The quote may change depending how fast these go, but
will be as specified for at least first 10 systems.
Thanks all,
--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Wed, 26 Apr 2006 16:56, Andrew Letton wrote:
...plus, the bendix drive on all starters I'm aware of will only allow
it to engage in one direction.
On second thought, my dad's 1950 Chevy pickup had a big mechanical
starter button on the floorboard. I wonder if that actually moved the
starter into engagement with ring gear or if it was just an electrical
switch. Anybody know if there are starters that don't have a
"conventional" bendix drive? Or perhaps get a starter that is designed
to turn the opposite direction (Honda?) from what your car was designed
for so the bendix works _only_ in reverse.
cheers,
Andrew
With the ice motor out of the way, mount the starter backward. A little
more engineering, but shouldn't be that hard.
But if you still have a flywheel, you prolly still have the
transmission.
The harder problem that prompts the question is the direct drives.
Either the main motor(s) have to be reversible - with the problems of a
drivetrain optimized to maximum forward thrust (not any harder than
getting an ice motor to run backward if it had no tansmission) or some
auxiliary system must handle it, adding weight.
John F. Norton
via T-Mobile Sidekick
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
There is a way to add reverse to a setup with series motors
without affecting the main current path (so not additional
resistance/cable/contactors) are in the main (forward) drive.
Essentially it needs an additional 2-pole contactor near the
motor(s) to temporarily shunt the field and armature in
anti-parallel to the controller.
This is very inefficient as a drive, but you are not racing
backwards, so that is no problem.
This solution can be used on single as well as on siamese
series setups.
On single motor it is easy:
If one side of the Armature is connected to the +motor
output of the controller, then:
- the extra contactor has one pole connecting the other
side or the Armature winding (and one side of the Field)
to the -motor output of the controller, and
- the other pole of the extra contactor runs the other
side of the Field also to the +motor output of the
controller.
The current through the Field winding is now reversed and
the motor runs backwards, controlled by the accelerator
and the flip of a 'reverse' switch to disable the normal
contactor(s) (especially in a series/parallel setup) and
enable the extra reverse contactor.
If the (extra) contactor sits right next to the motor(s)
then there are only short and light cables to the motor(s)
needed, as reversing is not done for a long run, so 2 AWG
cables should work fine and all but one connections can be
taken from the motor(s):
- hook up to the Field-Armature series wire(s)
- hook up to both motor feeding wires
Only the -motor output in above example needs to be taken
from the other side of the main contactor.
I realize that most will not have their main contactor in
the motor loop on a single motor setup, this idea started
from the twin motor with series/parallel switching as
shown in the clipped text from an earlier email below my sig.
Still it can be done for a single motor as well.
I have another idea to avoid the main contactor in the motor
wiringa nd still get reverse drive, but I'll describe that
in a separate posting.
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
Below is part the email I sent some months ago about
reverse with 2 series motors:
-------------------------------------------------------
Anti-parallel reverse idea:
This idea does not change the number of contactors or
resistance of your main drive setup but depends on
you having two motors and external access to the
connection between field and armture winding and will
use the series motors in a much less efficient parallel
motor setup, but since you won't be racing backwards,
this setup may work for you, in particular when you have
the two motors with the field coils attached to the
series contactor (note: you can randomly select in which
order the Field and Armature windings are connected, as
long as the current runs the same direction through both
then the motor will run identical).
The usual setup for a series connection (omitting the
two parallel-switching contactors for clarity) is:
+ motor1 series motor2 -
with + and - the controller's motor outputs and
with "series" the series contactor.
Now lets split each motor in its Armature and Field
windings:
+ Armature1 Field1 series Field2 Armature2 -
We see that as soon as the "series" contactor closes,
the same current runs through all of the windings.
Now assume that we add two extra contactors, each
running from the connection between a motor's Field
and Armature winding to the opposite motor-output
of the controller: (X1 and X2 are the contactors)
+ Armature1 \ Field1 series Field2 / Armature2 -
\ X1 - + X2 /
You can see that when the contactors close the
connections and voltages on the windings are reversed
for the two Field windings:
+ Armature1 - Field1 series Field2 + Armature2 -
In other words: when both X1, X2 as well as the series
contactor are closed, the two motors are running in
reverse, with the two Armature windings parallel across
the controller and the series of the two Field windings
also parallel to the two Armature windings, but with
current in the opposite direction.
This means that a lot of current will be drawn, mostly
by the low resistance Field windings (that's why they
better be in series to double the resistance and allow
twice as much current through the Armature) but still
it will need a good current-limiter in the controller!
The beauty is that you do not need to add motors, only
2 very short cables and 2 contactors, bolting right
onto the motors themselves. In addition, you can
control the "reverse" drive with the accelerator pedal,
through the controller.
If you are not sure if the parallel-switched motor
setup will deliver enough power (ie not short the
controller before moving the car) then you can
easily rig it up with 2 short cables WITHOUT even
bothering about the contactors and test the reverse
drive to see if you have some power.
My guess is that you have only about 10% of the
forward power in reverse, due to the unbalanced
current, mostly flowing through the Field windings.
You would have a very clean setup though, no need
for big cables into the cabin, only one additional
control line to the two additional contactors.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello Jeff,
If you do not have a clutch, or even a lock up torque converter that can be
used instead of a clutch, it will be hard to keep running the motor at some
higher rpm to reduce the starting torque.
This is why I have a clutch or lock up torque converter for a standard
transmission. My vehicle had a automatic at one time and could idle with
out a torque converter. At the time did not have a pump pressure release
system, that they have today which worn out the disc's in with 1000 miles.
A friend of my just bought one of those Monster Pickup Trucks from GM, that
have 6 speeds auto and 6 speeds manual. In the manual position, it has to
be shift like a standard manual transmission, except there is a pressure
relief system to control the value body.
If I want to service the A/C unit, power steering, vacuum, and rotating
DC-DC-DC-AC inverter which either drives off the pilot shaft of the motor
threw a Flexidine Coupler, and a Dodge electric clutch or a electric drive
motor, I need to eyeball all these systems while the motor is running,
without putting a stick against the accelerator peddle.
If I am coasting down a long icy hill, the accessory motor drive shuts down,
drawing 0 amps from the battery, then the Dodge electric clutch connects the
main motor to the accessory drive, this acts just like compression braking
of a ICE and the main motor amps also reads 0 amps. This provides a
mechanical REGEN to the accessory drive and at the same time provides
braking instead of wasting this energy in a large resistor if the batteries
cannot accept anymore energy.
This is the reason, I have all these indicators to monitor all these units,
control circuits, and back up circuits.
In 30 years of driving, I had two faults. The first one was a small control
fuse blow. The fuse indicator lite up which tells, me exactly what happens,
and I switch over to a back up circuit. Took me only 15 seconds to
troubleshoot and repair.
The second fault, was a field winding opening up after running 29 years.
Instead of using a backup circuits, you could use double fuse holders, where
one fuse is active and the other is a in place spare.
To make it maintenance ease, I use fuse indicators, that show which fuse is
blown.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jeff Shanab" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, April 25, 2006 11:02 PM
Subject: Re: Torque per amp
> huh?
> I don't understand how i would get from a stop idleing at 500 rpm to
> moving, unless you are suggesting slipping the clutch(not possible) but
> you also said if i had a clutch, so ???
>
> Right now my instumentation consists of an emeter. period. I need more.
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Wed, 26 Apr 2006 09:48:20 -0500, Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
>Neon John wrote:
>> I have a non-EV project in mind where these cells would work perfectly
>> if I didn't have to BMS every one individually. Charging speed isn't
>> an issue - overnight would be fine - so I can sacrifice speed for
>> simplicity.
>
>Since the packs come with a BMS already built in, why not use it? How
>hard is it to just use them with the same charger that Milwaukee is
>using, or "hack" one and make an equivalent one that can charge many
>packs at once?
That'd be fine if I wanted 28 volts for this project. I don't. I
want 14 volts. I don't have room for that
construction-worker-resistant heavy duty packaging. The batteries
will be built-in so using the stock charger isn't an option.
I know what I want to accomplish, I just am not sure about some of the
details.
John
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.johngsbbq.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
Don't let your schooling interfere with your education-Mark Twain
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
mreish wrote:
Quoting Mark Hastings <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
Since there are a number of people on the list without transmissions
where did you get a speedo to work without one. I see racing ones and
some GPS ones but they have a pretty high premium. Is there a run of
the mill speedo that I can use with a driveshaft that someone can
point me to?
It's pretty common in the motorcycle world to use bicycle speedos.
These have a
magnet that you attach to some rotating part and a hall effect sensor
that sends
signals to the display. If that's too cheesy for ya you can hook said
hall
effect sensor up to a pic or other micro controller and display our
speed/mileage/etc on a nifty inexpensive LCD.
I've done three bikes with the bicycle speedo but for my current bike
I'm going
with the latter option. I picked up a 16x2 LCD display and a BS2 off
ebay
pretty cheap and now I have a high-tech looking dash.
I plan on creating a Wiki for my project and releasing it under GPL or
Creative
Commons or some sort of license.
Mike
http://www.electricmotorcycles.net
http://www.dakotadigital.com/index.cfm/page/ptype=product/product_id=109/category_id=105/home_id=59/mode=prod/prd109.htm
At the bottom of the page.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Sorry, messed up images URLs (forgot to edit). Correct ones:
http://www.metricmind.com/misc/5109/1fv5104ws09_001.jpg
http://www.metricmind.com/misc/5109/1fv5104ws09_002.jpg
http://www.metricmind.com/misc/5109/1fv5104ws09_003.jpg
http://www.metricmind.com/misc/5109/1fv5104ws09_004.jpg
http://www.metricmind.com/misc/5109/1fv5104ws09_005.jpg
http://www.metricmind.com/misc/5109/1fv5104ws09_006.jpg
Victor
Victor Tikhonov wrote:
...
http://www.metricmind.com/misc/5109/1fv5104ws09_001.jpg
http://www.metricmind.com/misc/5109/1fv5104ws09_001.jpg
http://www.metricmind.com/misc/5109/1fv5104ws09_001.jpg
http://www.metricmind.com/misc/5109/1fv5104ws09_001.jpg
http://www.metricmind.com/misc/5109/1fv5104ws09_001.jpg
http://www.metricmind.com/misc/5109/1fv5104ws09_001.jpg
...
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
WOW Victor - this is an excellent deal. Makes me want to build another EV!
Don
Don Cameron, Victoria, BC, Canada
see the New Beetle EV project www.cameronsoftware.com/ev
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Victor Tikhonov
Sent: April 26, 2006 3:47 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: New AC system option (was Re: Nissan AC conversion)
George and all,
Peter VanDerWal wrote:
> Don't bother, that is way to much for that motor.
>
> Contact Victor at www.metricmind.com
>
> He sells brand new Seimens AC motors plus he has the mating controller
> with integrated DC-DC converter and contactors, plus he has shaft
> couplers if needed for his motors. I believe if you buy them from
> him, you will also get a warranty.
Yes, we offer 10 years warranty on all Siemens hardware.
> If you want to buy just the motor alone, he can probably beat that
> ebay price.
Sorry, no motors or inverters alone.
> Plus if you buy from Victor you get all of his knowledge and
> experience for free (heck of a deal).
Thanks Peter, will take it as a compliment :-)
> The other AC option is to buy a solectria motor and controller. I
> have a solectria setup, though I haven't ahd time to put it into anything
yet.
> It's a very nice setup, but a little on the wimpy side. Should be ok
> for a lightweight EV. Solectria has larger motors available, but I
> think Victor offers a wider variety including even more powerful motors.
>
> I believe Shari Prange at Electro Automotive carries Solectria setups:
> http://www.electroauto.com/
If you want low (120-144V) AC setup for a compact commuter, here is a deal:
All, there is an opportunity to get low voltage version of Siemens AC
system. Simovert 6SV-1 long inverter 65VDC...160VDC input) and
1FV5104WS09 AC synchronous motor. The motor has a max torque of 75 Nm and a
max motor speed of 6000 rpm. Max power of the system is 30...35kW then. It
was used in City STROMer - OEM built (in Europe) VW Golf.
Here you can see a photo of the STROMer: (third vehicle on the first row of
photos): http://www.metricmind.com/photo.htm.
With only 96VDC traction battery the system in STROMer delivers 22 kW:
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/160.html
While in Holland, I had a chance to drive this vehicle.
Granted, not a rocket, but very adequate for commuting needs.
This particular one uses lead acid 6V Dryfit batteries so is a bit heavier
than could have been if 12V batteries would be used. Depends on your needs.
The long inverter contains inverter itself, 60A DC-DC converter
*and* main/precharge contactors all integrated into one unit.
If you haven't seen this photo, here is what a long 6SV-1 inverter look
like: http://www.metricmind.com/ac_honda/images/finished_full.jpg
(this is my vehicle). The main contactors are visible in this photo (right
side): http://www.metricmind.com/images/l_open.jpg
High integration level allows very simple setup and wiring.
No need to worry about DC-DC, contactors, reversing (if you want
reverse) etc. 2 cables DC in, 3 cables to motor out, one interface plug for
dash controls (will be supplied pre-wired). That's it.
High quality throttle pot is supplied as well.
You only connect "on switch", "start" pushbutton and forward/reverse toggle
switch. Diagnostic lamps (or LEDs) are optional.
Of course you get all the benefits of regen, electric reverse, whole slew of
programmable parameters. Read more about inverter features here:
http://www.metricmind.com/features.htm or better yet download installation
manual: http://www.metricmind.com/data/man_w.pdf
The motor has flange face mating with VW tranny but of course as with any
adapter plate can be bolted to any tranny.
Good thing is you don't need the shaft coupler either:
the shaft already cones with OEM made hub ready to bolt a flywheel to. Few
photos of the motor:
http://www.metricmind.com/misc/5109/1fv5104ws09_001.jpg
http://www.metricmind.com/misc/5109/1fv5104ws09_001.jpg
http://www.metricmind.com/misc/5109/1fv5104ws09_001.jpg
http://www.metricmind.com/misc/5109/1fv5104ws09_001.jpg
http://www.metricmind.com/misc/5109/1fv5104ws09_001.jpg
http://www.metricmind.com/misc/5109/1fv5104ws09_001.jpg
The motors have been in a few storages for a long time (thus some rust and
scratches from handling), but are unused.
All systems will have full 10 years warranty.
The cost: few first systems (may be 10-15 or so) will be sold for $4.6k
everything: see it as $2.3k motor and $2.3k inverter. Only together,
preprogrammed to work together, no fiddling please.
People often comment on the efficiency of a low voltage setups, AC in
particular. Here is a combined (motor+inverter) efficiency map for this very
system in OEM City STROMer.
http://www.metricmind.com/misc/5109/efficiency_5104ws09.jpg
It shows that you should stay above 2000 RPM to get better than 80% overall.
See it as ~90% motor and ~90% inverter.
Please contact me off list if you have any questions, but I don't have much
more technical details than above. Serious inquiries only please. The quote
may change depending how fast these go, but will be as specified for at
least first 10 systems.
Thanks all,
--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
From what I've seen the dragster of today becomes the daily driver of
tomorrow. I saw a video made by Danny Ames of the 99 Woodburn I think.
Records were set and JW was under a hundred in the quarter. Maniac Mazda
and a funny narrow dragster were fighting it out. I believe that funny
narrow thing was the beginnings of the Tango. It's now somebodys daily
driver. Weather John was trying or not it seems along with speed Zombie is
becoming very streetable. I'll bet pound for pound more energy into Zombie
comes out as hp rather than heat. To me that makes a good daily driver
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'd love to buy couple of these for myself as well - it is unlikely to
see this deal in future - I just have my plate full of projects and no
time... So let others benefit from this.
Victor
Don Cameron wrote:
WOW Victor - this is an excellent deal. Makes me want to build another EV!
Don
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Mike,
On Wednesday, April 26, 2006 6:25 PM, Mike Phillips wrote:
Hi Charles,
Is it established that Toyota is actually coming out with a PHEV?
That they're working on it and it's in development -- yes; the exact timing
of when it's coming out -- no. But they're working towards the 2008-2009
model year timeframe.
I think EV's are just seen as too complicated by Joe average. That's
why a $25k Phev is chosen over a $10k EV conversion.
Pretty ironic, isn't it, when it's the exact opposite, which is why I am not
much interested in a HEV or PHEV for myself personally -- too complicated
with dual drivetrains, too much complexity, too many moving parts and things
to fail from a reliability standpoint. Violates the most basic engineering
principles. BEVs are the way to go for me, the decision that I and my
family have made; no turning back on that now; no going back to
ICE/HEV/PHEV, which are all a step backwards. But I'm finding that it's
hard to convince many people, even with my 120-mile range BEVs. Maybe I'm
just not very persuasive. People seem to be a lot more amenable to PHEVs
despite all that complexity and extra cost; at least that's what I'm
finding.
My old boss and I did a spreadsheet of the cost of my motorcycle, EV
truck, 383cid plymouth wagon, and a Prius. Cost of ownership of a
Prius with the monthly payments is terrible over the first 5 years.
Not great over 10 years. The wagon was decent, the bike was
incredible. But I could put a new pack in the truck every year for far
less than the cost of a new Prius.
I have always believed that Hybrids are the educational bridge from
gas to electric.
Most of the people I speak with at public events are not interested in
hybrids either. PHEVs -- yes, they're intrigued and interested in that as
an acceptable and fairly clever and flexible compromise solution. HEVs --
no, they seem to underwhelm many people as a kind of very marginal,
incrementalist mediocrity which doesn't change much, is completely fueled by
and dependent on petroleum, doesn't get us off oil, doesn't move us very far
from where we are now, and is seen as too little too late. Just reporting
what many people tell me at these events. Hybrids are a good step in the
right direction, but a very tiny baby step. PHEVs are the real bridge from
gas to electric; in my experience, people seem to get that and appreciate it
once you explain the concept to them and how it works. Even President Bush
and the political establishment in Washington get the PHEV concept and are
pushing it.
Maybe your cost analysis above was not as complete and comprehensive as it
could be in the proper context for most Americans. Instead of comparing the
cost of a BEV conversion to a Prius, which is a somewhat inappropriate
one-to-one comparison of apples to oranges, what you should really do is
compare the cost of a single PHEV (estimated to cost $3k more than its
non-plug-in hybrid version, in mass production) with the cost of needing to
have two vehicles -- a BEV plus an ICE. ... Because the PHEV gives you both
in the same vehicle and eliminates the need to have two vehicles -- a BEV
for daily driving and an ICE for longer trips.
Problem now is that raw battery materials are accelerating too. Maybe
horses are cheaper in the long run ;)
Yes, big problem. Rare earth metals with NiMH, getting even rarer and more
expensive in the face of escalating demand; only two companies in the world
that process them for NiMH batts, both in China, I believe. ECD/Ovonics,
which together with Chevron controls the worldwide production of NiMH batts,
recently bought a minority share in one of those two Chinese companies.
Cobalt with lithium batts, also relatively rare and expensive, getting more
so all the time, again in the face of escalating demand. Lithium battery
manufacturers are trying to reduce and move away from cobalt (which also
accounts for much of lithium batteries' instability & volatility) to some
extent by partially substituting other metals in various combinations --
nickel, manganese, aluminum, phosphate, and others.
Charles Whalen
Florida EAA
Mike
San Jose EAA President
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], "Charles Whalen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Way to go on the article!
Here in Florida, we have found that having an active EAA chapter and
website
helps, and then of course the escalating price of gasoline is the
main force
and impetus that drives the public and the media to our website, who
then
request interviews. In just the last week, we have had two newspaper
articles, two TV news stories, and one radio interview of our members
regarding EVs in Florida and the Florida EAA. And more requests for TV,
radio, and newspaper interviews are now pouring in. Once the ball gets
rolling, it just seems to feed on itself and gather up momentum and take
off. Also, getting your EAA chapter organized to exhibit your EVs
at local
events is another big publicity driver. We are displaying our EVs
at 4 big
South Florida events over the course of two weeks (which we are in the
middle of right now), speaking and showing off our EVs to hundreds
of people
at each one.
By the way, someone else said something about mentioning PHEVs at public
events. I wholeheartedly agree with this and spend a lot of time
educating
people about PHEVs at these public events. BEVs, at least in their
present
form, even 120-mile rangers like mine and like Steve's, just don't
seem to
do it for a lot of folks, no matter how hard you try to make all of
those
persuasive arguments about how most Americans drive 30 miles a day
or less
on average. I do know a few people who drive more, like my brother who
drives 160 miles a day and now uses my 13 year old Honda Civic @ 40
mpg for
that commute, which I gave him after I got our two RAV4-EVs,
doubling the
economy of his 20mpg Volvo, which was burning a big hole in his
wallet and
now sits unused in his driveway, but many people I talk to at these
public
events claim likewise, that they are all driving 250 miles up to Tampa 3
weekends a month and stuff like that. Everyone seems to think they
need a
300-mile range car, no matter what you tell them. I guess no one is
-- or
wants to be -- an "average" American. What was it about that school
where
all the children are above average? :-) So when I start telling these
people about PHEVs and how plugging them in is optional and they can
still
do their 250 mile trips every weekend and how Toyota is working on a
plug-in
Prius for the 2008-2009 model year timeframe, they really get that
and feel
that it would be perfect for them. No need for a second car, and
they can
do most of their driving during the week in electric-only mode, *IF*
they
choose to. But if they're too tired or lazy or forget to plug in at
night,
no problem, they just pay for gasoline. The more expensive gasoline
becomes, the more motivation they will have to remember to plug in
at night.
My experience in talking with dozens of people about this is that
they seem
to really like the idea of a PHEV because it is so flexible and
gives them
choices and options in a single vehicle.
Best regards,
Charles Whalen
Florida EAA
www.floridaeaa.org
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ryan Bohm" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, April 26, 2006 11:40 AM
Subject: Thoughts on getting publicity
> Hi Everyone,
>
> Bill Dennis and I are famous :)
>
> http://www.sltrib.com/utah/ci_3752061
>
> My first newspaper article in the local paper (not this one) came by
> e-mailing the paper when I saw an article on gas prices (or something
> related). I mentioned I had an electric car, and would be glad to be
> interviewed for an article. They called a few days later.
>
> This article came about by a news correspondent seeing the first
article.
>
> I feel like it's important to not only drive around our EVs and let
> neighbors/friends know, but try to get the word out further with
whatever
> means are available. Although EVs in their current state aren't a
> solution to everyone's travel needs, they present an alternative for
> some - in their current state. This isn't a technology that's 5 or 10
> years down the road...at least for those willing to convert their
own :)
>
> -Ryan
>
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--- Begin Message ---
Help! I am blowing the DC fuse on my charger. I have changed nothing
so where do I start looking?
Calvin King
81 Jet Electrica
108 volt (6 volt flooded)
K&W BC20
Thundering Springs Baptist Church
"Lifting Up the Name of Jesus"
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
John wrote:
> With the ice motor out of the way, mount the starter backward. A little
> more engineering, but shouldn't be that hard.
The stock bell housing only facilitates the starter in one way though:
http://www.veryuseful.com/mustang/tech/general/trannyRemoval/trannydrop12.jpg
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Wed, 26 Apr 2006 08:03:39 -0700, Eric Poulsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
>The rotors were comprised of a composite material that was essentially
>like thread wound onto a bobbin that was held in place by a resin --
>sort of like a wheel comprised of spindled fiberglass thread. The idea
>being that in a catastrophic rotor delamination, it would merely
>unravel. I'm not sure what form the energy would take -- heat, I
>guess. Also, the modules were designed to contain in the event of such
>a failure.
This claim by the flywheel advocates is where I start having
heartburn. I've calculated the energy release effects before but this
time I decided to it in familiar EV terms.
Let's suppose a 50KWh flywheel. That would be equivalent to a 250
volt, 200 amp-hour pack. A nice pack that would make an EV quite
practical for many people.
Suppose that this energy is explosively released, as in a flywheel
failure. How does that much energy compare to other familiar
energetic events?
I decided to put this energy release in terms of pounds of TNT. We've
all seen hand grenades and bombs explode, if not in military service
then on the news.
>From reference material, I find that TNT releases about 15KJ per gram
or about 4 kilocalories per gram. Using a units conversion program I
convert that to 4.1667 watt-hours per gram.
If 50KWh is released essentially instantly, that is, explosively, then
that works out to 50KWh /4.1667 WH/gm = 12,000 grams = the explosion
of 12kg of TNT. Twelve kilograms is 5.45 lbs.
Thus, a 50KWh flywheel disintegrating releases the same explosive
energy as about five and a half pounds of TNT.
To put this in perspective, a standard WW-II "pineapple" US hand
grenade:
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/policy/army/fm/3-23-30/appf.htm
Contained 55 grams of TNT. The flywheel releases 12,000/55 = 218 hand
grenade's worth of explosive energy.
The modern M26 hand grenade that looks like a green orange (on that
same page above.) contains 170 grams equiv of TNT. Thus one flywheel
explosion is equivalent to 12,000/170 = 7 M26 hand grenades.
In other words, a 50KWh flywheel disassembling itself would result in
a big-assed explosion :-(
Even if they somehow figure out how to slow the disintegration (I
can't imagine how but play along) so that it takes place over, say, a
second, 50KWh released inside the container will still vaporize the
contents and burst the housing from pressure. It won't be a high
explosion but it WILL be an explosion similar to a steam or black
powder explosion. A seriously large one.
Almost any failure mechanism (flywheel burst, bearing failure,
generator rotor failure, vacuum failure, etc) one can anticipate
results in explosive energy release, something even the most energetic
battery chemistry doesn't face. I just don't see the application fit
in the mobile environment where weight considerations preclude any
sort of containment vessel.
I had my first net.discussion in this area back in the mid-80s when
the Internet was still a wee pup. The flywheel advocates tried to
wave their arms and make this problem go away back then and 20 years
later I don't see that anything has changed. I'm neither pro- or
anti-flywheel. I'm simply trying to evaluate the risk involved in
that sort of energy release.
I'm NOT a flywheel expert nor a materials nor a kinetics expert so I
quite possibly could be wrong in concept or have made a math mistake
and I welcome corrections. But I don't think I'm wrong.
John
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.johngsbbq.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
Don't let your schooling interfere with your education-Mark Twain
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--- Begin Message ---
hi everyone!
had the state patrol inspect my car today. luckily the
inspection site is only about 6miles from my place.
unluckily though it seems my controller over heats at
about 5miles. i was only going 30mph average. why am i
over heating??? it is a zapi H2B w/regen ([EMAIL PROTECTED]).
its mounted to a 18" X 22" X 1/4" aluminum plate with
a liberal amount of heat sink compound. the plate is
getting hot as well so this suggests to me that there
is good heat transfer... im running a 8" GE on a VW
beetle trans. does anyone have suggestions? is
everyong else cooling thier controllers air/forced
air/liquid??? or should this not be running so hot at
this lower pwr output?
thanks for the input!
Brian
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Re- mount the starter on the other side so the bendix kick out will
still work?
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--- Begin Message ---
170V * 1000A = 170,000/750 = 226hp * .60(EFFIENCY) about 135HP
or
1000 amps = 240lb ft at 96volts at motor if you can keep a 96 volt
differential and stay in current limit at 100 amps for x seconds and
know the mass of your vehicle and a few more things like gear ratio and
tire diameter you can get G-forces and integrate. then take your
rpm*torque/5252 = hp
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--- Begin Message ---
Flat plates have no surface area. You need fins and probably a fan wouldn't
hurt. Fins should be about 3/8" apart and about 2 inches long. Mount the fan
over the top to blow the air into the fins and out the ends.
My opinion anyway.
Mark Grasser
----- Original Message -----
From: "brian baumel" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, April 26, 2006 10:04 PM
Subject: running hot
hi everyone!
had the state patrol inspect my car today. luckily the
inspection site is only about 6miles from my place.
unluckily though it seems my controller over heats at
about 5miles. i was only going 30mph average. why am i
over heating??? it is a zapi H2B w/regen ([EMAIL PROTECTED]).
its mounted to a 18" X 22" X 1/4" aluminum plate with
a liberal amount of heat sink compound. the plate is
getting hot as well so this suggests to me that there
is good heat transfer... im running a 8" GE on a VW
beetle trans. does anyone have suggestions? is
everyong else cooling thier controllers air/forced
air/liquid??? or should this not be running so hot at
this lower pwr output?
thanks for the input!
Brian
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Reverse rotation kits are available for many engines, I would thus
assume that reverse rotation starters shouldn't be too much a
problem. What is a problem is John's car doesn't have a flywheel or
a bell housing, so a more clever solution will have to be devised to
couple this up.
Yet another motor on the front of the Siamese 8? Okay, just a
starter motor, and it would only couple up when powered, but is there
any room left?
Thanks,
Mike Chancey,
'88 Civic EV
Kansas City, Missouri
EV List Photo Album at: http://evalbum.com
My Electric Car at: http://www.geocities.com/electric_honda
Mid-America EAA chapter at: http://maeaa.org
Join the EV List at: http://www.madkatz.com/ev/evlist.html
"Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by
stupidity."
At 09:20 PM 4/26/2006, you wrote:
Re- mount the starter on the other side so the bendix kick out will
still work?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Wed, Apr 26, 2006 at 09:50:28PM -0400, Neon John wrote:
> On Wed, 26 Apr 2006 08:03:39 -0700, Eric Poulsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
>
> >The rotors were comprised of a composite material that was essentially
> >like thread wound onto a bobbin that was held in place by a resin --
> >sort of like a wheel comprised of spindled fiberglass thread. The idea
> >being that in a catastrophic rotor delamination, it would merely
> >unravel. I'm not sure what form the energy would take -- heat, I
> >guess. Also, the modules were designed to contain in the event of such
> >a failure.
<..snip..>
>
> Suppose that this energy is explosively released, as in a flywheel
> failure. How does that much energy compare to other familiar
> energetic events?
You could be completely right in your analysis.
Having said that, it seems like you could build a flywheel which would
release its energy in a less drastic way.
Also, If you look at flywheels today, it looks like they are too heavy, don't
store enough energy, dangerous, and expensive. So I agree with your conclusion.
I still think that you may have been too harsh in your analysis, so I decided
to do a tongue in cheek analysis of the energy content in a m&m. See below for
this.
> I decided to put this energy release in terms of pounds of TNT. We've
> all seen hand grenades and bombs explode, if not in military service
> then on the news.
So, I decided to do a similar comparison.
A plain m&m weighs about .878 grams. Using the formula E=mc^2 tells us
the relationship between the mass of the m&m and its energy potential.
(.878 * 1 000) * the speed of light = 263 217 778 124 J
Now, imaging this energy is explosively released, as in a m&m failure.
263,217,778,124 joules = 73,116.0495 kilowatt hours
73,116.0495 / 4.1667 = 17,547.7115
This is the explosive force of 17 kilotons of TNT!
So, think before you eat that next m&m!
;-)
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