EV Digest 5415
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Does John really need reverse? was:White Zombie Update...360
Volts...More HP!
by Tim Brehm <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: EMB's .. Electro Mechanical Batteries
by Christopher Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: running hot
by Ralph Merwin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) blown fuse
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: running hot
by "Tom Shay" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Does John really need reverse? was:White Zombie
Update...360 Volts...More HP!
by James Massey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Does John really need reverse? was:White Zombie Update...360
Volts...More HP!
by "Tom Shay" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: running hot
by Bob Bath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) RE: New AC system option (was Re: Nissan AC conversion)
by "george.underwood" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Zilla anyone
by Seth Rothenberg <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) TEVan info needed
by "evranger" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) RE: New AC system option (was Re: Nissan AC conversion)
by "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: TEVan info needed
by Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: V28 battery (and other lithium cells)
by J Z <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Does John really need reverse? was:White Zombie Update...360
Volts...More HP!
by Jim Husted <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Now that's a hybrid
by "damon henry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: New AC system option (was Re: Nissan AC conversion)
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) RE: TEVan info needed
by "evranger" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Does John really need reverse? was:White Zombie
Update...360 Volts...More HP!
by "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Does John really need reverse? was:White Zombie
Update...360 Volts...More HP!
by "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) RE: Reverse with series motors, was: Does John really need revers
e? was:White Zombie
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Neon John wrote
"Look at how much farther ahead John is simply by
virtue of being given high performance batteries and the one-off
custom-built motor."
I can tell you first hand that these items along with most of the other
performance parts were not "just given"to him. Any of you who really know John
Wayland know he is always working on new sponsors. I have been part of the
Plasmaboy racing team for a little over a year and have seen John pull off some
amazing deals with his sponsors, but he always delivers everything he promises
to them. What you guys don't see is all the potential sponsors that turn us
away almost daily. That makes us appreciate the sponsors we have that much
more, besides I'll bet not many people building EV's in their backyard shops
would turn down free parts.
Tim Brehm
---------------------------------
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--- Begin Message ---
I'm NOT a flywheel expert nor a materials nor a kinetics expert so I
quite possibly could be wrong in concept or have made a math mistake
and I welcome corrections. But I don't think I'm wrong.
Speaking from experience, you're probably on the right track. I have
extensive experience with Digital RM series disk drives, particularly
the RM03/RP06 series.
This is (I have four of them still) a dishwasher sized disk drive that
stores a whopping 67mb of data on 5 15 inch platters. Actually it stores
the data on 2.5 platters, servo on one side of a platter and two more
are for protection. The RP06 used 10 platters if I recall correctly.
The drive spins at a speed of 3600 RPM and takes a 1 hp motor about a
minute or so to spin up to speed. I have witnessed a head crash, the
drive literally ripped the heads and the track assembly off an Al base
and wrapped it around the spindle. The 500 pound drive itself also left
a mark on the wall where it hit after jumping.
Given that a flywheel spins at a higher rate and is heavier, I would not
want to be near one when it blows a bearing.
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Brian,
When I had a Zapi controller (also H2 w/regen), I tried mounting
it to a flat plate that had 'fins' bolted onto the opposite side.
I made the fins from channel aluminum used for sliding shower
doors. The controller still got hot. Then I made a liquid-cooled
cold plate from a piece of flat stock. I have some old pictures
online at http://www.aracnet.com/~rmerwin/prizm/heatsink.html
The original flow didn't work very well so I re-plugged the holes
to make a serpintine path. This worked pretty good.
Ralph
brian baumel writes:
>
> hi everyone!
> had the state patrol inspect my car today. luckily the
> inspection site is only about 6miles from my place.
> unluckily though it seems my controller over heats at
> about 5miles. i was only going 30mph average. why am i
> over heating??? it is a zapi H2B w/regen ([EMAIL PROTECTED]).
> its mounted to a 18" X 22" X 1/4" aluminum plate with
> a liberal amount of heat sink compound. the plate is
> getting hot as well so this suggests to me that there
> is good heat transfer... im running a 8" GE on a VW
> beetle trans. does anyone have suggestions? is
> everyong else cooling thier controllers air/forced
> air/liquid??? or should this not be running so hot at
> this lower pwr output?
>
> thanks for the input!
> Brian
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I am less qualified than others on this list to answer, but will have a go
You didn't specify if it blows fuse immediately or after a bit of chargeing.
Leakage current from accumulated acid spray ?? measure from chassis to
points on pack to isolate and clean the battery tops off if you find
something.
to get it to stay on ,put a lightbulb socket in series with the line of
the charger and turn it on at a low current(if you have such control)
if the light flashes and stops the charger is probably just chargeing
it's internal capacitors but not running.
if the light comes goes dim and steady it is running and now you can get
your meter and measure from chassis ground to various points on the pack
for a live test.(be careful)
If the light comes on bright and stays that way, There may be an
internal short to ground in the charger, seek medical treatment.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Your controller shouldn't be overheating unless there is something
unusual about your situation that you haven't told us. You
haven't given any clues about possible reasons for overheating.
I'll go out on a limb and guess that you are running in 4th gear and not
downshifting to accelerate or climb hills. That can overheat the controller
and the motor, too. Use the gears to keep the motor and controller
current down. Keep the motor revs up.
----- Original Message -----
From: "brian baumel" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, April 26, 2006 7:04 PM
Subject: running hot
hi everyone!
had the state patrol inspect my car today. luckily the
inspection site is only about 6miles from my place.
unluckily though it seems my controller over heats at
about 5miles. i was only going 30mph average. why am i
over heating??? it is a zapi H2B w/regen ([EMAIL PROTECTED]).
its mounted to a 18" X 22" X 1/4" aluminum plate with
a liberal amount of heat sink compound. the plate is
getting hot as well so this suggests to me that there
is good heat transfer... im running a 8" GE on a VW
beetle trans. does anyone have suggestions? is
everyong else cooling thier controllers air/forced
air/liquid??? or should this not be running so hot at
this lower pwr output?
thanks for the input!
Brian
__________________________________________________
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 09:43 PM 26/04/06 -0500, Mike Chancey wrote:
<snip> more clever solution will have to be devised to couple this up.
Yet another motor on the front of the Siamese 8? Okay, just a starter
motor, and it would only couple up when powered, but is there any room left?
Hi Mike, John and all
I talked with John a few weeks ago about a way of re-wiring the existing
motors so that *with no additional high power contacts* he can get reverse
on the siamese pair. It requires an additional little low-voltage
controller and two little changeover contactors to reverse power the motors
with normal accelerator control, powered from the auxiliary battery. A bit
of jiggery-pokery to get the current path, but the theory works - but does
it work in the real world?
So that was why I asked the reverse question, has John been able to
implement it, and how well does it work if he has?
Regards
James
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jeff Shanab" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, April 26, 2006 7:20 PM
Subject: Re: Does John really need reverse? was:White Zombie Update...360
Volts...More HP!
Re- mount the starter on the other side so the bendix kick out will
still work?
Yes, that will work. Marine engines are often built for reverse rotation
and mount
the starter that way to avoid the need for a special starter motor.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
My DCP Raptor 600 has a fan, which rarely comes on.
The Civvy at 144 volts might see 350A, max.
My mounting plate never gets hot, and plays no role in
heat dissipation; but that's a different controller,
of course.
Best of success in finding out why. Batteries are
supposed to be our range limiter, not controller
temps...
(:-<
--- Mark Grasser <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Flat plates have no surface area. You need fins and
> probably a fan wouldn't
> hurt. Fins should be about 3/8" apart and about 2
> inches long. Mount the fan
> over the top to blow the air into the fins and out
> the ends.
>
> My opinion anyway.
>
>
>
> Mark Grasser
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "brian baumel" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
> Sent: Wednesday, April 26, 2006 10:04 PM
> Subject: running hot
>
>
> > hi everyone!
> > had the state patrol inspect my car today. luckily
> the
> > inspection site is only about 6miles from my
> place.
> > unluckily though it seems my controller over heats
> at
> > about 5miles. i was only going 30mph average. why
> am i
> > over heating??? it is a zapi H2B w/regen
> ([EMAIL PROTECTED]).
> > its mounted to a 18" X 22" X 1/4" aluminum plate
> with
> > a liberal amount of heat sink compound. the plate
> is
> > getting hot as well so this suggests to me that
> there
> > is good heat transfer... im running a 8" GE on a
> VW
> > beetle trans. does anyone have suggestions? is
> > everyong else cooling thier controllers air/forced
> > air/liquid??? or should this not be running so hot
> at
> > this lower pwr output?
> >
> > thanks for the input!
> > Brian
> >
> > __________________________________________________
> > Do You Yahoo!?
> > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam
> protection around
> > http://mail.yahoo.com
> >
>
>
'92 Honda Civic sedan, 144V (video or DVD available)!
www.budget.net/~bbath/CivicWithACord.html
____
__/__|__\ __
=D-------/ - - \
'O'-----'O'-'
Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering wheel?
Are you saving any gas for your kids?
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Wow Victor, that does sound like a deal! I will study this package as
applied to the Nissan talk to the wife about it.
Thanks Victor and all for responding about the Nissan Pulsar conversion and
Ebay Siemens/Ranger motor and keeping me on the right path from the start.
One other conversion question: The 88 Nissan Pulsar has power rack and
pinion steering. The current rack & pinion unit has leaking seals and needs
to be changed anyway. What are my options here? Do people typically change
to manual steering? (haven't researched if stock parts are available to do
this yet). Do they put on a larger steering wheel for leverage with manual
steering?
I assume the curb weight will be as heavy or heavier after conversion so
power steering may still be needed for low speed maneuvering. Is there an
efficient or "demand" electric pump or servo motor and controller I can
install so it only uses power when I crank the steering wheel?
Thanks
George Underwood
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Rethinking my earlier comments, I'm thinking maybe
I should just spring for a Zilla Z1K.
Looking at their web site, it's not clear if
they are currently available.
Does anyone have a used one?
BTW, If I use a motor that is bigger than the
minimum required for the job, will it automatically
consume more power? In theory, it will allow me
to gear up to try to find the big motor's sweet spot.
...and, raising voltage will reduce amps to get
the same power, right?...thus the desire for 156V
if it's not too heavy.
Thanks alot.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello,
I am restoring a TEVan back to life and have found a defective IO pin on
it's microcontroller chip on the logic board. I have a replacement 705B16N
micro-controller chip but have not been able to successfully read back the
EPROM contents of the one with the defective IO and transfer the program to
the new chip. Does anyone know if the source code or programming files exist
for these older TEVan controllers?
Thanks
Dave Luiz
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
George, if you go for a manual rack, make sure you get one that is made for
manual, as the ratio is often different. If you want to continue with the
power steering, pick up a used MR2 electro0hydrualic power steering pump. I
use one, quite successfully, on my New Beetle - others use them as well.
Check out my web site for more details.
http://www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/EV_IndexOtherSystems.html
Don
Don Cameron, Victoria, BC, Canada
see the New Beetle EV project www.cameronsoftware.com/ev
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of george.underwood
Sent: April 26, 2006 5:50 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: RE: New AC system option (was Re: Nissan AC conversion)
Wow Victor, that does sound like a deal! I will study this package as
applied to the Nissan talk to the wife about it.
Thanks Victor and all for responding about the Nissan Pulsar conversion and
Ebay Siemens/Ranger motor and keeping me on the right path from the start.
One other conversion question: The 88 Nissan Pulsar has power rack and
pinion steering. The current rack & pinion unit has leaking seals and needs
to be changed anyway. What are my options here? Do people typically change
to manual steering? (haven't researched if stock parts are available to do
this yet). Do they put on a larger steering wheel for leverage with manual
steering?
I assume the curb weight will be as heavy or heavier after conversion so
power steering may still be needed for low speed maneuvering. Is there an
efficient or "demand" electric pump or servo motor and controller I can
install so it only uses power when I crank the steering wheel?
Thanks
George Underwood
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have the source code but no way of programming the
MCU (although I have a a couple of tubes of unused
MCU's) Do you have a programmer? I also have several
TEVan logic boards with various states of code
programmed in them. Let me know what version of logic
board you need to get running, I can probably help.
Rod
--- evranger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hello,
>
> I am restoring a TEVan back to life and have found a
> defective IO pin on
> it's microcontroller chip on the logic board. I have
> a replacement 705B16N
> micro-controller chip but have not been able to
> successfully read back the
> EPROM contents of the one with the defective IO and
> transfer the program to
> the new chip. Does anyone know if the source code or
> programming files exist
> for these older TEVan controllers?
>
> Thanks
>
> Dave Luiz
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Milwaukee will be offering a V18 Lithium-ion later this year.
Tom Shay <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
DeWalt offers 36-volt cordless tools using batteries from A123. These
should be worthy competitors to Milwaukee's V28 tools. It'll be
interesting to see how this competition plays out.
I wonder if anyone offers a lithium-ion system for smaller cordless tools?
The 28- and 36-volt tools from Milwaukee and DeWalt are overkill for most
uses.
---------------------------------
Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Make PC-to-Phone Calls to the US (and 30+
countries) for 2ยข/min or less.
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--- Begin Message ---
Hey all
Boy there sure are a lot of you out there who care about John having reverse
huh?? lmao!! There are probably dozens of ways but just a few that would meet
the masters approval 8^ P As there's been a flurry on this thread I just
picked this one.
Mike Chancey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>What is a problem is John's car doesn't have a flywheel or
a bell housing, so a more clever solution will have to be devised to
couple this up.
>Yet another motor on the front of the Siamese 8? Okay, just a
starter motor, and it would only couple up when powered, but is there
any room left?
Nothing is fitting in front of the twins. In fact I shaved 7 full inches off
it and they just fit, so thats a no go for sure (that is unless John wants to
stab at the ground again, with that I'll make it fit attack
angle,lmao)(hehe,snort) I'm sure Wayland will cook something up if / when he
needs it but it will not be allowed to rob power from his attempt to destroy my
motors (I mean his motors, lmao)!
You might think I'm joking but I don't think John was happy last year and for
all you conspiricy peeps think about this... Wayland isn't just changing
ratios, or adding field weakening for some tug at the end, but both!, and for
the cherry on the top he gets Otmar to "okay" an extra battery for that "I'm
given it all she's got Captian" power. Add to this his statement about not
doing any local test runs and something about not wanting to beak anything
prematurely and you can see where I'm going here 8^ )
Reverse?? Hah! Johns got bigger fish to break right now. I bet him and Tim
are thinking about how to break stuff right now. Having seen Father Times
motor courpses I didn't realize what pro's these guys are, lmao.
Joliets coming and Mother hen modes full on!!
FT and I got to talk about ways to get the holder to swing the needed degrees
to reverse and it's just a matter of finding time to due it to Markos ADC8. I
can actually slide the lever to a stall without any plate mod's on the 9" I
just did for him, so not much further and it becomes a retarded reversed
direction. Waylands 8's are another matter though as he made me cram 4 times
the oem cable inside which wouldn't swing real well, lmao.
You know, you pour your heart into a motor and you find out they advertise
they intend to break it and all EVeryone can talk about is it doesn't have
reverse 8-^(
What can a motor guy do, lmao
Lawrance said it best, todays racers are tomorrows dailies.
Had fun
Cya all
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric
---------------------------------
New Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Call regular phones from your PC and save big.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
One thing that bugs me on the EVDL is the occasional bickering over what a
real hybrid is. I especially get annoyed by those who want to claim that my
Honda Insight isn't a real hybrid. Well I ran my own homemade Hybrid today,
and this one matches all the usual criteria people use to define a hybrid so
I'm sure that everyone will agree that this is a real hybrid. Actually,
being that this is the EVDL I know that at least on person will have a
contrary opinion, but I'll just ignore it :-)
My base vehicle is my old mostly broken down 1994 4.0 Litre Ford Aerostar.
I have outfitted it with a 6.7 inch ADC motor and 45 of my BB600 cells along
with a 400 amp Alltrax controller. It works like a charm. I did almost
exactly 50/50 gas and electric on my 26 mile commute this morning, then
charged at work and turned around and did the same on the way home. This
may sound like a tough thing to acomplish, but as has been pointed out on
this list many times the devil is in the details. I simply loaded my EV
motorcycle up in the back of my van and drove halfway to work, then unloaded
and rode the rest of the way...
Actually this was a test run for doing the whole thing electric, although
even then the van will have a role. I have been working on building a dump
charger to locate half way along the route, but after doing some testing
decided that swapable packs will be a better option for me. I can easily
put something together that can be swapped in 5 minutes, and the dump pack
was taking much longer than that, plus it's hard to get a good finish charge
with a dump pack. It was fun chargin at 200+ amps though :-)
I know from everyday riding, that the first half of my commute is doable on
a single charge, but I wasn't sure how much tougher the second half of the
run would be. I have a two mile very steep grade to climb to get over the
hills. I'm using back roads, so the speed limit is slower which is an
advantage as far as ahrs used, but the gearing on my EM is such that I was
worried I might overheat my motor at the lower RPMs. The motor did get hot,
but not so hot to have me worried. It all worked out, but by the time I got
to work my pack was feeling very drained, as well it should, since the
Emeter had me down more than 39 ahrs. This is from batteries that are rated
at 30 ahrs at the 1C rate. Man I love NiCads. I did have some extra weight
on board as I was carrying my charge with me and a few other things in a
backpack. The ride back from work to the van only took 35 ahrs without the
extra load. Also, at work one of my coworkers noted that my tires looked a
bit low. Duh... it's been a while since I checked them, so I had a look
when I got back home, and sure enough, they were down around 15 lbs instead
of the 30 they should be at. So I'm feeling pretty good now about this
working out long term. All I need to do now is throw together a couple of
extra battery packs and tweak things to make them a bit easier to swap out,
and I'm golden.
I had originally hoped to find a host for a charging station, but since I am
cutting it so close on range, I think I like the idea of battery swapping
better. That way, I can watch the batteries charge at home and know that
they are in good shape before I head out. I will probably start off with a
total of 3 packs, which will give me a two day cycle. On the first day I
will drive halfway, then ride the rest, charge at work, return to the van,
swap packs and come home. Charge at home drive to the van the next day,
swap packs, drive to work, charge, return to the van and drive home. If it
works out well, I may make up more packs, but right now I'm still a bit of a
fair weather rider, and I generally work from home at least one day a week,
so a two day cycle sounds about right.
I've already manged to put over 3100 electric miles on the bike without
using it to commute. If this works out well, I will be putting many more on
it over the next few months, and that frees up the Insight for my wife to
drive.
damon
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
george.underwood wrote:
Wow Victor, that does sound like a deal! I will study this package as
applied to the Nissan talk to the wife about it.
Thanks Victor and all for responding about the Nissan Pulsar conversion and
Ebay Siemens/Ranger motor and keeping me on the right path from the start.
Keep in mind, if you want sporty performance this system won't offer it.
It will be work horse for years, and commendable freeway capable
commuter, but you won't lay rubber. For that you'd need high voltage
100 kW system. Telling you right away what to expect, so you won't get
disappointed.
One other conversion question: The 88 Nissan Pulsar has power rack and
pinion steering...
Sorry, this one I don't qualify to answer.
Victor
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Rod,
Great! Yes, I bought a programmer/development board for the 705B series and
have spent many hours trying to get the precious EPROM bits read out of the
defective chips. Turns out that the uController from each of the two logic
boards that I have been working with have a problem. Fortunately, by
massaging the data that was read from each, I was able to manually put
together a programming file to try out. It appears to simulate successfully
on the IDE that came with the programming board. But, it would be nice to
check it against the source code. Are you willing to send me the source
code? The IDE has a compiler that I could generated object code with and set
if it matches my hand crafted code. I'll be trying the new programming file
on a windowed version of the chip that came with the programmer before I
blast the OTP parts I purchased. The new chips are MC68HC705B16N. A spare
logic board may be needed as several parts have smoked along the way during
debugging. Whew, I know more about this design than I ever wanted to!
Thanks
Dave
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Rod Hower
Sent: Wednesday, April 26, 2006 9:01 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: TEVan info needed
I have the source code but no way of programming the
MCU (although I have a a couple of tubes of unused
MCU's) Do you have a programmer? I also have several
TEVan logic boards with various states of code
programmed in them. Let me know what version of logic
board you need to get running, I can probably help.
Rod
--- evranger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hello,
>
> I am restoring a TEVan back to life and have found a
> defective IO pin on
> it's microcontroller chip on the logic board. I have
> a replacement 705B16N
> micro-controller chip but have not been able to
> successfully read back the
> EPROM contents of the one with the defective IO and
> transfer the program to
> the new chip. Does anyone know if the source code or
> programming files exist
> for these older TEVan controllers?
>
> Thanks
>
> Dave Luiz
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 07:14 AM 4/26/2006, you wrote:
neon john said
"Drop down a level. Look at how much farther ahead John is simply by
virtue of being given high performance batteries and the one-off
custom-built motor. ...'
Ouch, a little harsh don't you think? I think john is fast because he
bloody well worked at it. he earned the sponsership he now gets by
proving himself. he developed the dual motor in this application , the
one off custom built motr came from his lessons of blowing things up, in
the best spirit of racing.( i have a small list of blown up stuff in the
ICE world, myself)
I do however see your perspective on those rules being discussed. they
look almost silly until seen in the cost containing perspective.
The voltage divisions contain the costs (or at least
compartmentalize it.) Works very well.
Bill Dube'
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
How many times does racing have to make the same mistake before it
learns? The lesson is that unrestrained costs kills racing, no matter
what the class. Most of the so-called "restrictive rules" are
designed to contain costs, particularly in the bracket (hobby)
classes.
The voltage divisions let the competitor select the cost
level he is comfortable with. Low voltage vehicles cost less than
high voltage vehicles. All the big bucks cluster at the high
voltages. Simple, effective, works very well, just as it is.
How does banning "non-dealer" fender flares contain costs?
Even at the pro level, one runs out of finger counting the series that
have been killed or nearly killed because of unrestrained costs that
loose rules permitted.
When you attempt to restrict the rules to constrain costs,
you generally end up prohibiting the sensible, low cost ways of going
faster. This leaves only the ridiculously expense and nearly
impractical ways of going faster. An classic example is when they
acid etch the stock body panels to make them slightly thinner. It is
insanely expensive to do, but the car becomes lighter and the body
is, indeed, still stock. It is just towards the lower end of the
thickness tolerance.
IMSA GTP
Indy Cars as we knew them.
F1
Top Fuel and Funny Car
CART
And on and on.
I'm a tuner more than a driver so I don't like having my slick, secret
new idea being restricted any more than the next guy but I also
realize that there will always be someone with a fatter checkbook who
will beat me over the head with it if the rules permit.
Even the idea of a separate cost-is-no-object, no-holds-barred class
never works for long. F1 tried that for awhile until it came down to
Honda, Honda and more Honda, with everyone else packing up and going
home. Top Fuel tried that too and it almost killed the class.
Everyone bitched and moaned when the 3.40 gear rule was put into
effect but that rule probably saved Top Fuel. Had the costs and speeds
kept accelerating like they were, Top Fuel would likely now be but a
memory.
If costs hadn't killed the class then government interference in the
name of safety would have. Legislated slow-down lane lengths,
grandstand protection from shrapnel and runaway cars, all that stuff
was on the horizon or popping up in various places.
It seems to me that EV racing is even more prone to the checkbook
racing syndrome than other types of racing simply because megabucks
can buy parts so much more superior to what the rest of us can buy
that money alone could make even the slowest driver into a winner.
That will always be the case in racing. For every way you
attempt restrict performance, there are other, more expensive ways to
get it back.
Money does not buy a fast car. It helps, but you must know
how to build a fast car with it. I've seen lots of big bucks cars
that did not perform well at all because they were not cleverly built.
Just think what you could do if you had a few million bux to work
with. Superconducting AC motors. Explosively fast primary batteries.
Screw charging, just toss 'em in the garbage after each run. Pyro
batteries, MHD generators, exotic supercap or flywheel voltage
stiffeners, the list of what megabucks can buy is endless.
Only the right combination will set a new record.
Supercaps are perfect example. All else equal, you can
easily beat a super cap car with Hawker batteries. Do a little
research, and a little math homework, and you would never bother with
super caps.
Drop down a level. Look at how much farther ahead John is simply by
virtue of being given high performance batteries and the one-off
custom-built motor.
John has off-the-shelf production batteries. His motor is
well-built, but you could do this yourself if you were clever. None
of his drive components are terribly exotic or insanely expensive.
John has done a very good job of selecting his components. He gets a
lot of bang for the buck because he is clever. He definitely does not
have deep pockets.
That's perfectly fine AT THIS POINT for an
effectively unlimited class but it's not OK for grassroots racers. EV
racing could be over with before it gets started if wallet wars get
started now.
> The very odd limitations on transmissions seems illogical to
>me. You can't use a non-stock transmission, but it is OK to remove
>the transmission completely. I saw no point in regulating the type of
>transmission, because it stifles innovation, so I suggested chopping
>this restriction completely. Also, to require a stock transmission,
>but allow the removal of the transmission, seems completely illogical to me.
That looks like a perfectly logical cost containment rule to me.
Remove the tranny if you like - a common practice on the street. That
costs almost nothing. Use the stock tranny if you like. But no $8K
Lencos or made-from-scratch CNC billet transmissions. Pretty simple
concept, really.
Except the Lenco won't do you much good in an electric.
John has tossed the transmission because he has a powerful
controller that works better than any transmission could. The fastest
EV drag racers have no transmissions. The clever racers have figured
this out. Again, when you do the math, instead of simply spending
megabucks, you win the race.
Thus, allowing no transmission is an advantage to the big
bucks racers. An expensive controller goes faster than any
transmission, no matter how much you paid for it.
>
> The requirement for carpet and headliner just seemed petty
>to me. I certainly wouldn't want to disqualify a car because it was
>missing some carpet in the back seat or didn't have a headliner. If
>my car were bounced out of the SC class for this, I think I would not
>be very happy.
Again, cost containment and probably to a lesser extent, safety. Look
what happened to NHRA street drags in the 60s when the manufacturers
decided to get involved and the rules let 'em. One year it was OK to
remove the carpet and dash and the next year we had factory "stock"
cars with acid-dipped bare bodies, aluminum foil sheetmetal, custom
lightened frame rails, one-off sand-cast blocks and heads and all the
other megabuck stuff that knocked the Saturday night racers back into
the grandstands.
Yup. Just like I said above. When you prohibit the sensible,
inexpensive ways to go faster, folks will take the only route left
available. Thus, only the folks that can afford to make insanely
expensive modifications will win.
The only folks you will exclude by requiring a headliner and
full carpet are the low-bucks racers that have converted a $200 car.
Not being involved with any rulemaking and only standing on the
outside looking in, it seems to me that the logic is that if you force
the racers to retain the heavy OEM carpet and other sound deadening
stuff then any potential gain from doing expensive and potentially
unsafe lightening things such as acid dipping won't make enough
difference to warrant the cost. With a mandatory 500 or so lbs of
upholstery and carpet on board, lightening the body and frame to shed
20 pounds doesn't help much.
No, stock carpet is not required. Thus, paper thin,
lightweight carpet and headliner could easily pass the rules. The
typical carpet and headliner weigh about 20 pounds.
One could argue for minimum weights and ballasts but it's simpler and
cheaper all around just to require the OEM stuff to remain in place.
But they aren't OEM cars in the SC class. Rules like this in
the OEM electric class make sense, but not in a conversion class.
When you install batteries, OEM portions of the car are typically
removed. Different gages must be installed. It is a "custom" car by
definition. Requiring it to be OEM "to a point" is not at all easy to
do. It may seem easy, but in practice, it is a can of worms.
John
* I don't have a horse in this race, I don't know the details of the
dispute or even the "other side's" names and don't care, and I don't
know who might be right and who might be wrong. But I do know that
your continuing sniping about "the other side" is winning you no
friends, is polarizing people against you who might otherwise support
your position, is counter-productive to whatever it is you're trying
to accomplish, is damaging to EV racing in general and is Exhibit A
for why active racers should not be on rules committees. Advisory
boards, maybe but definitely not rulemaking.
The trouble is, the only folks that know enough about EV
drag racing at this time, are active racers. There is no choice. In a
few more years, there will be some folks that used to race EVs, but
no longer do so. Until then, we are stuck with active racers.
I'll ask you a couple of tech questions and you try to answer them:
What sets the current curve on the main fuse?
What modern material is particularly unsafe for battery boxes?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I asked myself: what is the simplest way to make one series
motor reverse, without affecting its normal performance?
Then I thought: if you take a low voltage battery and connect
that via a low voltage contactor to the Field winding, such that
it sends a current through the motor >opposite< to the normal
current flow and you dimension the voltage so it allows a fixed
current of (for example) 100A through the Field windings, then
as soon as the controller sends some current through the
Armature (and the battery, not the field!) then the motor
will run in reverse.
TO protect the battery it should be run only a short period, but
for an occasional reversing action with the possibility to recharge
the battery after every dragrace run, that should be OK.
Also to protect the battery, the motor current should be limited
so the battery does not see many hundreds of amps, dependent on
how it is executed: if a single 1.2V BB600 cell is used, it can take
quite a bit of current.
If the battery consists out of a handfull of NiCd D-cells to have a
low weight, then the current better stay under 100A or so.
The simplicity of a single pole low voltage, low current contactor
to reverse Field and the absence of any modification of the
controller-to-motor wiring makes this a good solution for racing
applications.
Only drawbacks are that an odd recharge voltage is needed for the
battery, but a simple dedicated battery charger should do the trick,
and the contactor needs to break the current through the Field
winding, so that may cause some sparking, though the voltage is
very low.
Regards,
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: Cor van de Water
Sent: Wednesday, April 26, 2006 4:25 PM
To: 'ev@listproc.sjsu.edu'
Subject: Reverse with series motors, was: Does John really need reverse?
was:White Zombie
There is a way to add reverse to a setup with series motors
without affecting the main current path (so not additional
resistance/cable/contactors) are in the main (forward) drive.
Essentially it needs an additional 2-pole contactor near the
motor(s) to temporarily shunt the field and armature in
anti-parallel to the controller.
This is very inefficient as a drive, but you are not racing
backwards, so that is no problem.
This solution can be used on single as well as on siamese
series setups.
On single motor it is easy:
If one side of the Armature is connected to the +motor
output of the controller, then:
- the extra contactor has one pole connecting the other
side or the Armature winding (and one side of the Field)
to the -motor output of the controller, and
- the other pole of the extra contactor runs the other
side of the Field also to the +motor output of the
controller.
The current through the Field winding is now reversed and
the motor runs backwards, controlled by the accelerator
and the flip of a 'reverse' switch to disable the normal
contactor(s) (especially in a series/parallel setup) and
enable the extra reverse contactor.
If the (extra) contactor sits right next to the motor(s)
then there are only short and light cables to the motor(s)
needed, as reversing is not done for a long run, so 2 AWG
cables should work fine and all but one connections can be
taken from the motor(s):
- hook up to the Field-Armature series wire(s)
- hook up to both motor feeding wires
Only the -motor output in above example needs to be taken
from the other side of the main contactor.
I realize that most will not have their main contactor in
the motor loop on a single motor setup, this idea started
from the twin motor with series/parallel switching as
shown in the clipped text from an earlier email below my sig.
Still it can be done for a single motor as well.
I have another idea to avoid the main contactor in the motor
wiringa nd still get reverse drive, but I'll describe that
in a separate posting.
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
Below is part the email I sent some months ago about
reverse with 2 series motors:
-------------------------------------------------------
Anti-parallel reverse idea:
This idea does not change the number of contactors or
resistance of your main drive setup but depends on
you having two motors and external access to the
connection between field and armture winding and will
use the series motors in a much less efficient parallel
motor setup, but since you won't be racing backwards,
this setup may work for you, in particular when you have
the two motors with the field coils attached to the
series contactor (note: you can randomly select in which
order the Field and Armature windings are connected, as
long as the current runs the same direction through both
then the motor will run identical).
The usual setup for a series connection (omitting the
two parallel-switching contactors for clarity) is:
+ motor1 series motor2 -
with + and - the controller's motor outputs and
with "series" the series contactor.
Now lets split each motor in its Armature and Field
windings:
+ Armature1 Field1 series Field2 Armature2 -
We see that as soon as the "series" contactor closes,
the same current runs through all of the windings.
Now assume that we add two extra contactors, each
running from the connection between a motor's Field
and Armature winding to the opposite motor-output
of the controller: (X1 and X2 are the contactors)
+ Armature1 \ Field1 series Field2 / Armature2 -
\ X1 - + X2 /
You can see that when the contactors close the
connections and voltages on the windings are reversed
for the two Field windings:
+ Armature1 - Field1 series Field2 + Armature2 -
In other words: when both X1, X2 as well as the series
contactor are closed, the two motors are running in
reverse, with the two Armature windings parallel across
the controller and the series of the two Field windings
also parallel to the two Armature windings, but with
current in the opposite direction.
This means that a lot of current will be drawn, mostly
by the low resistance Field windings (that's why they
better be in series to double the resistance and allow
twice as much current through the Armature) but still
it will need a good current-limiter in the controller!
The beauty is that you do not need to add motors, only
2 very short cables and 2 contactors, bolting right
onto the motors themselves. In addition, you can
control the "reverse" drive with the accelerator pedal,
through the controller.
If you are not sure if the parallel-switched motor
setup will deliver enough power (ie not short the
controller before moving the car) then you can
easily rig it up with 2 short cables WITHOUT even
bothering about the contactors and test the reverse
drive to see if you have some power.
My guess is that you have only about 10% of the
forward power in reverse, due to the unbalanced
current, mostly flowing through the Field windings.
You would have a very clean setup though, no need
for big cables into the cabin, only one additional
control line to the two additional contactors.
--- End Message ---
